If you see a friend shooting well, but going by bad info, do you correct him?

CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Say your buddy is shooting quite strong, rapidly improving, he went from zero to B-player really fast.
But at some point he picked up a misconception about how to play properly.
(well, you feel it's a misconception at least.)

The misconception can be anything. He thinks you need to jack up a bit for long draw shots. He doesn't believe deflection exists. He thinks he can only play with a sniper tip and no other tip spins the ball correctly.

Do you go out of your way to correct it?
What if he's actually better than you, or got to the same level faster?
What if he shows signs that he doesn't want to hear it, do you persist?

I guess you can see where I'm going. We recently saw PJ get banned for doggedly correcting what he felt is bad info from CJ, Stevie Moore, and others. He will (grudgingly) admit the concepts in their posts might "work", but not the way they claim. I guess he feels that even if some people are helped by the misconception, more people will be helped with the truth.

So, a three part discussion question. Brings back high school tests but hopefully less boring...

• If you know something is working for your friend... do you just accept it? Or is it more important that he knows the truth, regardless of how that might impact his game?

• Does knowing the truth ALWAYS help your game? Or is it possible there are situations where the 'placebo effect' actually helps a player improve more rapidly than knowing the absolute truth?

• Is it possible not knowing the truth can hold you back? Like it gets you to "B" rapidly, but you'll never reach "A" because of your lack of understanding?

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My feeling is that sometimes knowing the absolute truth doesn't help you, and may even confuse the issue. For example, I read a book that pretty well convinced me that antidepressants work mostly with the placebo effect. Someone close to me takes them. I didn't tell that person what I'd read because the pills are working for them and I don't see any percentage in 'fixing' that.

Pool physics are very complex, so we try to boil them down to rules of thumb. For example, the cue ball doesn't really move at a mirror angle when we kick it off a rail, but a lot of kicking systems are built on mirror systems, and then you figure out tweaks to make the system work like "I add a little running english for sharp kicks and none for wider kicks".

I used to feel I needed to correct CTE posts but as I think about it, who's to say boiling all cuts down to three cut angles (or however it works) is less valid than boiling down a kicking system to three reference lines?

I've also experienced firsthand the fact that the brain and vision work in funny ways. Everything we see is subtly fish-eyed, not straight and flat like a 3D render on a monitor. There are huge gaps in our vision and our brain fills in these gaps with guesswork. There are numerous ways a certain combination of visuals completely alters what you see.

So if someone offers a trick that shouldn't work on paper, it might work and it might have nothing to do with physics or even the placebo effect. It might work because our brain is capable of constant adjustments when faced with a barrage of information. For example, Bert Kinister has a shot where you're frozen to the head rail and trying to make a slight (2-4 degree) full table cut into the corner. It's a difficult shot. He says aim at the middle of the ball like you wanted to just hit it square in the face without cutting it. The ball then cuts in anyway.

Does it cut because my eyes lied to me about the original angle? Was it straight in all along? When I line up to aim straight, are my eyes lying to me and making the correct cut angle look straight in? Am I lining up to hit straight by my brain is steering my arm midstroke?

Does it matter, if I keep making the ball? What if someone questions it and I can't make the ball anymore, was that helpful?
 
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If someone is a "B" player or better, they're either the Doogie Howser of cue sports, or they've been playing long enough to have learned to separate truth from myth.
 
Mr. CreeDo,

There's alot in there.

I'm sure you've heard, Those that can do, do...those that can't do...teach. ( There are certainly those that can do & also teach.)

I think it comes down to just that from one's perspective of what one wants to do. Does one want to play well or does one want know how it all actually is supposed to work in detail so one might be able to teach others to do well even if oneself may not be able to do it so well themselves & maybe that is because they lack the perception of the one that can do.

So if one can't do, does one want to learn that perception from the one that can do or does want to know all the details of how it is supposed to be done from the one that can't do?

Does one want to know how to do it or does one want to know why it can't actually be done the way the one that is doing it does it in his mind.

I can speak from an athlete's perspective & a coach's perspective & as one with high school & college physics.

From a performance perspective, hypothetically, it was 'Pistol' Pete's grey socks that allowed him to do everything he could do with a basketball.

From a coaches's perspective, Pete, you can't really believe that, Please take those socks off, they stink...
okay you're right, put 'em back on.

From a teacher's perspective I am never going to teach that one needs old dirty worn out socks to play basketball well.

The bottom line is performance & if it's in Pistol Pete's mind & he says & believes that he can't play well with out his grey socks, then he can't.

Now, if Pete's gym bag gets stolen & Pete one day find's out that he can indeed play well without his grey socks, then Pete might say, 'it wasn't really the grey socks....but I still wish I could get them back it was much simpler back then & with alot less pressure.'

Another point is that the coach does not call Pete an ignorant, idiotic, moron for wearing his grey socks, epsecially while he's averaging 44+ points per game when 3 point shots did not exist. (while some may not use direct insults they certainly can be suggestively insulting at times)

Now if Pete explains to me why the grey socks helped him play so well & I put on grey socks & put up 40 points, I really don't care why the basketball teacher says the grey socks can not really be helping me because I just put up 40 points while wearing grey socks & I've never done that before. Can the basketball teacher tell me something to get me to put up 40 points?

If it is as simple as play by the numbers like paint by the numbers, then everyone would be a great artist. But it's not because the graet artist sees beyond the numbers & don't follow the numbers they add their 'TOUCH' to the painting.

I hope you see my points.

Best Regards to You &
 
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Mention it once. If he ignores it, don't ever offer advice again.

He doesn't want advice and continuing to "harp" on stuff will make you seem like a nag.
 
bdorman said:
Mention it once. If he ignores it, don't ever offer advice again.

He doesn't want advice and continuing to "harp" on stuff will make you seem like a nag.
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I agree, more or less.

I know, and play with, a couple of pretty decent players with whom I've had this exact "problem." I've given them the truth, yet they continue to play, and play fairly well, under their old misconceptions; so I just let it go.

The only exception I make is during league play, on the rare occasion one of them calls me for a coach in a situation involving their misconception. Then, and only then, do I coach them on the correct way to play the shot. However, I don't even mention their misconception. I just say: "No, you just need to play it <this way>" and leave it at that. Hopefully they'll play the shot the way it needs to be played, execute correctly, and everyone can continue on believing whatever they want.
 
I'm a believer in the old saying "when a student is ready they will seek instruction"

Your friend, being a B player will sooner or later hit a brick wall and begin to start searching for the answers for better improvement.

Be close when he starts saying things like, "I cant believe I missed that shot" and other hints that he is not happy with his play.

Thats where you, the friend step in and start making constructive suggestions to improve his play.

Practice together, offer suggestions but dont tell him he is doing anything wrong. Just state that in your experience you have done it this way and it worked real well. He will catch on to what you are saying and give it a try. Tell tale signs that your efforts are helping is to look for a little bit of a grin on your friends face after the shot execution. Thats a dead give away that its all soaking in.

Have fun and I wish you and your friend the very best. :smile:

John
 
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I'd say if he's a legitimate B level player, he's doing it right enough. He sounds a little like Bustamante with the way you're describing his techniques. I doubt anyone is giving Django much advice on how not to stroke or elevate his cue for draw or...whatever. Everyone wants to get into teaching each other "correct" technique (whatever that is) or how the whole perception part of the game works (to each his own). But at the end of the day, all that matters is what the cue ball and object ball do after your tip hits the CB. How he gets it there is up to him, and as long as what he does works consistently, so what? I appreciate what you're asking; but I really don't think he'll take much advice to heart...at least as long as he's winning. Beat him until he asks for the 7, then offer him advice...maybe he'll listen then. ;)
 
Mr. CreeDo was speaking hypothetically I believe with regards to PJ always being technically corrective even to the point of spelling & grammer corrections.
 
Yup, sorry if it wasn't clear everyone.
This is not about an actual friend I'm trying to coach.

This is truly hypothetical... in general terms, I'm asking people:
"Is it worth it to correct pool players no matter what? Or are there circumstances where it might be better to just let them believe a 'lie'?"

I'm thinking mostly about whether guys like PJ who correct the pros are doing something useful for pool (or at least the forum). But you could apply the same question to a real life situation where you see a friend laboring under some misconception.

To me, there's a lot of reasons why we should just let CJ and Stevie Moore tout their systems.

• Maybe the systems work in some theoretical way that isn't strictly physics based, but taps into how the brain works, how the eyes see things, etc. ...Or they work with some subtle quirk of physics that the scientific guys overlooked. There are things that don't fit on a piece of paper but are nonetheless real and strongly affect a player's shooting ability.

• Even if it IS all a placebo effect, maybe correcting the misconception ruins all potential benefit from that effect, and hurts more people than it helps. The doubters have to question their motives here. As Wilson pointed out, was PJ really out to help some hypothetical newbie reading the thread? or is it really just the ego taking over and saying "look at me, I'm smart too!"

...if PJ successfully convinced 20 people that TOI made little sense and denied them even some illusory "placebo improvement", would he feel like he accomplished something to help better those players? Would he be pleased with that outcome?

• The forum is unquestionably better with pros on it. Even if someone firmly believes their system is a bunch of marketing BS, it's nice to have a pro's perspective in other unrelated threads. For example, if CJ had been driven off the board long ago, who would be able to tell us what it's like coaching a mosconi cup team playing at york hall? Skimming over the 'informercials' is a small price to pay to get an champion's perspective on other topics.

• Sometimes an overly simplified shortcut gets the job done better. Promising someone a shortcut to great play might seem like a callous marketing gimmick, but arguably it's just accepting the reality that most people don't have the patience to labor over every nuance. The system or shortcut sets the hook, and it's up to the individual what happens from there.

• There's the obvious risk of getting banned. I think it's pretty clear by now that the guy(s) running the site are fine with whatever CJ or stevie want to post.

So that's the "cons". And what are the "pros" to doggedly correcting these guys?
At best, someone walks away with a better understanding of ball physics? The forum has 3 fewer threads to sift through?
 
If the "friend" asks for help then help, otherwise I play by the "mind your own business" mentality.

If they advanced that rapidly with misconceptions, then I'm sure they'll either eventually figure it out or progress even farther. Either way I'd be concerned with why I didn't continue progressing.
 
When he misses and pops up, I'll tell him he might should stay down. Other than that, if it aint broke, I don't believe in fixing it.
 
2andOUT said:
If the "friend" asks for help then help, otherwise I play by the "mind your own business" mentality.
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CreeDo,

Your hypothetical situation has a " This all depends" appeal to me.

If they are a good friend, i'll do my best to help them even if they resist/reject my suggestion(s) initially. If they continually rebuff me, I'd let them be.

If they are just someone you play pool with, let them learn on their own.

I should state here that I am willing to help almost anyone; however they must be willing to at least accept/try your advice.

(I don't normally put my hands in alligator's mouths)
 
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As my friend used to tell me it's the tone that makes the music. And unsolicited advice is often taken with as much appreciation as what you were asking for it, namely nothing.

That said it depends on the situation.

If it's a buddy at the pool room then sure I will take the opportunity to enlighten him by sincerely trying to help him understand more about the game.

If it's a clinic at the poolroom put on by a pro or even just a lesson that one guy is giving to another guy I won't interrupt and let it go. About the only time I ever interrupt is when I see things going so very badly as in one guy trying to teach jumping and failing. I happen to be really good at teaching jumping so I can't stand to see people struggling.

Also when I am playing and I see my opponent make the wrong shot choice I will often show them the alternatives between games.

One of the most enjoyable things in a pool room is when a group of us get together and trade shots. We challenge each other and discuss theory and show off techniques. We don't put each down or call each other stupid or clueless and we don't pull out pie charts and graphs. We set up shots and demonstrate them and bounce concepts off each other.

To me that's what it's all about, not beating each other up because we don't know the rate of squirt with a 10.7" pivot point.
 
If it's not holding him back , then no. Whatever get's the job done.

Most of the time they don't listen anyway.....
 
I was recently at a funeral where one of the eulogizers decided it was a good time to talk about the deceased's illegal drug use. This didn't go over so well.

What I took from that was - sometimes the truth is overrated.
 
It really comes down to this....

How do you KNOW that it's bad info?

What do you want them to get out of the game?

If they are improving with bad info, they may get to a point where the bad info is a hindrance to their game rather than a help.

Then again, it may not BE bad info.

Or they may be conceptually playing better because of their belief.

If there's no problem with them getting a sniper tip and they feel most comfortable playing with one. There's no reason to say, hey you might play better with a Kamui...

Hell, the pro ballers that wear the same sock every time they play might start playing like ass if you make them take it off.

It's what works best for you...

I had tried going to a ld shaft and changed my preshot routine and while I was able to play as good or better for short periods I had to switch back because my consistency went out the window and I had nothing to fall back on.

So what might be bad info in one person's mind might be exactly what another person needs to hit that next level...

Jaden
 
Funny this topic came up. I have a friend who is also a teammate on two of my league teams. He is a better player than me (he is also about 35 years younger than me, too!). He has what I believe is a flaw (maybe not to everyone, but I think it is) in his practice strokes. He pumps that cuestick 900 m.p.h. for about six or seven strokes then pulls the trigger. Why do I think this is flawed? Because he does this on all shots, whether they are to be played with a power stroke OR just a softly hit, slow-rolled cueball. On a shot that needs finesse, he pumps that cue 900 m.p.h. and then on his last backstroke, he puts the brakes on at the furthermost point in the backswing and shoots the shot by physically and w/effort, slowing down his cue at the beginning of his final forestroke. It looks awkward and I believe he misses more finesse-type shots than he should, given he is a SL7 (APA). I have had to fight myself to keep my mouth shut as I feel that one's practice strokes should be taken more closely related to the speed in which you are going to shoot the shot. But then, I too could be wrong.

What works for some, or even many, still will not work for everybody. Aimings systems are seen/viewed differently through each individuals eyes. To say that a particular system can help EVERYONE is pure foolishness. Do I think they are good? Why yes, but not just one or two of them. Each and every one of them has their own merit, and I'm sure they all have helped someone, somewhere throughout the world's poolhalls.

To answer the question, I generally try to stay out of people's business, unless my opinion is aked for or they are just total newbies to the game.

It's a shame that someone had to get banned because he just couldn't let go of his own obsession of the topic. He had a lot of good input in many other subjects in this forum.

Maniac
 
Was just thinking about one more thing that should be said.

When you disagree fundamentally with something that someone pro or not has said about how to play the game then perhaps it's better to simply make a new thread about that concept.

Instead of derailing the original thread just isolate the concept and open a new discussion about it. No need to be insulting or otherwise disruptive.

Because here is the thing...unless you approach a point in the right way you are almost guaranteed to be in a fight instead of civil discussion. Believe me, I know.

Maybe by having a new and fresh discussion the person who made the disputed point could possibly see it from a fresh perspective and revise their original assertion.
 
If you are on "sharing information" terms or good friends.....sure. If not, remember you'd be giving unsolicited advice and more often than not, people do not respond well to unsolicited advice.

Does it annoy you when someone knocks on your door and tries to sell you something? Most people find that annoying and likely aren't going to buy let alone listen. Approaching someone in a pool hall to give them advice is much like someone knocking on your door trying to sell you something.
 
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