If you really want to know how Shanelle Lorain plays

[Fast Lenny]

I saw this match, not many on this forum would have had a chance against her opponent.

http://youtu.be/n-TIgCr-uUw

 

[Eric.]

Whoa! Where is YOUR mind at???

Thats exactly my point. You're getting to the point of creeping out any normal girl.

BTW, how many prostitutes have gone missing in your neighborhood?


Eric

 

[Brozif]

The Tawianese player played AWESOME, and Shanelle got the same chance that many others would have in that match! She got steamrolled and took it like a champ. Very gracious in defeat.

You know I've been reading posts about Shanelle for a while now and it is truly sad how most people can be so judgemental.

Yes, we all know that she's not a great player...yet. How about we give her some time and see if she develops into the player we all hope she should be. I know many of you have said that she has been coached by Charlie Williams for 4 years and she should be better than she is, but that's just it, she's being coached by Charlie Williams! She needs to drop him as a coach like Yu Ram Cha did and get a real coach!! Someone like Stan Shuffet maybe.

Many people feel that because she isn't that good that she shouldn't be sponsored by anyone. Let's face it, the girl is beautiful, she does play this game and the simple truth is sex sells! She is sexy as hell and you may buy a Poison cue because you like them or you may buy one simply because of Shanelle! God blessed her with her looks and I don't fault her a bit for what it has gotten her. At least she has a skill she's trying to improve and promote. What are the skills of runway models? All they have is their beauty and no skill set to along with them except the ability to shake their hips from side to side and walk! Yet, we men worship the ground they walk on because of their looks!

The fact that we're even talking about her proves that she has a lot of people's attention. I don't care what it takes to get people into rooms to play pool! If I had a pool room, I would invite her in a heartbeat to come to it and play with the locals. Sure maybe a lot of them would beat her, but they would care less!! She's gorgeous and she plays pool!! That is a winning combination in my book all day long!!

 

[Icon of Sin]

If it weren't for open events Ralph Macchio would never have become the Karate Kid and would still be getting his ass kicked by this guy. Think about it.

!

LOL. As funny as this comparison is... Danial-san actually won matches and progressed through the tournament to make it to the final. He was actually good.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Sure, by definition she is a professional. By playing standards, she isnt close. Why not have Poison/Dragon Promotions/whoever use her for marketing. She would look great in TV commercials during Pool broadcasts on ESPN. Would be ideal for paper advertisements in billiard magazines. Even would be good as a booth girl at a pool event. (APA Vegas, BCA Vegas, Expo, Derby, USOpen, etc). Even the bits with her on Spike were kinda cool.

There are plenty of ways for her to promote pool and her sponsors without being touted as an actual player.

Like others have said, when she goes to a tourney and represents the US, it looks bad on US because it's as if she is one of the best we could send.

1. So is Shanelle meeting the requirements for the tournaments that she is entering, which are open tournaments to anyone that can pay the entry? Check.

2. Is she having fun by doing something she really enjoys? Check.

3. Is she trying to gain experience and improve? Check.

4. Is she delivering on what she was hired to do, which is to represent a brand in a professional manner and get them exposure? In spades.

(I added number to the quote, for the sake of argument purposes.)

1. Agreed

2. This can be argued. At an event like the SBE, sure. She is probably having a blast, signing autographs, playing Scotch with pros, etc.

At an actual high level tournament, I dont know if this would be true. Sure she is possibly getting paid to be there and her entry fee is probably paid for her, but those are no exactly in the recipe of a good time at a pool tournament. Just from my own experience, getting blown out in every match I play and getting knocked out of the tournament immediately is super frustrating, embarassing, hard to take. I can only imagine that this is tough on her. Sure we all like to play against people of a higher caliber, but it is no fun getting in the ring with people you know you dont have a chance against and having them prove that too you by walking all over you. It's one thing playing against the better players to acutally get better. She has that at her disposal with Charlie and other Dragon Pros. Do it in a different setting though. I mean here she is being broadcasted on TV and entire countries are seeing how she cant even put up a fight.

3. This kinda goes with number 2 IMO. She may be gaining some experience but whether SHE is trying to or not remains to be seen. It could be part of her sponsorship to go to these events. She may not want.

4. Technically yes. When it comes to Pool in the US, she is only marketing to people who already knew about the brands and what they have to offer. I cannot speak for other countries.

All this being said, I'm not trying to discourage her from learning how to play. The more pool players in the world the better. I am trying to discourage her Sponsors from entering her into high level pro events. It's probably more embarassing for her, her country and her sponsors then it is doing any good. Just my opinion.

 

[buddha162]

Your gripe is with the promoter, who should never allow a tournament to be open if it is intended for pro level players. All Shanelle did was enter a tournament that was specifically set up to be open--certainly no crime. Your frustration/disappointment/anger is directed at the wrong person.

Thanks but I'll be the judge of that. I'll blame multiple parties for this, certainly feel no need to limit it to Shanelle or the promoters or CW etc. Everyone should be held responsible for that display of embarrassment.

And there are quite a few, probably several dozen, that are more deserving of the exposure and income that Jeanette Lee gets when you take looks out of the equation and go with just skill. Shanelle isn't alone in this. Unfortunately that is life, looks count.

No shit buddy, looks count. My point is that it shouldn't count to the degree that it has in Shanelle Lorrain's case. Scroll up to read my views on JL.

 

[Jive]

I saw her Amway Game and she does su*k, not sure if it's the nerves but it's the first time i watch pool on TV/Computer and think "dam..even i can beat this fellow"...yup women's competition included...

Does she deserve to be there? Sure why not, as long as it does the sport good.

Many years back there was a horrid singer/dancer named William Hung that auditioned for American Idols...he got pretty popular and well it did the show good.

In the music industry you don't have to sing well to be popular, just need to be packaged well and have people be interested in you. The Spice Girls couldn't sing and they got pretty popular and made loads of money...same goes for most boybands that emerged in the 90's. They looked good and they won awards based on their popularity, they were marketable. A singer is suppose to sing well? Not really..at least thats not the only formula to make money...OR make the music scene more talked about.

Although Pool is a sport and skills are important, inorder for there to be money on the table to be won someone must be willing to put money into the pot. So as long as a sponsor is willing put money in because some eye-candy is appearing in the game, why not?

Unlike singing, Shanelle actually has a chance to become really good even if she su*k now..cos pool isn't all about what you're born with...hardwork pays off so i'm rooting her to play better.

All we need now is a real trendy, good looking fellow playing pool pro level and i'm sure Nike will start making cues!

 

[C.Milian]

Thanks but I'll be the judge of that. I'll blame multiple parties for this, certainly feel no need to limit it to Shanelle or the promoters or CW etc. Everyone should be held responsible for that display of embarrassment.



No shit buddy, looks count. My point is that it shouldn't count to the degree that it has in Shanelle Lorrain's case. Scroll up to read my views on JL.

Looks count if you want it to. I guess it's a matter of how we look at things. I just believe there is a purpose for why things are the way they are. Also I find it nice that someone can smile and chuckle about losing 7-0 on national TV. She seems to sincerely appreciate the girls talent. That's my read. Whatever the case, I think she is really likable.

You examplified Jeanette, and I think Shanelle has many same qualities, so why can't she be good at promoting something we all love? Actually i think it would be great if the two get together and.....(sorry...I'm getting imaginative now)...

 

[ShootingArts]

I assume you realize you are full of bull!

This is making me rofl. My point about you is that you actually think you can square this circle with semantics. You're ten miles away from taking a snarky tone.

I'm not interested in finding a definition of "professional" that qualifies Shanelle Lorrain. My central point all along is that she can't play at pro level, that she has ZERO business competing in a professional level tournament, and that there are hundreds of individuals more deserving of such exposure.

I assume you realize you are full of bull since you no longer attempt to address my posts.

Nothing wrong with bailing into competition with the best. The first race I drove and the class of car I learned to drive was the highest class stock cars available in a several state area. Did I look bad the first couple months? Hell Yeah! Did I progress many times faster than people that started in hobby cars and worked their way up? Hell Yeah!

When I started shooting benchrest my first match was a registered shoot and the state championship. Some of the very best in the world were there. I think I finished second to last, in front of the other guy there that didn't have a benchrest rifle either. My second event was not only against the best in the world, it was one of the five biggest events in the world! Didn't win that one either. Before too long the best knew when I showed up though and I eventually beat champions, hall of famers, and world record holders. Not nearly as often as they beat me it is true. This happened within a few years of wading in competing with the best. I also unofficially bombed the 100 yard 10.5 pound gun world record in that time period. The last I knew my aggregate shot about ten years ago into official target tag within official time limits was still below the official world record which can only be set at certain events.

I know for a fact there were some that said I didn't belong when I started racing stock cars in the highest division. I suspect that there were some that said the same when I started shooting rifles at the highest level as a rank beginner. Mixing it up with the best is a trial by fire. If your ego is too big to take losing, even a major thumping, then best to stay in the wading pool. If you have the heart to get in there with the best you just might find yourself keeping up with them before long.

Shanelle seems to have heart and desire. Some time with a real coach and continuing to compete with the best might lead to some surprises for many people. Even if not, she is out there trying. Those that have never tried have never failed or felt the public embarrassment of being badly beaten in front of thousands or millions, but they will never know the feelings of a winner either!

Hu

 

[lee brett]

Think she needs to get a new coach imo.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I think comparing her with Jeanette isn't accurate.

Jeanette has proved herself over the years as a a great player. She has won multiple tournaments and beaten many strong players. Sure she is attractive and that has helped with her success, but unlike Shanelle, she is able to back up her good looks with a good game.

 

[buddha162]

I assume you realize you are full of bull since you no longer attempt to address my posts.

...followed by yet more white noise...

Hu

Your posts are hardly worth reading, let alone addressing. It's clear to anyone paying attention that my problem is Lorrain not playing at a pro LEVEL. Your attempts to define "professional" in this context is purely asinine.

I hope she gets better and reaches that pro level. But until that happens, she shouldn't subject pool fans to subpar pool in a professional tournament.

 

[buddha162]

I think comparing her with Jeanette isn't accurate.

Jeanette has proved herself over the years as a a great player. She has won multiple tournaments and beaten many strong players. Sure she is attractive and that has helped with her success, but unlike Shanelle, she is able to back up her good looks with a good game.

The comparison is apt to a certain point. Jeanette is irrefutably the most recognized pool player alive, while there are many more deserving of that recognition if you go by skills alone.

The difference, as you point out, is JL actually performs at a pro speed, while Shanelle is miles away.

 

[buddha162]

Looks count if you want it to. I guess it's a matter of how we look at things. I just believe there is a purpose for why things are the way they are. Also I find it nice that someone can smile and chuckle about losing 7-0 on national TV. She seems to sincerely appreciate the girls talent. That's my read. Whatever the case, I think she is really likable.

You examplified Jeanette, and I think Shanelle has many same qualities, so why can't she be good at promoting something we all love? Actually i think it would be great if the two get together and.....(sorry...I'm getting imaginative now)...

Well, this is what I wrote re JL earlier in the thread:

"Jeanette Lee is a tireless self-promoter who makes up for her lack in skills with purely cynical, yellow-feverish slutness.

Having said that, J. Lee can give Shanelle the 6 out any day of the week."

Recall all those years of Allison and then Karen shutting Jeanette out of every last tournament, while JL still retained more exposure/money etc. The same debate went on in countless threads across this board. The difference is no one ever questioned JL's qualifications to at least compete with the champions.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Sure, by definition she is a professional. By playing standards, she isnt close.

Agreed, and everybody knows it.

Why not have Poison/Dragon Promotions/whoever use her for marketing. She would look great in TV commercials during Pool broadcasts on ESPN. Would be ideal for paper advertisements in billiard magazines. Even would be good as a booth girl at a pool event. (APA Vegas, BCA Vegas, Expo, Derby, USOpen, etc). Even the bits with her on Spike were kinda cool.

There are plenty of ways for her to promote pool and her sponsors without being touted as an actual player.

I agree that she could and should be utilized even more in other ways. I just can't find fault in entering an open tournament, whether I personally like it or not. I don't like most Karaoke singers either, but at the same time I don't think its my place to tell them they can't go up on stage. If the promoters want a tournament to be open, who am I to tell them that they should want something different? If the promoters don't really want the lower tier players to show up, and want it to be a higher level event, then I should be pissed at the promoter for making it open instead of having some kind or skill requirement or qualification in place to protect its integrity.

It could easily be argued that the US Open and the Derby City Classic would be much better tournaments if they weren't open but I guess there are some tournaments that are looking to give one experience, and others that are looking to give a different experience. Where the problem lies is when the promoter fails to do what is needed to make sure he delivers the experience he intended (like if you really want it to only be high level but fail to protect that by making it an open event).

Like others have said, when she goes to a tourney and represents the US, it looks bad on US because it's as if she is one of the best we could send.

I can understand this and feel it myself. But when I think about it logically, I know that everyone out there knows that "hacks" enter in every open tournament, and would assume her to be one of them. They would know she isn't a representative of the top skill level in the US. If a foreign hack player at Shanell's level from whatever country came and played the Womens US Open, would you really think she was reresentative of the top level of play in her country? I actually cringe more when one of our 16-32 ranked type player travels to play, because they play just good enough that they could assume that to be our top level. But then you have this... Do you really think there is anyone out that is a player or fan of pool that isn't at least somewhat familiar with US womens pool, and some of our biggest stars? They are definitely familiar with our better players and know the level that exists over here.

2. This can be argued. At an event like the SBE, sure. She is probably having a blast, signing autographs, playing Scotch with pros, etc.

At an actual high level tournament, I dont know if this would be true. Sure she is possibly getting paid to be there and her entry fee is probably paid for her, but those are no exactly in the recipe of a good time at a pool tournament. Just from my own experience, getting blown out in every match I play and getting knocked out of the tournament immediately is super frustrating, embarassing, hard to take. I can only imagine that this is tough on her. Sure we all like to play against people of a higher caliber, but it is no fun getting in the ring with people you know you dont have a chance against and having them prove that too you by walking all over you. It's one thing playing against the better players to acutally get better. She has that at her disposal with Charlie and other Dragon Pros. Do it in a different setting though. I mean here she is being broadcasted on TV and entire countries are seeing how she cant even put up a fight.

3. This kinda goes with number 2 IMO. She may be gaining some experience but whether SHE is trying to or not remains to be seen. It could be part of her sponsorship to go to these events. She may not want.

4. Technically yes. When it comes to Pool in the US, she is only marketing to people who already knew about the brands and what they have to offer. I cannot speak for other countries.

2. I agree and thought of that. Heck, one of the biggest things she has to fade is all the smack talk about her on the internet. But in the end I concluded she must be enjoying herself overall with the positives, that includes the fun, outweighing the negatives in her book (at least for now) because she continues to do it.

3. I think she is trying to an extent, but I certainly do not think she is trying her best. For whatever reason she does not choose to dedicate her life to the pursuit of reaching her full pool potential. Maybe it is because there is just no money in pool. Maybe it is because she has other interests that are a priority of her focus, or her career has most of her focus (I think I recall reading that she has a degree and a pretty decent day job, but could be wrong. She also pursues modeling and other similar work to at least an extent it seems). Maybe it is because she already realizes she doesn't have the talent to ever be a world beater. Maybe it is a combination of things. Who knows. What I do know is that she was playing the game, and making at least some effort to improve, long before anybody knew who she was and before she had any kind of a sponsorship deal. She didn't start playing pool because someone paid her. They paid her because she was already playing and making an effort to improve, along with the other reasons...

4. I'm guessing that she brings at least some attention to Dragon Promotions and whatever else to people who were not so aware of them both in US and abroad. How much is hard to say. Heck, not just every pool player is getting the exposure of being on spike tv these days, as well as all the other exposure she gets. I have to assume if she wasn't getting them enough exposure to new people that she would be dropped, because that's the way it works.

All this being said, I'm not trying to discourage her from learning how to play. The more pool players in the world the better. I am trying to discourage her Sponsors from entering her into high level pro events. It's probably more embarassing for her, her country and her sponsors then it is doing any good. Just my opinion.

Either we want open tournaments, and have to accept the negatives that come with it (like crappy players entering), or we don't want open tournaments and have to deal with the drawbacks that come with that (like not being able to get that kind of experience, test your skill against better players, get to play with your idols, etc). Or as I said earlier, we could recognize that there should be both, that there is a time and an place for each type, and hold the promoters responsible if they fail to ensure that their tournament fulfills which one it was really supposed to be. If this most recent tournament was supposed to be a showcase of the world's best (which it kind of seems to me), then we should be stringing the promoters up by their toenails for allowing such a debacle and not protecting against it. On the other hand, maybe they envision it and want it to progress more like the Derby, open to any and everyone.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Maybe the "problem" is with the events... I think it is more along the lines of the players sponsors though myself. Her sponsors are entering her into these events knowing she has no shot at even winning 1 match.

I hope she is having a good time in these events, because I can see all the other players probably just rolling their eyes or even laughing at her behind her back. It kind of does bring the vent some down as well, expecially when her matches are televised simply because of her good looks. Or maybe the Tournament Coodinators are unfamiliar with how she plays and they put her on TV.

I dont know. All in all, IMO, I think her sponsors should put a little more effort into teaching her to play (provided she actually wants to learn to play pool and not just look like a pool player analyzing shots). She has been on the scene for over 3 years now and has sponsors and has high level pros giving her instruction. I do not know if she does anything for a living othre then this or not, but 3 years with a pro I think she should be playing a little better then what she does.. but then this all delves into if she is willing to learn, if the instructor is a good teacher, how many times has she gotten lessons... etc etc.

Too many factors... I almost want to say she is wasting people's time (as well as their money) but if I was in the tournament and drew her, I'd be happy as hell.

 

[BrooklynJay]

shouldn't a lot of the blame be put on CW and DP? they are the one's who introduced Shanelle to the pool world. the fact that it's been 3 years plus and she's still a D player, with world class coaching, is embarrassing. the fact that they continue to embarass her by putting her in competitions she is clearly not ready for is humilitating. i'm embarassed for her, for women's pool and for the fact that she was one of two representatives of the USA in the Amway event. the Shanelle experiment is over. it's a giant FAIL. End it already.

 

[C.Milian]

I assume you realize you are full of bull since you no longer attempt to address my posts.

Nothing wrong with bailing into competition with the best. The first race I drove and the class of car I learned to drive was the highest class stock cars available in a several state area. Did I look bad the first couple months? Hell Yeah! Did I progress many times faster than people that started in hobby cars and worked their way up? Hell Yeah!

When I started shooting benchrest my first match was a registered shoot and the state championship. Some of the very best in the world were there. I think I finished second to last, in front of the other guy there that didn't have a benchrest rifle either. My second event was not only against the best in the world, it was one of the five biggest events in the world! Didn't win that one either. Before too long the best knew when I showed up though and I eventually beat champions, hall of famers, and world record holders. Not nearly as often as they beat me it is true. This happened within a few years of wading in competing with the best. I also unofficially bombed the 100 yard 10.5 pound gun world record in that time period. The last I knew my aggregate shot about ten years ago into official target tag within official time limits was still below the official world record which can only be set at certain events.

I know for a fact there were some that said I didn't belong when I started racing stock cars in the highest division. I suspect that there were some that said the same when I started shooting rifles at the highest level as a rank beginner. Mixing it up with the best is a trial by fire. If your ego is too big to take losing, even a major thumping, then best to stay in the wading pool. If you have the heart to get in there with the best you just might find yourself keeping up with them before long.

Shanelle seems to have heart and desire. Some time with a real coach and continuing to compete with the best might lead to some surprises for many people. Even if not, she is out there trying. Those that have never tried have never failed or felt the public embarrassment of being badly beaten in front of thousands or millions, but they will never know the feelings of a winner either!

Hu

Let's kidnap her and take her to LA. Hold her for ransom...what u think? It'll workout. We get rich and you turn her into a champ.

 

[C.Milian]

Well, this is what I wrote re JL earlier in the thread:

"Jeanette Lee is a tireless self-promoter who makes up for her lack in skills with purely cynical, yellow-feverish slutness.

Having said that, J. Lee can give Shanelle the 6 out any day of the week."

Recall all those years of Allison and then Karen shutting Jeanette out of every last tournament, while JL still retained more exposure/money etc. The same debate went on in countless threads across this board. The difference is no one ever questioned JL's qualifications to at least compete with the champions.

Yeah, Jeanette also was on the face of pin ball machines and video games, video shoots, playboy magazines. She sounds like a nice person, adopted a kid....I think I'll have to kidnap her too....

Well, if the main concern is her getting better, I think it can be done. Maybe she just didn't have enough time. And whoever her coach is, maybe he/she didn't have enough time. It's not that hard to get really good. Let's see...500 hrs of snooker. 1000 hrs of billiards. Few thousand hours of rotation and one pocket.....(I'm going on my third blind in the juiciest game in the world)

 

[Poolplaya9]

Thanks but I'll be the judge of that. I'll blame multiple parties for this, certainly feel no need to limit it to Shanelle or the promoters or CW etc. Everyone should be held responsible for that display of embarrassment.



No shit buddy, looks count. My point is that it shouldn't count to the degree that it has in Shanelle Lorrain's case. Scroll up to read my views on JL.

Judge all you want, but it doesn't mean you are right. Now you are saying that the fault lies all around. Even if you were right, here is the thing though. I don't recall ever hearing you tear into a sponsor for this. I can't recall you giving the third degree to any tournament promoter for this either. And perhaps the most important and telling thing, I certainly don't recall you ripping into all the men out there doing the exact same thing entering open tournaments that are way out of their league (if there is such a thing as an open tournament being out of someones league, because it is after all, well, open), and certainly not to the extent that you seem to be fixated on it with Shanelle. Maybe you just hate women, I don't know, but you sure have fixated on her for some reason. But there are plenty of men out there doing the same thing and I don't recall hearing from you on it with the same ferocity, if at all. If I'm wrong, kindly point me to all those threads.

As far Jeanette and the attention/money goes, she is worse than Shanelle in this regard in my opinion, and here is why. Yes, the disparity in talent between Shanelle and the world class women is far greater than with Jeanette. But Shanelle's looks/personality/marketing advantage is getting her probably at most the same pay as the average woman pro earns, and probably not even anywhere close to that. Jeanettes looks are making her obscene amounts of money, over a million dollars a year per Jay Helfert's estimate.

Take Vivian Villareal as just one example. Vivian Villareal and Jeanette Lee have almost identical careers when it comes to accomplishments. They have for the last 20 years been neck and neck in rankings, going up and down in rankings together, trading back and forth, but almost never separating by more than a couple of places in the rankings. They started on tour at about the same time, they both peaked about the same time, they both got to the #1 ranking for a brief period of time and not that far apart, they both won around the same amount of tournaments and around the same time frames, they both hit a major slump about the same time and went down in the rankings to about the same place, and they both started climbing back up the rankings at about the same rate and to the same spot, etc. You could not find two more identical careers.

But Jeanette is making something like 20 times (!) as much as Vivian, and it is because of her looks. Do you think if Jeannette was ugly she would be where she is? Hell no. And arguably (not really so arguably) Vivian has a way better personality. And its not just Vivian, Jeanette makes many many, many, times more than any other woman pro (even the #1), all of the DOZENS of the females (and thousands of the males) that are better than her, and all because of her looks. I find this way more obscene than what Shanelle has managed to do with hers. No comparison. Not even close.