If Diamond tables didn't bank short...

[iusedtoberich]

I made this post in Nov of 2008, for my review of the Diamond ProAM Table:


Last night I played on a 2 or 3 year old Diamond Pro/Am table. I played about 8 hours of a gambling one pocket session. I've been playing on Brunswick Gold Crowns 1 through 4 for my entire 15 yr pool career.

I can't believe how many of you guys love these tables. From a player's standpoint, I hated them.


Dislikes:
1. The frame kept getting in my way. My feet would often hit the table legs, forcing me to change my stance. And my lower leg would often hit the skirt of the table. I'm tall but this never happens on a Gold Crown. I noticed it immediately.

2. No ball storage. You can't play one pocket easily this way. We placed on the floor the ball tray for one guy and the rack for the other guy by each of our pockets. Of course they would occasionally get in our way, and it was not a "graceful" way to keep score.

3. Ball return. I keep hearing how great and fast and quiet the ball return is on these tables. Unfortunately, that is only half the story. Once the balls make their quick and silent trek to the ball gully, they are a pain to get out. The slope of the floor of the gully is so slight, that if you bump the balls with your fingers trying to get them out, they climb up the slight angle and take several long seconds to come back down.

4. The cushions. The cushions were way to fast. The ball picked up a lot more speed coming off the cushion. This was especially noticeable playing one hole with all the bank shots. I will say perhaps this was an installation issue, but I have heard other players mention this, including one of the pros on the Gabe/Tony 1 pocket thread where one guy refused to play on a diamond with artemis cushions because they are artificially fast.

There were a few likes I had:
1. The table seemed sturdier. When bumping it with my body there seemed to be absolutely no movement of the table.

2. The finish on the rails looked brand new. And these tables were 2 or 3 years old in a commercial environment.

Overall as a player, I was very disappointed with the tables ball reaction play and features that make playing easier.

 

[Scott Lee]

Kerry...and you did this because...???? Oh yeah, 'cause it's COOL! LOL Speed kills on a pool table too. Many tables, even pro variety, will, if not spit the ball back out, cause the OB to jaw the pocket when you try to "hammer" it into the pocket. Either way you're screwed! Pocket speed when plausible...but I'm not tellin' ya anything you don't already know! See you Friday at Archie's! :grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Just last night I was playing at my home bar. We play on a Valley 8'. Actually...I think it is a Dynamo, maybe like 8-10 years old, all black. It isn't really all that bad. However, after our match I was just shooting around and rifled a ball into one of the corner pockets. It definitely hit the bottom of the pocket and came right back out. It was pretty funny at the time, but I would be *unamused* if this happened in a real match. To be fair, I totally SMASHED the ball...

KMRUNOUT

 

[BRKNRUN]

The only "potential" issue I see is how well the black areas of the table is gong to hold up in public pool rooms....For some reason I feel like they will deteriorate from abuse....It looks like the hardened finished wood will last forever under all abuse....It is just the black wood that I look at and wonder...

For whatever reason...the only thing that annoys me about the table is where the coin slot is located....Why it annoys me I don't know....perhaps it is bacause I am always walking around the table looking for the damn thing...I feels like it is on the wrong side...and the wrong end....

 

[cheapcues.com]

Mike...yes Diamond could reproduce the Brunswick Centennial table, but the bigger question is why? The cost of changing the rail moulder heads wouldn't be cheap I can assure you of that, besides that...do you remember how much aluminum is in that table? THAT is a lot of cost at todays prices. As far as any patents today on that table, they all expired 17 years after they were first filed, so there's nothing stopping any one from reproducing the Centennial all over again...except that particular table actually represented 100 years in business to Brunswick...so, if anyone is ever going to reproduce that table....I'd feel better if Brunswick was the one to reintroduce it to the market...as anyone else would be accused of "copying" one of Brunswick's best ever looking modern era pool tables...and I just don't think that would sit well with many customers.

So, that's my take on your question.

Glen

Re: the aluminum issue, I should have said Anniversary, not centennial.
I guess what the person who posed the question, and I were driving at was if Diamond (or any other company for that matter) were to produce a table that was inspired by, or had design elements taken from Brunswick, would that cause potential lawsuits. Sounds like no in the case of that particular design. It is a very striking design.

