and yet another piece of the puzzle falls into place. so much for free trade. and if one of golfs major sponsors was threatened with a law that would disable them from being sponsors anymore, a lot of very rich people would get upset and throw a tissy (along with some money) and get just what they want. again, physics.... objects at rest tend to stay at rest. pool aint going nowhere, i wish it werent true, but it is. again again, building pool is as likely as golf or tennis collapsing (ie pretty much impossible).
"Ideas on how to improve our great game"
- Thread starter Gerry
- Start date
and yet another piece of the puzzle falls into place. so much for free trade. and if one of golfs major sponsors was threatened with a law that would disable them from being sponsors anymore, a lot of very rich people would get upset and throw a tissy (along with some money) and get just what they want. again, physics.... objects at rest tend to stay at rest. pool aint going nowhere, i wish it werent true, but it is. again again, building pool is as likely as golf or tennis collapsing (ie pretty much impossible).
They don't have to sponsor pool, just pay the people providing the stream.
For the sport to grow, there are several areas that need to be address.
The first is getting more and, more improtant younger people, into the sport.
Second are room standards plus easier access to pool tables. There are some areas of the country where there are no places to play pool, but the other sports are not a issue. And in some areas, the pool rooms are not family, healthly freindly. By this I mean, the pool rooms are really bars with tables and smoking is still allowed. I learned because of the towns rec center had pool table and not just one.
I have a BCA rule book from 1970. The tournament section is covers from about 1896 to 1970. It is surprsing to see how money colleges used to play pool sports, plus the Boy Club of America.
Third is that every pool room I been is not fan friendly for watching pool. I was at the 9 ball tourney at Cal Billiards recently. Because of the size of the event, meaniing the number of players, there was no where to really sit and be able to watch the action. If anyone remembers the old Cal Billiards, they had a gallery area with stepped seating. And this is not a slam on Cal at all, just a observation and one that applies to every pool room I've been too. Plus Cal is one of the better places that has room.
This is one reason the other sports have grown. In regards to Nascar, the track owners realized if that put on a show and CHARGED people to come watch that show, they would make money. Then the drivers and team owners said, "Hey the only reason you are making money is because of our show, so pay us more or there are no shows."
The track owners then said, "Well without us you can't put on the show." See how this works. So in order to pay more out, the track owners started CHARGING more to let people see the show.
Then, since the track owners were not paying enough team owners went looking for sponsors. The sponsors ask well what's in for me. Answers was well, I run up front in the pack before a CROWD of xxx amount of people and at some races are on tv where your sponsorship will been seen by MILLIONS. Thats got to be worth something so they got some money to offset the operating cost.
Sorry got off tanget there. But this is true of most of the Pro Sports.
Anway FWIW.
The first is getting more and, more improtant younger people, into the sport.
Second are room standards plus easier access to pool tables. There are some areas of the country where there are no places to play pool, but the other sports are not a issue. And in some areas, the pool rooms are not family, healthly freindly. By this I mean, the pool rooms are really bars with tables and smoking is still allowed. I learned because of the towns rec center had pool table and not just one.
I have a BCA rule book from 1970. The tournament section is covers from about 1896 to 1970. It is surprsing to see how money colleges used to play pool sports, plus the Boy Club of America.
Third is that every pool room I been is not fan friendly for watching pool. I was at the 9 ball tourney at Cal Billiards recently. Because of the size of the event, meaniing the number of players, there was no where to really sit and be able to watch the action. If anyone remembers the old Cal Billiards, they had a gallery area with stepped seating. And this is not a slam on Cal at all, just a observation and one that applies to every pool room I've been too. Plus Cal is one of the better places that has room.
This is one reason the other sports have grown. In regards to Nascar, the track owners realized if that put on a show and CHARGED people to come watch that show, they would make money. Then the drivers and team owners said, "Hey the only reason you are making money is because of our show, so pay us more or there are no shows."
The track owners then said, "Well without us you can't put on the show." See how this works. So in order to pay more out, the track owners started CHARGING more to let people see the show.
