If tight pockets help your game then why...
- Thread starter Bigkahuna
- Start date
Several times on this forum, I have posted that super-tight pockets have an advantage (shotmaking, tightening up your aim, requiring flawless stroke and mechanics, etc) - however, like Jude pointed out earlier, you won't be able to do too much with the pockets being super tight.
Case in point:
I had a friend that had his own table and decided to toghten up the pocket to like 3.75 inches - IMO - it was a dumb move. You couldn't make a shot down the rail AT ALL. On the break shots - balls would jar in the pockets and never drop. Bank shots usually were a waste of time. Most every shot would rattle in the jaws and after a while it just wasn't any fun. Most of the game was clearing off balls that were left stranded in front of the pockets.
He thought this would improve his game, but all it did was make the play less enjoyable. If you can't pocket balls at certain angles, you'll tend to avoid those shots. For a shot to go in, it needed a clear path to the center of the pocket. Any degree of angle would send the object balls into the jaws of the pockets - therefore - IMO - this was not helping his game at all.
I'm not against tighter pockets - in fact I prefer them. There is a such thing as "ridiculous". Anything less than 4.25 - you are robbing yourself of playing at your full potential. There is a different between "super tight pockets" and a pockets with a "tight cut angle". There is a big difference.
Now some of the things I have done during practice are this - When I had my own pool room, I played 14.1 on 5X10 snooker table with teenie weenie pockets - for about 30 minutes, then I would go to the 4.5 X 9 with the 4.5 inch pockets. When I was on the snooker table, I DID NOT shoot the reds - I shot at standard sized pool balls. Big difference. When I switched back over to the pool table, I was zoned in and the pockets seemed huge.
Sometimes (at the beginning of my practice sessions) I will put on the Practice Pro Pocket Reducers - I will leave them on for about 20-30 minutes - most of the shots won't go in unless they are straight down the center - After a while, I take them off and I don't miss much. Here is a photo of how much it shrunk the giant (standard) pockets on my Brunswick that I had when I was in El Paso -
This table, a 4X8 Brunswick Amherst, had giant pockets, and I got rid of it shortly after buying it. Vagabond came over one time and asked me why I had bought that table -LOL- I had just moved back to El Paso - I told him I just wanted something that I could use to hit some balls every now and then - he kind of shook his head in disbelief. We went elsewhere to play some one pocket that day, I don't think he wanted to play on it - I don't blame him at all - one night I played straight pool on the generous 5 inch pockets - when I got to 170 or 180, I stopped - mostly from embarrassment. lol
So bigger pockets can hurt you also - sometimes they will establish false confidence, and that confidnce will dissipate once you get on a table with smaller pockets. One thing I will recommend is that if you are playing on loose equipment, try to pocket the balls cleanly every time without hitting any of the rail or the pocket jaws. By doing that, you train yourself to avoid cheating the pocket unless you really have to. This is how I learned how to pocket those railbiters on a tough, tight pocketed Diamond table. If you want to play on a great table that will put your skills to the ultimate test, get on a Diamond Professional with a tight cut angle - that's all you need, really.
Case in point:
I had a friend that had his own table and decided to toghten up the pocket to like 3.75 inches - IMO - it was a dumb move. You couldn't make a shot down the rail AT ALL. On the break shots - balls would jar in the pockets and never drop. Bank shots usually were a waste of time. Most every shot would rattle in the jaws and after a while it just wasn't any fun. Most of the game was clearing off balls that were left stranded in front of the pockets.
He thought this would improve his game, but all it did was make the play less enjoyable. If you can't pocket balls at certain angles, you'll tend to avoid those shots. For a shot to go in, it needed a clear path to the center of the pocket. Any degree of angle would send the object balls into the jaws of the pockets - therefore - IMO - this was not helping his game at all.
I'm not against tighter pockets - in fact I prefer them. There is a such thing as "ridiculous". Anything less than 4.25 - you are robbing yourself of playing at your full potential. There is a different between "super tight pockets" and a pockets with a "tight cut angle". There is a big difference.
