If Bonus Ball fails...

[Blue Hog ridr]

Gary, Pool did have a relative strong future in the past. If you read a few example of the past mistakes made in Jay's book, it makes you wonder what the heck players were thinking of.

Recently, the APB was formed and faded just as quickly. I believe one of the things that is needed for a start is an organization with a strong representation of the players and all that are involved in the industry.

The name Mark Griffin comes to mind. There are others that are heavily involved. They can't do everything by themselves. So far, it seems that the players are hanging in the wings waiting for someone else to do the work for them. Could probably say, As usual.

As much as you can say or not say about BB. Larry is another that has a dream and is trying to do something however different it may be.

So far he or BB has stepped on a few toes, not the best PR thats coming Via the arena to AZ. But, if you can give the guy and his helpers credit for one thing, they're trying to do something. Is it in just Chib's best interests or does he have everyone's best interests at heart for the long run. Time will tell.

 

[Lumocolor]

I AM from these United States of America. Made in the USA, just like this forum, just like that venue where Bonus Ball is.

You seem to be very patriotic and all but america is based on the strongest surviving and squashing anything that gets in your way, but you seem to be against that when it comes to bonus ball.

Were you marching in the streets when walmart was closing every mom & pop stores in america?

May the strongest survive and the dead be buried, whether that is bonus ball or random tournaments that barely pay the bills of the top 5 finishers.

 

[Fatboy]

Who knows how it will all shake out, only time will tell

What I get a kick out of is people thinking a 50k a week negative cash flow is the end of the world. Look at the myriad of start ups funded by venture capital. There are weekly examples of companies being purchased for hundreds of millions that have never earned a single dime in profit and in fact burned millions getting started. What they have done however, is show a potential return that captures the attention of investors.

Investing $2.5mm to take a crack at owning a sport the size of pool is a reasonable concept. What is poker worth, go back a little further to professional rodeo, or maybe a little further to a bunch of rednecks running their beaters around in circles... Wow, NASCAR... That will never work. Bullshit, they each took a languishing sport, put some lipstick on it and packaged it for mass consumption.

Hell, what's next, make TV shows about bass fishing and create an industry around that... What a joke, never happen. Right?

For some people $50,000 a week ain't shit.

For a few million buying a sport is cheap , if it works. If it don't they mite not even notice the loss. I have lost well over a million CASH in the past year and change on a biz. I ain't crying. Didn't change my life one bit. Had the biz worked then it might have changed things for the better. Maybe BB is holding and can fade it. The whole world ain't broke . The broke mentality is wide in pool cause the industry for the most part is starving. But the whole world ain't broke. So maybe it just don't matter. Why people sweat other people's money so hard is beyond me. I only count my $, no time to waste on opm.

 

[CantEverWin]

To a Venture Capitalist...a few millions (maybe even a few tens of millions) may be nothing...(their thinking is, I'm sure, beyond what goes through most of our minds concerning $$$)...but that's how capitalism works, I guess...a lot of startups fail, but some do make it...and even the pundits get fooled sometimes...(also business plans can change on a daily basis if things aren't going well etc.)....

I did a google today for ESPN and Billiards...and found this book...(something like...ESPN: The Untold History...but don't quote me on that)...and it said that apparently in 1986 the network execs were surprised that even Cheerleading and Billiards could out draw Hockey sometimes then on ESPN...geez, like what can you say to that now???

If they made a TV series involving an ant colony building a new home.... It would probably draw a larger audience than hockey in America.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

something being on TV does not mean that the show makes money. Some people have payed networks to put their shows on TV. Some networks put shows on TV knowing they will draw next to no viewers. Happens all the time.

One semi recent example was the UFC paying spike to air "The ultimate fight season 1"

There's a lot of ways to do TV deals.
I believe the wsop was put on air to just fill time slots. No one ever thought poker would hit.

Seems to me BB probably could have used the UFC and poker as examples of what is possiable to investors. It probably has a very small chance of working, but the payoff could be huge, and America has shown that over time, what we enjoy watching on TV changes dramatically over a pretty short period of time.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Who knows how it will all shake out, only time will tell

What I get a kick out of is people thinking a 50k a week negative cash flow is the end of the world. Look at the myriad of start ups funded by venture capital. There are weekly examples of companies being purchased for hundreds of millions that have never earned a single dime in profit and in fact burned millions getting started. What they have done however, is show a potential return that captures the attention of investors.

Investing $2.5mm to take a crack at owning a sport the size of pool is a reasonable concept. What is poker worth, go back a little further to professional rodeo, or maybe a little further to a bunch of rednecks running their beaters around in circles... Wow, NASCAR... That will never work. Bullshit, they each took a languishing sport, put some lipstick on it and packaged it for mass consumption.

Hell, what's next, make TV shows about bass fishing and create an industry around that... What a joke, never happen. Right?

Excelent post!

 

[(((Satori)))]

If they made a TV series involving an ant colony building a new home.... It would probably draw a larger audience than hockey in America.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular.

something being on TV does not mean that the show makes money. Some people have payed networks to put their shows on TV. Some networks put shows on TV knowing they will draw next to no viewers. Happens all the time.

One semi recent example was the UFC paying spike to air "The ultimate fight season 1"

There's a lot of ways to do TV deals.
I believe the wsop was put on air to just fill time slots. No one ever thought poker would hit.

Seems to me BB probably could have used the UFC and poker as examples of what is possiable to investors. It probably has a very small chance of working, but the payoff could be huge, and America has shown that over time, what we enjoy watching on TV changes dramatically over a pretty short period of time.

Zuffa paid $2 mil. for the U.F.C., then put another $40 mil. Into it and the Fertittas were very close to throwing in the towel when that one show changed everything for them.

 

[sjm]

For some people $50,000 a week ain't shit.

For a few million buying a sport is cheap , if it works. If it don't they mite not even notice the loss. I have lost well over a million CASH in the past year and change on a biz. I ain't crying. Didn't change my life one bit. Had the biz worked then it might have changed things for the better. Maybe BB is holding and can fade it. The whole world ain't broke . The broke mentality is wide in pool cause the industry for the most part is starving. But the whole world ain't broke. So maybe it just don't matter. Why people sweat other people's money so hard is beyond me. I only count my $, no time to waste on opm.

The reason people in the pool world sweat the money of others is because of the IPT experience.

I think one of the great miscalculations at the time of the IPT was that the business would definitely last for quite some time because of Kevin Trudeau's great wealth. Yes, the money he lost in that venture was not a significant amount to him, but that was hardly the point.

The reality is that good business people are adept at quickly determining when they have backed a losing venture, and, in most cases, one of the reasons they are successful is that they are smart enough to pull the plug on ventures that fail before they take a financial bath .... and that's where the problem lies. It is of no consequence whether the millions being invested in Bonus Ball are a big or a small amount in the eyes of its investors. If good business men are behind the venture, then they will pull the plug the moment they see they have a losing proposition, just as Kevin Trudeau did with the IPT.

The IPT was not backed by the personal wealth of Kevin Trudeau or his companies. Bonus Ball is not backed by the personal assets of its investors nor is it backed by any business concern that might hold it as a subsidiary. It is only backed by the investment made in the Bonus Ball enterprise, and to be honest, I highly doubt they can or will fade it if a sustainable revenue stream isn't found with reasonable promptness.

 

[JCIN]

Who knows how it will all shake out, only time will tell

What I get a kick out of is people thinking a 50k a week negative cash flow is the end of the world. Look at the myriad of start ups funded by venture capital. There are weekly examples of companies being purchased for hundreds of millions that have never earned a single dime in profit and in fact burned millions getting started. What they have done however, is show a potential return that captures the attention of investors.

Investing $2.5mm to take a crack at owning a sport the size of pool is a reasonable concept. What is poker worth, go back a little further to professional rodeo, or maybe a little further to a bunch of rednecks running their beaters around in circles... Wow, NASCAR... That will never work. Bullshit, they each took a languishing sport, put some lipstick on it and packaged it for mass consumption.

Hell, what's next, make TV shows about bass fishing and create an industry around that... What a joke, never happen. Right?