Then, since the track owners were not paying enough team owners went looking for sponsors. The sponsors ask well what's in for me. Answers was well, I run up front in the pack before a CROWD of xxx amount of people and at some races are on tv where your sponsorship will been seen by MILLIONS. Thats got to be worth something so they got some money to offset the operating cost.
Sorry got off tanget there. But this is true of most of the Pro Sports.
Anway FWIW.
Free Lessons
For pool to be enjoyed at all, one must have a basic skill-set( stance,bridge,aim.stroke,etc.). I work in large room and see people shoot for a while and make VERY few balls. In order to keep and hopefully add players,lessons of some sort are vital. Whether its a school such as RandyG's or informal free group lessons,the main thing is to supply the basics required to move forward. Just a little help may turn raw ball-bangers into addicts like the rest of us.
For pool to be enjoyed at all, one must have a basic skill-set( stance,bridge,aim.stroke,etc.). I work in large room and see people shoot for a while and make VERY few balls. In order to keep and hopefully add players,lessons of some sort are vital. Whether its a school such as RandyG's or informal free group lessons,the main thing is to supply the basics required to move forward. Just a little help may turn raw ball-bangers into addicts like the rest of us.
How about a show where a struggling musician/ band travels from club to club to open mic nite and tries to sell shirts and cd's.
Where is your interest now?
We care about pool coz we like pool. We are NOT representative oif the gen pop!
That's when I reach for my revolver
That's when it all gets blown away
That's when I reach for my revolver
The spirit fights to find its way
Where is your interest now?
We care about pool coz we like pool. We are NOT representative oif the gen pop!
That's when I reach for my revolver
That's when it all gets blown away
That's when I reach for my revolver
The spirit fights to find its way
I would love to see more recreational players in pool halls. IMO the recreational players are the life blood of a pool hall. The more recreational players that frequent a Pool Hall, the better the chance of those players will want to buy cues, instructional books and videos/cds.
When these recreational players introduce more players into the industry, the better the industy is doing. More cues, tables, instructional materials/instructors and proven ways for the recreational playere to improve and succeed in local tournaments.
The path needs to be there for the recreational player to easily progress into a better player. IMO, Pool skills are not easily learned by just playing.
Of course the junior programs would help, but there are a lot of recreational players in their late teens and early 20s that give up learning the game other than just playing recreationally.
When these recreational players introduce more players into the industry, the better the industy is doing. More cues, tables, instructional materials/instructors and proven ways for the recreational playere to improve and succeed in local tournaments.
The path needs to be there for the recreational player to easily progress into a better player. IMO, Pool skills are not easily learned by just playing.
Of course the junior programs would help, but there are a lot of recreational players in their late teens and early 20s that give up learning the game other than just playing recreationally.
Although a lot of the suggestions in this thread are nice, they are not practical. We can't keep patching the problems, it just makes a bigger and bigger mess. The game needs to be cut down to it's very core, and then rebuilt from the ground up.
People may think that rebuilding the game is an unachievable task, but I strongly feel that the troubled economy presents a unique opportunity. While both the economy and the sport are in the dumps, we have an ideal opportunity to create new rules, a proper game, a new vision, a marketable TV format, and then unify it. Then, when and IF the economy picks up, the game can rise up.
Sure, I may be dreaming, but I honestly think it's possible. I even know just the man who could make it happen.
People may think that rebuilding the game is an unachievable task, but I strongly feel that the troubled economy presents a unique opportunity. While both the economy and the sport are in the dumps, we have an ideal opportunity to create new rules, a proper game, a new vision, a marketable TV format, and then unify it. Then, when and IF the economy picks up, the game can rise up.
Sure, I may be dreaming, but I honestly think it's possible. I even know just the man who could make it happen.
Perhaps somebody's gotta do it, man!
Look at groups like the IHRA...compare to pool and tell me which has the greater barrier to competiveness?
I get the feeling that the guy/s that started the IHRA are pretty well off.
Look at groups like the IHRA...compare to pool and tell me which has the greater barrier to competiveness?
I get the feeling that the guy/s that started the IHRA are pretty well off.