Now some of the things I have done during practice are this - When I had my own pool room, I played 14.1 on 5X10 snooker table with teenie weenie pockets - for about 30 minutes, then I would go to the 4.5 X 9 with the 4.5 inch pockets. When I was on the snooker table, I DID NOT shoot the reds - I shot at standard sized pool balls. Big difference. When I switched back over to the pool table, I was zoned in and the pockets seemed huge.
Sometimes (at the beginning of my practice sessions) I will put on the Practice Pro Pocket Reducers - I will leave them on for about 20-30 minutes - most of the shots won't go in unless they are straight down the center - After a while, I take them off and I don't miss much. Here is a photo of how much it shrunk the giant (standard) pockets on my Brunswick that I had when I was in El Paso -
This table, a 4X8 Brunswick Amherst, had giant pockets, and I got rid of it shortly after buying it. Vagabond came over one time and asked me why I had bought that table -LOL- I had just moved back to El Paso - I told him I just wanted something that I could use to hit some balls every now and then - he kind of shook his head in disbelief. We went elsewhere to play some one pocket that day, I don't think he wanted to play on it - I don't blame him at all - one night I played straight pool on the generous 5 inch pockets - when I got to 170 or 180, I stopped - mostly from embarrassment. lol
So bigger pockets can hurt you also - sometimes they will establish false confidence, and that confidnce will dissipate once you get on a table with smaller pockets. One thing I will recommend is that if you are playing on loose equipment, try to pocket the balls cleanly every time without hitting any of the rail or the pocket jaws. By doing that, you train yourself to avoid cheating the pocket unless you really have to. This is how I learned how to pocket those railbiters on a tough, tight pocketed Diamond table. If you want to play on a great table that will put your skills to the ultimate test, get on a Diamond Professional with a tight cut angle - that's all you need, really.
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I completely disagree with the people who say tight pockets only helps your shot making.
I think the central benefit of tight pockets is that it teaches you to play position by cueing the ball in the correct location and at the correct speed, rather than using your aim to play position. This can bring a LOT of refinement to your position skills. My game went up dramatically by practicing with the Practice Pro pocket reducers. They make my pockets 3.5" approx, and you can't touch the sides at all. I believe that I experienced a significantly more delicate control of the cueball as a result of tuning into EXACTLY where I am cueing the ball to achieve subtle differences in cueball direction. I think big sloppy pockets rob you of that learning process.
I think it is still good to play on looser tables for all the reasons already mentioned. Still, it is only power and stroking accuracy that prevent one from executing the same shots on a tight table that you think you can only do on a loose table. Both have their value.
KMRUNOUT
I think the central benefit of tight pockets is that it teaches you to play position by cueing the ball in the correct location and at the correct speed, rather than using your aim to play position. This can bring a LOT of refinement to your position skills. My game went up dramatically by practicing with the Practice Pro pocket reducers. They make my pockets 3.5" approx, and you can't touch the sides at all. I believe that I experienced a significantly more delicate control of the cueball as a result of tuning into EXACTLY where I am cueing the ball to achieve subtle differences in cueball direction. I think big sloppy pockets rob you of that learning process.
I think it is still good to play on looser tables for all the reasons already mentioned. Still, it is only power and stroking accuracy that prevent one from executing the same shots on a tight table that you think you can only do on a loose table. Both have their value.
KMRUNOUT
I have an 8 footer at home and it has the practice pro pocket reducers on it. I leave them on and I can run out with them on, sure you will rattle balls here and there, but I do that on tables without them too. Regarding the russian players....they do crush most of the people they play in pool. Im just not sure how much money they make, and how much comming to the states is a viable option for them. Ive never played on pockets that were less than 4 inches without having the pocket reducers in the pockets, but I simply wont play on anything over 4.5 inches, psychologically I need to know that I made the ball and not wonder if it really, "went."