Rodeo: People go to see the wreck. People get stomped on by horses and bulls. Combine that with the whole cowboy mystique of America and not hard to see how that works out. Hell the PBR just ditched all the other events and went straight with what jacks people up the most because it sells. One neat tidbit about the PBR was how it started:

"The organization began in 1992 through the efforts of 21 professional bull riders, who gathered in a hotel room in Scottsdale, Arizona and each contributed $1000"

Seems to me someone right here on this very forum has a similar idea.

NASCAR: People go to see the wreck plus there is little thing called the auto industry that was a natural fit and eventually came on board.

Also interesting in how it started:

"On December 14, 1947 France began talks with other influential racers and promoters at the Ebony Bar at the Streamline Hotel at Daytona Beach, Florida, that ended with the formation of NASCAR on February 21, 1948."

Bass fishing: HUGE industry behind the sport. $30K-$50K bass boats, trucks to pull them with, a never ending series of tackle. Plus the industry bought time on cable networks and disguised thirty minute commercials as fishing shows as far back as the 1980's. Longest running sportsmen show on TV? Bassmasters. Financed by industry sponsors.

Poker was dead until the hole card cam and a guy named Moneymaker turned a $39 PokerStars satellite into $2.5 million and ESPN was there to capture every second of it. Add in the fact that every swinging dick on the planet is positive they are a poker player and only lose because that donkey called their 3-8 offsuit with pocket kings after they raised before the turn. Comparing poker to pool is apples and hand grenades.

All of that said there are things to be learned from all of those games/sports. Pool doesnt have the threat of someone getting killed at 200 mph or getting stomped to death by a bull to draw fans. But it sure is possible for the people in the industry to get their shit together and pull in the same direction if there is a VIABLE/SUSTAINABLE plan. Will it ever happen? I hope so. Is BB it? I don't see anyway it can be.

As to people jacking off ridiculous sums of money on things that look great on paper I agree with you 100%. Happens all the time.

 

[JCIN]

For some people $50,000 a week ain't shit.

For a few million buying a sport is cheap , if it works. If it don't they mite not even notice the loss. I have lost well over a million CASH in the past year and change on a biz. I ain't crying. Didn't change my life one bit. Had the biz worked then it might have changed things for the better. Maybe BB is holding and can fade it. The whole world ain't broke . The broke mentality is wide in pool cause the industry for the most part is starving. But the whole world ain't broke. So maybe it just don't matter. Why people sweat other people's money so hard is beyond me. I only count my $, no time to waste on opm.

Sure lots of people have money. Knowing the history of pool why not just take some of that money that no one is going to miss and simply post somehow that people believe its there instead of one more round of "Trust me?" It would establish instant credibility and shut guys like me up who think we are headed for another IPT debacle. Probably allow the players to sleep a little better at night too.

At this point all this is a discussion in theory for me. BB will do what they do and it will shake out however it shakes out. The players are all grown men and make their own decisions. I certainly do not expect them to pay attention to anything said here good, bad or indifferent. I am willing to bet when you look at an industry or business idea you look at what others have done and are doing then compare it with your experience to see what possible opportunities are out there and how they can be approached. For me thats what this is. Call me broke or sweating opm or whatever but you do it too and so does everyone else with any sense looking at an industry and ways to succeed in it.

 

[The Saw]

Investing $2.5mm to take a crack at owning a sport the size of pool is a reasonable concept. What is poker worth, go back a little further to professional rodeo, or maybe a little further to a bunch of rednecks running their beaters around in circles... Wow, NASCAR... That will never work. Bullshit, they each took a languishing sport, put some lipstick on it and packaged it for mass consumption.

Hell, what's next, make TV shows about bass fishing and create an industry around that... What a joke, never happen. Right?

$2.5 million to own pool??? $2.5 million dumped into BB won't get them 5% of the pool world. The consensus here is that it can't/won't fly, the pool leagues won't get behind it because there is nothing in it for them, bar and poolroom owners aren't going to invest deep in it, so who's left?

Want to know why sports like NASCAR, the PGA Tour, the WWE took off? Because sports management companies like IMG Worldwide seen the profit potential in it and those sports seen they couldn't get there themselves and let true professionals manage their sport and the athletes in it.... Pool will be a hobby sport until someone lights a fire under someone they know at a firm like IMG and they find a solid revenue stream in it. The players blindly follow and trust people like Don Mackey, Kevin Trudeau, Hockeyball Larry thinking that this is the guy that's going to get us there. Look at what Mackey and Trudeau got them.... F'ed.

 

[JCIN]

I think they're doing similar to how tv shows pilot themselves... come up with a bunch of episodes and pitch to tv....they have to pay the actors each week without a return on their money unless the tv exec's pick it up. You know how many tv pilots get pitched and how many actually make it, so i can only guess thats about the same chance BB has of making it.

its a long shot but a shot

I have a friend that just shot a reality pilot for a major cable network about his business. Between him and the production company they spent low six figures on it. They had legit contacts with multiple networks before going ahead. After they shot the sizzle they got the above network on board with the concept and committed to airing the pilot. Its a very hot concept in TV at the moment. The production company has shows on multiple networks running now. Everyone would know the guy who's production company it is. Dude has some stroke in the industry. Edit to add: No it is not Joe Rogan. Though he is a powerful and handsome man in his own right.

The show was supposed to air this month but another company beat them to the punch with a similar show so the pilot was pushed to next year. If the show that beat them tanks it will probably sink theirs by poisoning the concept. The show that beat them sucks so chances are they are screwed. With all of the pieces in place and people who do TV for a living they probably shot a lot of money for a really cool forty four minute home video.

I said all that to say this:

What they did not do is go out and film a full twenty two week season before finding out if they can sell it or not.

One thing I have to give the BB guys is that they are truly living the go big or go home motto.

 

[JCIN]

Zuffa paid $2 mil. for the U.F.C., then put another $40 mil. Into it and the Fertittas were very close to throwing in the towel when that one show changed everything for them.

Yup.

The live sports events lost money until they created a reality show to build story lines, characters and introduce new people to the sport. Something there to consider I think if one were to want to build something with television at its heart.

They paid to produce that show too. Wasn't till it was a success that they started to actually make money with it. So BB is following the same path in that regard I guess. It would be cool to find out they are filming some kind of BTS show that could be pitched. There are enough characters and stories walking around that building for ten reality shows.

I dont see any reason they couldnt switch gears if there is interest in that from someone. Hell just tape a go pro to Earl and you have a pilot. What I think would make a great show is not even the game or league but the day to day behind the scenes of running it and standing it up. Its a proven format.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Bonus Ball has some big time future celebrities on their roster if they decide to go the reality show route. A weekly, edited show that highlights what happened behind the scenes between the players when they got together would be more than enough to attract the attention of America and make them want to tune in and watch them compete if it was done right.

 

[CantEverWin]

Yup.

The live sports events lost money until they created a reality show to build story lines, characters and introduce new people to the sport. Something there to consider I think if one were to want to build something with television at its heart.

They paid to produce that show too. Wasn't till it was a success that they started to actually make money with it. So BB is following the same path in that regard I guess. It would be cool to find out they are filming some kind of BTS show that could be pitched. There are enough characters and stories walking around that building for ten reality shows.

I dont see any reason they couldnt switch gears if there is interest in that from someone. Hell just tape a go pro to Earl and you have a pilot. What I think would make a great show is not even the game or league but the day to day behind the scenes of running it and standing it up. Its a proven format.

That's kind of how the UFC thing played out. As I stated before they were in the red and did pay to put season 1 TUF on spike.

However, very few people watched the early episodes. Very few watched most of the late episodes in fact. Those are what had all of the "back story."
The finale, which only had fights. (With brief promos") is what really launched them.

The UFC goal with tuf was to "trick" a network into allowing them to put fights on TV. The tuf finale gained viewership with each segment. Topping out extremely high. (For spike, and for that show.)

I do agree that back story and chaos helps sports on TV. It is even further helping the UFC today. (Even though tuf numbers are down)


Only point I was making is that with the UFC it is generally believed that they had more new viewership during the finale then any other episodes. Which does harm the "back story" arguement a bit. Truth is they had a product that people just needed to see.
After many seasons of TUF the top PPV fighters are still guys who haven't been on the show.

Well, with the exception of a few of them coaching. But even those guys were the top guys before they coached.
Show is really good at getting people to know the undercard guys though.

 

[JCIN]

That's kind of how the UFC thing played out. As I stated before they were in the red and did pay to put season 1 TUF on spike.

However, very few people watched the early episodes. Very few watched most of the late episodes in fact. Those are what had all of the "back story."
The finale, which only had fights. (With brief promos") is what really launched them.

The UFC goal with tuf was to "trick" a network into allowing them to put fights on TV. The tuf finale gained viewership with each segment. Topping out extremely high. (For spike, and for that show.)

I do agree that back story and chaos helps sports on TV. It is even further helping the UFC today. (Even though tuf numbers are down)


Only point I was making is that with the UFC it is generally believed that they had more new viewership during the finale then any other episodes. Which does harm the "back story" arguement a bit. Truth is they had a product that people just needed to see.
After many seasons of TUF the top PPV fighters are still guys who haven't been on the show.

Well, with the exception of a few of them coaching. But even those guys were the top guys before they coached.
Show is really good at getting people to know the undercard guys though.

I think there is more to the story development than you seem to but so be it. At the end of the day the goal was accomplished. Its hard to argue that the Bonnar/Griffin fight probably wasn't the biggest factor of that whole season.

I havent watched the show in years so I cant speak about how its changed or what they do now but the initial idea was brilliant. I see they have since spun it off to Brazil as well.

 

[JCIN]

Bonus Ball has some big time future celebrities on their roster if they decide to go the reality show route. A weekly, edited show that highlights what happened behind the scenes between the players when they got together would be more than enough to attract the attention of America and make them want to tune in and watch them compete if it was done right.

I agree. Shot and edited right with a little strategic scripting it could be very entertaining.

 

[(((Satori)))]

I agree. Shot and edited right with a little strategic scripting it could be very entertaining.

F@^* yeah, we've gave them the recipe for success. This is going to be huge.

I'm going out right now And I'm looking for investors so I can open the worlds first Bonus Ball Hall, where friends and family can gather together to enjoy some purple, orange, and black action. I'm looking to open smack dab in the middle of Detroit Michigan. If you are any of you are a potential investor and interested send me a P.M.

Lets ride this wave!

 

[JCIN]

F@^* yeah, we've gave them the recipe for success. This is going to be huge.

I'm going out right now And I'm looking for investors so I can open the worlds first Bonus Ball Hall, where friends and family can gather together to enjoy some purple, orange, and black action. I'm looking to open smack dab in the middle of Detroit Michigan. If you are any of you are a potential investor and interested send me a P.M.

Lets ride this wave!

What could go wrong?

 

[BeiberLvr]

Justin

Have you ever talked with any television companies? The smaller ones like VS or G4TV. I always thought TAR could be something those stations would air. I'm assuming it wouldn't be profitable for you, at least in the beginning.

I noticed in the last match that both Shane and Dennis were drinking Gatorades. Possible sponsor? Obviously I have no idea how sponsorships work.

 

[CJ Wiley]

visionaries get involved in Professional Pool a similar success story will happen.

Who knows how it will all shake out, only time will tell

What I get a kick out of is people thinking a 50k a week negative cash flow is the end of the world. Look at the myriad of start ups funded by venture capital. There are weekly examples of companies being purchased for hundreds of millions that have never earned a single dime in profit and in fact burned millions getting started. What they have done however, is show a potential return that captures the attention of investors.

Investing $2.5mm to take a crack at owning a sport the size of pool is a reasonable concept. What is poker worth, go back a little further to professional rodeo, or maybe a little further to a bunch of rednecks running their beaters around in circles... Wow, NASCAR... That will never work. Bullshit, they each took a languishing sport, put some lipstick on it and packaged it for mass consumption.

Hell, what's next, make TV shows about bass fishing and create an industry around that... What a joke, never happen. Right?

You're exactly right and when the same type visionaries get involved in Professional Pool a similar success story will happen. Pool's still the "Master Game", and it will take a "changing of the guard" to give the Game and it's players a fighting chance.

Bonus Ball may or may not be the answer, but it's a step in a better direction. The direction we've been going the last 13 years has got us exactly where we are now. 'The Game is the Teacher'