-Mike

 

[realkingcobra]

I made this post in Nov of 2008, for my review of the Diamond ProAM Table:


Last night I played on a 2 or 3 year old Diamond Pro/Am table. I played about 8 hours of a gambling one pocket session. I've been playing on Brunswick Gold Crowns 1 through 4 for my entire 15 yr pool career.

I can't believe how many of you guys love these tables. From a player's standpoint, I hated them.


Dislikes:

1. The frame kept getting in my way. My feet would often hit the table legs, forcing me to change my stance. And my lower leg would often hit the skirt of the table. I'm tall but this never happens on a Gold Crown. I noticed it immediately.

I'd like see how you're standing...as the skirts on a ProAm are only half as long as they are on any GC...yet it's never happened on any GC?

2. No ball storage. You can't play one pocket easily this way. We placed on the floor the ball tray for one guy and the rack for the other guy by each of our pockets. Of course they would occasionally get in our way, and it was not a "graceful" way to keep score.

Is it Diamonds fault the location owner didn't purchase the wire ball rack for placement of point balls under the end of the table for playing one pocket....because they're available.

3. Ball return. I keep hearing how great and fast and quiet the ball return is on these tables. Unfortunately, that is only half the story. Once the balls make their quick and silent trek to the ball gully, they are a pain to get out. The slope of the floor of the gully is so slight, that if you bump the balls with your fingers trying to get them out, they climb up the slight angle and take several long seconds to come back down.

That's been corrected several years ago

4. The cushions. The cushions were way to fast. The ball picked up a lot more speed coming off the cushion. This was especially noticeable playing one hole with all the bank shots. I will say perhaps this was an installation issue, but I have heard other players mention this, including one of the pros on the Gabe/Tony 1 pocket thread where one guy refused to play on a diamond with artemis cushions because they are artificially fast.

Already been addressed, and adjusted.

There were a few likes I had:
1. The table seemed sturdier. When bumping it with my body there seemed to be absolutely no movement of the table.

2. The finish on the rails looked brand new. And these tables were 2 or 3 years old in a commercial environment.

Overall as a player, I was very disappointed with the tables ball reaction play and features that make playing easier.[/

So, if they're so easy...when do we see your name in lights for winning a world championship?

 

[magnetardo]

Re: the aluminum issue, I should have said Anniversary, not centennial.
I guess what the person who posed the question, and I were driving at was if Diamond (or any other company for that matter) were to produce a table that was inspired by, or had design elements taken from Brunswick, would that cause potential lawsuits. Sounds like no in the case of that particular design. It is a very striking design.

-Mike

Have you seen the Brunswick Gibson?

http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/brunswick_collection/tables/casual/gibson.html

 

[realkingcobra]

The only "potential" issue I see is how well the black areas of the table is gong to hold up in public pool rooms....For some reason I feel like they will deteriorate from abuse....It looks like the hardened finished wood will last forever under all abuse....It is just the black wood that I look at and wonder...

If you look a little closer...you'll see the walls of the ball return box are lined with a rubber rope that the balls actually hit...instead of the actual wood of the wall...so there's no chance of wearing out the ball box area.

For whatever reason...the only thing that annoys me about the table is where the coin slot is located....Why it annoys me I don't know....perhaps it is bacause I am always walking around the table looking for the damn thing...I feels like it is on the wrong side...and the wrong end....

The only way to correct that...is to STOP playing on any other coin-op tables...that way...you only have to remember where the coin chute is at on the Diamonds

Glen

 

[cheapcues.com]

Have you seen the Brunswick Gibson?

http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/brunswick_collection/tables/casual/gibson.html

yes, another version of that design- beautiful table. Connelly's Aspen is similar but I think those horizontal lines on the Brunswick really make those tables stand out.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Glen,

You asked what improvements could be made to Diamonds. Yet for nearly every suggestion in this thread, you basically explained why the idea was not possible, or worth doing, or made a joke about the comment. This is not just an observation of your response to my feedback.

If you don't want our feedback, and think everything is perfect, then why even bother posting?

I speak as an engineer who designs consumer products and listens to the consumer's feedback in interviews, online Amazon reviews, and calls to our consumer services department. I listen to them sometimes tear the products to pieces. Its hard to hear that about something I was a part of designing. However, I have to separate my emotion and get to the real issue they are describing. The end goal is to make a better product. You can't get to that end goal very efficiently if you discard the comments of the customers using the product.

 

[realkingcobra]

Re: the aluminum issue, I should have said Anniversary, not centennial.
I guess what the person who posed the question, and I were driving at was if Diamond (or any other company for that matter) were to produce a table that was inspired by, or had design elements taken from Brunswick, would that cause potential lawsuits. Sounds like no in the case of that particular design. It is a very striking design.

-Mike

No...there's no legal problems with that...but if you think about it...would an Anniversary built by Diamond....have the same meaning for the table...when it was built by Brunswick?...and therefore...the same attraction to the public to buy a "Diamond Anniversary"?

Glen

 

[cheapcues.com]

Glen,

You asked what improvements could be made to Diamonds. Yet for nearly every suggestion in this thread, you basically explained why the idea was not possible, or worth doing, or made a joke about the comment. This is not just an observation of your response to my feedback.

If you don't want our feedback, and think everything is perfect, then why even bother posting?

I speak as an engineer who designs consumer products and listens to the consumer's feedback in interviews, online Amazon reviews, and calls to our consumer services department. I listen to them sometimes tear the products to pieces. Its hard to hear that about something I was a part of designing. However, I have to separate my emotion and get to the real issue they are describing. The end goal is to make a better product. You can't get to that end goal very efficiently if you discard the comments of the customers using the product.

TAP TAP TAP I was just thinking the same thing....

 

[cheapcues.com]

No...there's no legal problems with that...but if you think about it...would an Anniversary built by Diamond....have the same meaning for the table...when it was built by Brunswick?...and therefore...the same attraction to the public to buy a "Diamond Anniversary"?

Glen

Duh, you wouldn't call it the "Diamond Anniversary". I'm just suggesting a design inspiration if as you stated earlier Diamond is looking at developing some home tables that look good.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen,

You asked what improvements could be made to Diamonds. Yet for nearly every suggestion in this thread, you basically explained why the idea was not possible, or worth doing, or made a joke about the comment. This is not just an observation of your response to my feedback.

If you don't want our feedback, and think everything is perfect, then why even bother posting?

I speak as an engineer who designs consumer products and listens to the consumer's feedback in interviews, online Amazon reviews, and calls to our consumer services department. I listen to them sometimes tear the products to pieces. Its hard to hear that about something I was a part of designing. However, I have to separate my emotion and get to the real issue they are describing. The end goal is to make a better product. You can't get to that end goal very efficiently if you discard the comments of the customers using the product.

You're 100% right...except that when it comes to the design of a commercial pool table...in the regards to some complaints. Your foot stance...complaint...is maybe 1 out of a 1,000...you don't redesign a table for 1 complaint out of a 1,000....do you?

Secondly...the ProAm is a 100% commercially designed table...built to withstand the commercial abuse that a table is put through in that kind of environment...in fact..it's so well designed and built...I can't even begin to try and put a life expectancy on the length of time any of the ProAms could last in a commercial environment...because it's not the customer that wears out the tables...its the table mechanic that don't know what in the hell he's doing when working on the tables...that causes the most destruction to a pool table. But...if I were to have to guess...I'd put the life of a ProAm at around 100 years minimum.....later on down the road that may come back to haunt Diamond...but I won't live long enough to see that happen....but I guarantee you...sooner or later it will. Diamond unlike Brunswick and all the other table manufactures...is only going to sell a pool room owner..or a home owner a ProAm once...unless an act of god happens...in which it needs replaced.

Sometimes...you can solve one complaint...but not another...just because of what the table goes through constant shipping and setups...so it has to be designed a certain way...in which it'll stand up to the constant moving around...which is why I already explained about not being able to redesign the top rail profile to be more like a GC's.

Not all complaints can be solved...so a manufacture has to pick an choose which ones they can do something about...and which ones they have to pass on.

As I've already said, the play of the rails has already been adjusted...and not by changing the cushions...as that's not the reason why some of the tables have played the way they have in the past....because if the problem...or indifference was in the cushions....I wouldn't be able to take them very same cushions....and install them on a GC...and make that table play better than it ever did from the factory.

The change wasn't in the nose height of the cushions either, as they still have the same 1 29/64"ths nose height for the cushions that they had before...but at this time....I'm not going into what that change was...that I'm sure will be explained after the US Open....by Diamond...but I'll tell you this...not one table manufacture yet...not even Brunswick has hit perfection in the playing surface where the cushions are involved...and I've worked on all the "BEST" tables out here...so I can back up my statement...with facts....but I'll tell you this also....Diamond has now because when you have a 9ft pocket table...that plays like a billiards table...with pockets....THEN...you've hit as perfect as ANYONE's ever going to build a pool table

So...I'm asking for valid complaints...not personal ones....because valid complaints will come from more than one person...and something can be done about them....but...I can't design a pool table to fit the way you stand when you are playing pool...and make it a commercial table as well...I have to consider the masses of people that play on the very same tables you've played on...that have had no problems with the side skirts...which I might remind you...are half as long as the skirts on ANY Gold Crown

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Duh, you wouldn't call it the "Diamond Anniversary". I'm just suggesting a design inspiration if as you stated earlier Diamond is looking at developing some home tables that look good.

I don't think that looking back in time is the answer to building a line of home tables for Diamond...I think the answer is in looking forward...designing home style tables that play every bit as good as their commercial tables do...but more apealing in looks that fit more into the home table lineup...as there is a lot more tables manufactured going into the home table market than there ever will be in the commercial market...which means there's a lot more competition to have to deal with...so if Diamond is going to play in this arena...they're going to have to gain the upper hand...and that's only going to be by coming up with something that no one else has designed before...and I'm not just talking about the looks of a home table...I mean way more than that, but right nows not the time for Diamond to take that route...the 9ft ProAm straight rail billiards table is next up on the design block, and it should be finished by next month and ready for distribution...as that's a wide open market, that Diamond should be able to close with no problem

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

New ball holder instead of the little rack that screws on. Maybe a slot like a GoldCrown

Actually...I've had some thoughts about that for the Professionals as an after market change, which would require cutting out a rectangular hole in the end side panel, then inserting a ball tray...kind of like on a GC5...but that's not one of my projects for this year I can tell you that...LOL

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen, it sounds like you know what the pro-am/ smart probs are and what can and can't be done. So I'll address something else. Diamond had that prototype table with the curved legs at the last WPBA event, if this is a table they are considering for the home market tell them to round the corners so they are only knuckle busters not knuckle breakers. lol

You must be talking about the Diamond Paragon, rounding the corners on this table would change the whole straight line look of the table, plus it would be a nightmare to try and round the corners on the skirts.

 

[realkingcobra]

The black looks hideous on TV, they could improve the look of all the finishes really.

I don't think Diamond had it in mind as to what one of their tables looks like on TV when they came up with the Dyamondwood finishes for their rails, they're looks are kind of like...better in person. Dyamondwood can be polished to a real nice shine...like a new set of balls...if one wanted to take the time to do so...but you're going to spend hours in getting that mirror finish on the rails...that's time that Diamond don't have in a production mode.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

I wish there were more of them in Europe... since I have never tried one.

Give it some time, I'm sure they'll be over there sooner or later

 

[realkingcobra]

I don't handle change very well. I am to old to change.

I know what you mean buddy...I'm to old to start sitting down to pee, but I'm going to have to figure out something new...when my pants legs start getting wet

 

[realkingcobra]

I have one issue that we deal with all the time on the Barbox's at our place. (And maybe a possible solution).

How can we prevent balls from jumping off the track in the middle of the table. I can't count how many times I've had to pull the rack out and stick a wall cue in there to push a ball back onto the track.

I know this happens because people drop chalks into the pockets and there is really no way to prevent that.

Is it possible to widen the opening at the bottom of the tracks so that chalks would fall through and not clog up the tracks?

Or possibly extend the height inside the table so that balls stop getting stuck on the ledge inside? Or bank the edges so the balls fall back into the track on their own?!?

The other night when I got to the room, there was one table that had no balls in the window. I asked where they were and was told they were all stuck inside including 4 cueballs from other tables. Oh god! I was able to force the balls through with my hand while under the table and got the 1 piece of chalk out.

That's a tuff call...because that's one of the drawbacks to a coin-operated pool table...which has caused problems to every coin-op ever built....reguardless of who built them. The tables are designed to handle round balls going through them....like a mouse trap to catch mice...but they don't handle square pieces of chalk, ashtrays, empty packs of cigarettes, beer cans, sunglasses, rings, coins...or used tampons very well...them are just a few of the items I've pulled out of coin-op pool tables to get them working properly again:grin:

Glen