I just got my Gold Crown setup and the pockets are at 4 7/8 due to Glen using the larger Neoprene facings but I do not think they are even close to buckets. Glen setup my buddies Diamond and tightened the pockets up to 4 1/4 and in my honest opinion I think it is more mental than anything. Yeh some shots bounced out that would have fallen on mine but nothing that is totally going to kill you.
For those who keep stating that they don't see basketball players shooting into smaller "practice Hoops"....then why do they make them??
Standard inside hoop dim is 18"
Practice inside hoop dim is 15"
.......Imagine that........
http://www.robbinssports.com/sporti...nch-basketball-hoop-practice-ring-p-2479.html
http://www.sportskids.com/superstor...4-Hydra-Rib+Basketball+Practice+Shooting+Ring
Standard inside hoop dim is 18"
Practice inside hoop dim is 15"
.......Imagine that........
http://www.robbinssports.com/sporti...nch-basketball-hoop-practice-ring-p-2479.html
http://www.sportskids.com/superstor...4-Hydra-Rib+Basketball+Practice+Shooting+Ring
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I have played on some home equipment of a few roadmen, From what I have seen most of them do not have their home equipment super tight. They are usually setup typical pool room style. As I rule I do not see these gambling type players having home tables which will not take 2 balls in the corner pocket. This would be at least 4 1/2" pockets. Most are little more than that but about 2 balls.
Back at the point in my life when I was hanging out with such people, when they played at home they liked making the balls, stringing racks and I know they already knew how to adjust for tighter pockets if we came to that while traveling around. When we traveled to other places for action we usually would find softer equipment in the rooms generally when compared to local Indy rooms. Alot of these same rooms would have one gaffy gambling table tightish pockets, maybe a light roll off, but the road man can usually adjust much quicker than expected, at least the ones I was running with could.
Note: There is a certain lady pro in my area and I have seen her home table as well. You best come with a laser beam because those balls have got to be made. She and her husband both play quite well on a very tight Diamond. The pockets are probably closer to 4" than 4 1/2" at the back of the cut maybe even under 4". The frightening part is the sides and how tight they are shimmed up. This table is extremely well maintained by her mechanic so I believe that adds back to the playability. I believe she like knowing she can run alot of balls on tight equipment and she can I am here to tell you.
Back at the point in my life when I was hanging out with such people, when they played at home they liked making the balls, stringing racks and I know they already knew how to adjust for tighter pockets if we came to that while traveling around. When we traveled to other places for action we usually would find softer equipment in the rooms generally when compared to local Indy rooms. Alot of these same rooms would have one gaffy gambling table tightish pockets, maybe a light roll off, but the road man can usually adjust much quicker than expected, at least the ones I was running with could.
Note: There is a certain lady pro in my area and I have seen her home table as well. You best come with a laser beam because those balls have got to be made. She and her husband both play quite well on a very tight Diamond. The pockets are probably closer to 4" than 4 1/2" at the back of the cut maybe even under 4". The frightening part is the sides and how tight they are shimmed up. This table is extremely well maintained by her mechanic so I believe that adds back to the playability. I believe she like knowing she can run alot of balls on tight equipment and she can I am here to tell you.
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I think a lot of valid points have been raised. Blackjack paints a great picture of a miserable tight-pocket scenario and an equally miserable bucket scenario. I actually had a gig for a while teaching these kids on their home table which had the most ridiculously large pockets I've ever seen and it was a complete joke.
Fact is, we should listen to Blackjack, it's best to stay in the neighborhood of what you'll normally be playing on. You don't want pockets that are any bigger than what you see with a standard Gold Crown and if you want to tighten them up, it shouldn't be by much. I'm sorry but playing straight pool on 4" pockets or smaller might be the least fun though I'm sure there are a ton of 1-pocket players that would be in heaven.