A lot of things changed during the last two decades. What happened in Europe reflects worldwide at some level:
When most of us amateur players started playing back then, there was no internet, no widespread info, just the best players to watch.
We fell in love with the game by watching guys like Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thomas Engert and whatever tape fell in our hands about the feared "semigods" across the atlantic like Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe ,etc.
Most of us studied the game at professional level even though we never intented to make a living out of it. We just played in order to pursue excellence and perform shots like the pros we admired!
We have spent money on this game we will never collect back just to have the pleasure to compete against champions and give our best, even pull out victories over them some times!
The pros were protected by being placed accordingly to the brackets so they would only meet at the later stages of a tournament. This led to the same persons repeated at the winning ceromonies and after time when most of us other players could not maintain our expenses without getting anything back participations decreased more and more...
In order to overcome this problem the people in charge decided to alter the rules of the game (for e.g. alternate break) to the extent that would allow surprises to happen. This boosted participations again and the sport managed to survive.
In long term the better players survived but the game would never be the same again..
Middle range level has risen dramatically due to access to valuable info, champions are not so protected anymore and not always the better player wins..
Unlike other sports, unlike Snooker you can meet with a world champion at a tournament just by paying your entrance fee.
But we forgot: Petros and every Petros has not earned the right to play against Earl Strickland!!!
You do not just go and play with Ronnie O'Sullivan at Snooker even if you are King of Saudi Arabia and have all the money in the world!!!
-Top separate premier leagues should be formed in USA, Europe, Asia by the federations with support from the industry
-Only the top players should play in those leagues, only to each other.
-They should receive salary by entering such a league, by contract which will clarify their rights (profits, benefits) and obligations (drug free, bet free, charity apearances for promotion of the sport, behaviour etc..)
-Rules should return to Texas express era + time per shot to ensure victory only for the best!!! 9ball remains the undisputed tv king for Pool.
-Premier league players should be represented and a manager should advise constantly how they appear/behave and how the events should be covered/advertised!!!
-Sponsors will be approachead only with the highest quality of material this way, and the title of the world championship should be claimed every year by the players with the top results from every league. This also clarifies instantly who participates in Mosconi cup teams and an Asian team should be part of this too!!!
This will create a true higher class of players which everybody else will look up to!!! Young people will have again Pool legends to admire by this distance!!!
The rest of us will have to struggle for entering such a league. Playing in amateur leagues with appropiate prices and waiting to be invited by those leagues by people who will be watching!!
That way players will not stop (after a few years of frustation...) spending money on the sport since they will have a true goal!!!
This could be the first series of measures that could really promote Pool.
The way Mosconi cup is addressed will never give Pool the oportunity to reach the enormous potential it has worldwide...
Federations and the Industry will have to change their philosophy and look beyond just tomorrow...
Thanks again for this thread, hope this will lead the right ears into consideration.
Petros
When most of us amateur players started playing back then, there was no internet, no widespread info, just the best players to watch.
We fell in love with the game by watching guys like Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet, Thomas Engert and whatever tape fell in our hands about the feared "semigods" across the atlantic like Nick Varner, Mike Sigel, Jim Rempe ,etc.
Most of us studied the game at professional level even though we never intented to make a living out of it. We just played in order to pursue excellence and perform shots like the pros we admired!
We have spent money on this game we will never collect back just to have the pleasure to compete against champions and give our best, even pull out victories over them some times!
The pros were protected by being placed accordingly to the brackets so they would only meet at the later stages of a tournament. This led to the same persons repeated at the winning ceromonies and after time when most of us other players could not maintain our expenses without getting anything back participations decreased more and more...
In order to overcome this problem the people in charge decided to alter the rules of the game (for e.g. alternate break) to the extent that would allow surprises to happen. This boosted participations again and the sport managed to survive.
In long term the better players survived but the game would never be the same again..
Middle range level has risen dramatically due to access to valuable info, champions are not so protected anymore and not always the better player wins..
Unlike other sports, unlike Snooker you can meet with a world champion at a tournament just by paying your entrance fee.
But we forgot: Petros and every Petros has not earned the right to play against Earl Strickland!!!
You do not just go and play with Ronnie O'Sullivan at Snooker even if you are King of Saudi Arabia and have all the money in the world!!!
-Top separate premier leagues should be formed in USA, Europe, Asia by the federations with support from the industry
-Only the top players should play in those leagues, only to each other.
-They should receive salary by entering such a league, by contract which will clarify their rights (profits, benefits) and obligations (drug free, bet free, charity apearances for promotion of the sport, behaviour etc..)
-Rules should return to Texas express era + time per shot to ensure victory only for the best!!! 9ball remains the undisputed tv king for Pool.
-Premier league players should be represented and a manager should advise constantly how they appear/behave and how the events should be covered/advertised!!!
-Sponsors will be approachead only with the highest quality of material this way, and the title of the world championship should be claimed every year by the players with the top results from every league. This also clarifies instantly who participates in Mosconi cup teams and an Asian team should be part of this too!!!
This will create a true higher class of players which everybody else will look up to!!! Young people will have again Pool legends to admire by this distance!!!
The rest of us will have to struggle for entering such a league. Playing in amateur leagues with appropiate prices and waiting to be invited by those leagues by people who will be watching!!
That way players will not stop (after a few years of frustation...) spending money on the sport since they will have a true goal!!!
This could be the first series of measures that could really promote Pool.
The way Mosconi cup is addressed will never give Pool the oportunity to reach the enormous potential it has worldwide...
Federations and the Industry will have to change their philosophy and look beyond just tomorrow...
Thanks again for this thread, hope this will lead the right ears into consideration.
Petros
that also happened to snooker in the UK, now the $$$ is less than half what it was a few years ago.
There is no solution to make pool a big sport, enjoy it for what it is.
This....safeties get people changing the channel....that, and slow play.....on top of the genius TV producers that somehow flash from game 2 to game 5.....
Oh, and for the record, poker sucks.....it's boring.....if you want something more exciting, deal drugs.....real money, real excitement, real danger
I have thought this same thing, with all the reality shows on now, who wants to watch cake wars? There is actually an audience for that?
I remember when bike gangs where a bad thing, now there is "Sons of Anarchy", I would bet Harley sales are up.
I do think it could be done as you said, follow around some players, then have them meet up for a big payday..
I was in the pool hall Saturday and 2 of my students (from the jr high billiards club) were there. One kid brought in 3 friends to play and the other brought in his Dad. The dad told me his son was teaching him to play. Made me feel hopeful anyway.
UPA League of Champions.
I have recently became a part of this league and it sounds like they are really trying to improve the sport. I have played in BCA, APA and TAP and this appears to be the best one. I believe with their nationally ranked system and getting rid of the sandbagging is huge. Not only are you competing within your division of players but you see how you compare with everyone across the states. It forces people to play to their potential. It's definately a league for the serious player. It also contributes to the boys and girls club in Phoenix, attempting to get the kids involved at an earlier age. I do think this is a huge start in bringing the professionals and amateurs together.
I have recently became a part of this league and it sounds like they are really trying to improve the sport. I have played in BCA, APA and TAP and this appears to be the best one. I believe with their nationally ranked system and getting rid of the sandbagging is huge. Not only are you competing within your division of players but you see how you compare with everyone across the states. It forces people to play to their potential. It's definately a league for the serious player. It also contributes to the boys and girls club in Phoenix, attempting to get the kids involved at an earlier age. I do think this is a huge start in bringing the professionals and amateurs together.
I agree a broad, bottom up approach will be required if we want to see the game changed. I also think that anything (movies or reality shows) that focuses on the money matches or gambling side of it won't help sponsorships down the road. It's fun to romanticize that (very real) part of the game, but that's all the general public thinks about when they think about pool. I have four ideas that could help:
1. Agree with Petros Andrikop about the European model, forming a premier league and allowing other upper level leagues/tours to feed into it. If you qualify to play premier league, you have to stay qualified...points drop, you drop and have to re-compete to get back in next season. Someone would have to sponsor/act as governing body for this, but once it's up and established, should draw bigger sponsorship.
2. The reality show angle is a great one, IMHO. Do it on SPIKE TV. Joe Rogan could pitch it and host it, since he's been involved in MMA related reality stuff and is a player, too...Just like MMA and that show with the boxers, you'd have two teams of high quality amateurs, male and female, each team coached/mentored by a HOF player (I'd pick Mike Segel and Nick Varner, as their careers span a couple of generations of players; although you could pick coaches that have a "history" for more color). Each team lives in their own Big Brother house, lots of shots of practice, woofing and sweating out their upcoming match. Coaches talking about the game, the prospects of their team, some anecdote stuff. Players get eliminated in race to nine 9 ball. Could have weekly cameos by top players stopping by. The winner gets sponsored and seeded in the next U.S. Open...his/her matches in the Open get covered as part of the show. You have to get the audience to care about their "favorite" player, to keep pulling them in each week to root for them, or it won't work. Compelling back stories won't hurt, either.
3. Like snooker in the UK, we really need to use the power of the compelling characters that we have. A documentary on Showtime or HBO...follow Early Strickland around for three/four months, everything from practice, appearances, regional tourneys, culiminating in one of the big tourneys. He's far and away the most compelling guy in our game to do a serious documentary on...lots of interview/comments from Earl about his game, the game in general, the fans, other players, etc.
Could get a lot of commentary on Earl from a lot of sources. Now's a good time to catch him, as he's reinventing his game.
4. Would be nice to have another "Color of Money" come along and get the next generation (and some of us older guys) excited about the game. I think I'd personally like to see something a little less dark or less about gambling, though...maybe a bio pic directed by and starred in by Clint Eastwood on the last 15/20 years of Irving Crane's life...a guy pushing 70 wins a World title is about as compelling as it gets, and it would focus more attention on the tournament part of game. Could have lots of flashbacks and as much star power as you want, depending on the script.
1. Agree with Petros Andrikop about the European model, forming a premier league and allowing other upper level leagues/tours to feed into it. If you qualify to play premier league, you have to stay qualified...points drop, you drop and have to re-compete to get back in next season. Someone would have to sponsor/act as governing body for this, but once it's up and established, should draw bigger sponsorship.
2. The reality show angle is a great one, IMHO. Do it on SPIKE TV. Joe Rogan could pitch it and host it, since he's been involved in MMA related reality stuff and is a player, too...Just like MMA and that show with the boxers, you'd have two teams of high quality amateurs, male and female, each team coached/mentored by a HOF player (I'd pick Mike Segel and Nick Varner, as their careers span a couple of generations of players; although you could pick coaches that have a "history" for more color). Each team lives in their own Big Brother house, lots of shots of practice, woofing and sweating out their upcoming match. Coaches talking about the game, the prospects of their team, some anecdote stuff. Players get eliminated in race to nine 9 ball. Could have weekly cameos by top players stopping by. The winner gets sponsored and seeded in the next U.S. Open...his/her matches in the Open get covered as part of the show. You have to get the audience to care about their "favorite" player, to keep pulling them in each week to root for them, or it won't work. Compelling back stories won't hurt, either.
3. Like snooker in the UK, we really need to use the power of the compelling characters that we have. A documentary on Showtime or HBO...follow Early Strickland around for three/four months, everything from practice, appearances, regional tourneys, culiminating in one of the big tourneys. He's far and away the most compelling guy in our game to do a serious documentary on...lots of interview/comments from Earl about his game, the game in general, the fans, other players, etc.
Could get a lot of commentary on Earl from a lot of sources. Now's a good time to catch him, as he's reinventing his game.4. Would be nice to have another "Color of Money" come along and get the next generation (and some of us older guys) excited about the game. I think I'd personally like to see something a little less dark or less about gambling, though...maybe a bio pic directed by and starred in by Clint Eastwood on the last 15/20 years of Irving Crane's life...a guy pushing 70 wins a World title is about as compelling as it gets, and it would focus more attention on the tournament part of game. Could have lots of flashbacks and as much star power as you want, depending on the script.
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It's nothing that hasn't been said before, but the one thing that would benefit pool the most is organization. No other sport is so haphazard in terms of rules. Rules vary from tournament to tournament, and room to room. If I'm playing in the club tournament at my local golf course I'm pretty much playing the exact same rules the guys on the tour are playing. Consistency breeds familiarity. Pool should follow this example. There's often just way too much meddling (jump cues no jump cues, tips on break cues, rack a certain way, balls past the side pocket, etc etc etc). Maybe an organized professional tour could come along following those rules later, but that is really another can of worms entirely.
The other big issue is people having places to play to get interested in the game. I love pool, but it's a struggle for me to find a place to play and practice. The only places reasonbly close to me without having to drive at least 30 minutes to the other side of the city are bars with bar tables. They are fun shoot around on with friends, but it's not the atmosphere where I could really improve my game. Unfortunately such ventures just may not make economic sense right now, but I believe if done properly and marketed as a cheap form of entertainment it could go nicely.
The other big issue is people having places to play to get interested in the game. I love pool, but it's a struggle for me to find a place to play and practice. The only places reasonbly close to me without having to drive at least 30 minutes to the other side of the city are bars with bar tables. They are fun shoot around on with friends, but it's not the atmosphere where I could really improve my game. Unfortunately such ventures just may not make economic sense right now, but I believe if done properly and marketed as a cheap form of entertainment it could go nicely.
Sponsorship would help, but why just tobacco companies. Isn't their advertising regulated in the states nowadays anyway. How about Brunswick. They should have an obvious interest in promoting the game. Or any other company with an advertising budget and a good or service to peddle.
Also, What is wrong with pool is not the game (of which there are many), but the lack of coordination amongst industry "leaders" and no functional governing body that is worth a damn.
Pool needs consistency of purpose most of all.
Players talk about player's organizations, then go out and "match up" in unsanctioned gambling events. Do you see NBA players playing pick up games for $10,000? No, their players associations would not allow it.
I am not against gambling matches, but pool and pool players are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be a league like other pro sports, they want to play tourneys like poker, and they want to match up on their own (and in public) when they feel like it.
Pool needs strong leadership and the support of the players who will buy into it. Pool needs a direction about what it should ultimately be. It seems like there are a few directions it could go:
-Professional league (like baseball, football, hockey, etc.) with a season, playoff, and champion
-Poker with a series of tournaments and no "higher cause" like playoffs/champions
-Motorsports with a series of tournaments adding up to points and the crowning of a series champion
-Fighting: King of the hill type deal where matchups are made and players have to work their way up to champion
I think following a motorsports type model fits the nature of pool well. It would require only a little bit of change and give fans the higher goal to keep them interested in each tournament (i.e. "I'm glad SVB was able to place third in the tourney because he moves up to number 2 in the series points lead. A finish of 2nd or higher in the next one and he will probably move up to number 1. I can't wait.").
Players talk about player's organizations, then go out and "match up" in unsanctioned gambling events. Do you see NBA players playing pick up games for $10,000? No, their players associations would not allow it.
I am not against gambling matches, but pool and pool players are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be a league like other pro sports, they want to play tourneys like poker, and they want to match up on their own (and in public) when they feel like it.
Pool needs strong leadership and the support of the players who will buy into it. Pool needs a direction about what it should ultimately be. It seems like there are a few directions it could go:
-Professional league (like baseball, football, hockey, etc.) with a season, playoff, and champion
-Poker with a series of tournaments and no "higher cause" like playoffs/champions
-Motorsports with a series of tournaments adding up to points and the crowning of a series champion
-Fighting: King of the hill type deal where matchups are made and players have to work their way up to champion
I think following a motorsports type model fits the nature of pool well. It would require only a little bit of change and give fans the higher goal to keep them interested in each tournament (i.e. "I'm glad SVB was able to place third in the tourney because he moves up to number 2 in the series points lead. A finish of 2nd or higher in the next one and he will probably move up to number 1. I can't wait.").
Mlalum get these fools.
I would personally like a video game. I drive laps in Gran Turismo, play FIFA, Madden, and NBA Live. Let me get a video game out of this whole pool deal.
I would personally like a video game. I drive laps in Gran Turismo, play FIFA, Madden, and NBA Live. Let me get a video game out of this whole pool deal.