I understand players refer to how they developed a "touch" from tight equipment. I know exactly what they refer to and it'd be foolish to think you can't develop this touch on standard equipment, too. Once again, I think this goes back to what motivates you but scenarios on standard equipment will dictate that you develop this touch as well.
The bottom line is, if you want to get better, you gotta play! It's all about what motivates you. I've gotten in gear on tight equipment - played on the head table at Broadway Billiards and ran 5 racks. There's NOTHING more fun than thinking there ain't a table in the world that can hold you down. However, that's not always the case and most of the time, if I'm sitting at that table, you'll see me peering out to the buckets with a yearning look in my eye. I like to run. I break, make a ball and get position and it's that determination to finish off the rack that motivates me. But that's me and you don't need to copy me to improve.
Fact is, we should listen to Blackjack, it's best to stay in the neighborhood of what you'll normally be playing on. You don't want pockets that are any bigger than what you see with a standard Gold Crown and if you want to tighten them up, it shouldn't be by much. I'm sorry but playing straight pool on 4" pockets or smaller might be the least fun though I'm sure there are a ton of 1-pocket players that would be in heaven.
I understand players refer to how they developed a "touch" from tight equipment. I know exactly what they refer to and it'd be foolish to think you can't develop this touch on standard equipment, too. Once again, I think this goes back to what motivates you but scenarios on standard equipment will dictate that you develop this touch as well.
The bottom line is, if you want to get better, you gotta play! It's all about what motivates you. I've gotten in gear on tight equipment - played on the head table at Broadway Billiards and ran 5 racks. There's NOTHING more fun than thinking there ain't a table in the world that can hold you down. However, that's not always the case and most of the time, if I'm sitting at that table, you'll see me peering out to the buckets with a yearning look in my eye. I like to run. I break, make a ball and get position and it's that determination to finish off the rack that motivates me. But that's me and you don't need to copy me to improve.
Thanks guys for all of the thoughtful responses. Reading through this thread has given me a few new things to think about. I myself am taking my table down to 4 5/8 inch pockets and will not go any smaller. They will be tighter than most of the tables I play on around here which are mostly bar boxes and 9 foot gold crowns. I am also installing slightly faster cloth and really all of this I am expecting will help me to learn some new skills on my home table. Whether or not this will make me more competetive with the better players around my area we shall see.
I know just last night I went to play this safe where I just needed to slow roll the cue 12 inches (slow cloth) and sure enough it never made it to the rail after contact with the object ball. I said to myself you dumb a$$ wrong table! The guy won that first rack in a 5 to 2 race. He then ended up beating me hill hill and I ran two racks so the adjustment came pretty quick but if I had not made that first mistake.....
I know just last night I went to play this safe where I just needed to slow roll the cue 12 inches (slow cloth) and sure enough it never made it to the rail after contact with the object ball. I said to myself you dumb a$$ wrong table! The guy won that first rack in a 5 to 2 race. He then ended up beating me hill hill and I ran two racks so the adjustment came pretty quick but if I had not made that first mistake.....
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Tight pockets is an understatement....
James
How could you possibly enjoy playing pool on a table with pockets like that? If I saw those pockets first I wouldn't even put my cue together.....Bigkahuna said:These are the pockets the Russians play on......So, I guess I am questioning some people who have gone to extremes in "tightening up" pockets. If this extreme made a better player then these guys from Russia should be the best out there.
James
Tight pockets is an understatement....
James
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60595&stc=1&d=1203973295
How could you possibly enjoy playing pool on a table with pockets like that? If I saw those pockets first I wouldn't even put my cue together.....Bigkahuna said:These are the pockets the Russians play on......
James
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60595&stc=1&d=1203973295
The reason that these guys are not crushing everyone on the planet is simple......I know for a fact that Earl practices on 4 inch pockets and another top local player has his home table even tighter...but just because Earl prefers tight tables doesn't make him a world champion ( it helps a little) but he has the TALENT!!!!!!!!Bigkahuna said: