I'm having some serious issues with layered tips. Help?

[spindoctor9]

Ok, so I had been using Triangles since the dawn of time. I bought a Joey cue earlier this year with Kamui black mediums on it. Both of them split down the side and chunks broke off within a couple months. I loved the feel of them and assumed they must have just been defective, so I gave them another shot. This time a brown medium and a brown hard. Same thing; they played great but cracked down the side wall to the ferrule, eventually splitting off and delaminating rendering them unusable. I have heard nothing but great things about Kamui so I tried again. Same ordeal. This has happened with 6 Kamuis and one Talisman within about 5 months. These tips were from three different sources and definitely not the fakes going around. My tip guy is now telling I must have a bad stroke. I'm an APA 7/8 and I finish high in all of the local tournaments... I stroke the ball pretty well. I do have a big stroke and I like to use it during practice, but I've never damaged a Triangle in my years of using them. What the hell is going on here? Anyone have a similar issue? In APA, you cannot switch cues during a rack after the break, so I do have to use my playing cue for jump shots. But a $20 tip should be able to handle any shot, especially when their website advertises that their tips are great for breaking.

I do use one of these to keep the walls of the tip straight and flush:

Porper tip burnisher

Could this tapered plastic tube be weakening the tip? No one else that I know of is having an issue after using the burnisher. I will not use it on my next layered tips to find out.

So, is anyone else experiencing this or am I just a freak of nature? I need whatever tips Larry Nevel is using lol.

Help a brotha out! Thanks guys

EDIT: OK everyone thanks for the replies and concern. I'm pretty sure that tapered burnisher was the issue and I have already thrown it away. If this problem ever happens again, I'll post about it. For now, problem solved.

 

[rellek]

I have been using the same Kamui black medium for the last year and other than a little glazing I have had no issues with it.

 

[desi2960]

i don't know you or the kamui tip

but just from reading what you wrote, and the amount of tips, 2 different brands, and 3 different suppliers that leads me to only one conclusion, its not the tips

 

[spindoctor9]

but just from reading what you wrote, and the amount of tips, 2 different brands, and 3 different suppliers that leads me to only one conclusion, its not the tips

Yeah I get that, obviously all these tips aren't defective. But my stroke sure as hell isn't defective.


I'm a strong guy, lift weights, and break at 27+ mph. Anyone know what Larry Nevel has on his shafts? I have a similar playing style. If my stroke is breaking these tips, then his stroke would have broken them in half the time.

I've also cracked 2 shafts, broken probably 6 ferrules, and I've cracked a couple Aramith cue balls when I used to break with a phenolic tip.

I guess I just have to back off on power, though I feel like I'm already soft stroking full table draw shots on the 9'.

I should just stick with the triangles. They last me a year and the good ones don't flatten out like the Kamuis anyway. I just wish they had that solid, lively feel of layered tips!

 

[PGHteacher]

but just from reading what you wrote, and the amount of tips, 2 different brands, and 3 different suppliers that leads me to only one conclusion, its not the tips

This is my 1st thought to. You are doing something; leaving it in your car, where you leave your case, using a tip pick, using marker on the sides etc.. etc.. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the way you play pool. I suggest approaching tip maintenance and care differently than you do now. Hopefully you kept the tips; send them to kamui and ask them what happened to them.

 

[spindoctor9]

This is my 1st thought to. You are doing something; leaving it in your car, where you leave your case, using a tip pick, using marker on the sides etc.. etc.. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the way you play pool. I suggest approaching tip maintenance and care differently than you do now. Hopefully you kept the tips; send them to kamui and ask them what happened to them.

I always keep my cues in the house and I don't use a marker on the sides. I do poke the tip a little before I play but so does everyone I play with... Maybe my shaper is weakening the edge. I will shape with sand paper only next time and see what happens. I emailed Kamui about the issue, told them I use the burnisher, and they claimed that the heat of burnishing is damaging the tips... which is total bull, as the heat would only harden and seal the leather making it, if anything, stronger. They just didn't want to replace them. But it is possible that the pressure put on the tip by the burnisher (it is tapered) is weakening the lamination... though no one else has a problem with it.

I might try another Kamui and use only sandpaper for maintenance, but more than likely, Triangle is probably the way to go for me.

 

[ShootingArts]

splitting down the side

I have seen the layered tips delaminate or have a layer that just crumbles but splitting down the side would have to mean that it is splitting all of the layers one behind the other.

Are you maybe using the chinese radioactive caustic filled knock off chalk? That has caused tips to melt, sometimes as much as half the ferrule also.

OK, there is another small possibility. These tips are made to take a great deal of force from the front, not so much from the side. If you do a search you can probably turn up a video of just how much a tip and ferrule can distort on impact. That seems to be your most likely problem, more side force than the tips can tolerate. I solved all my issues with layered tips, went back to duds.

Hu

 

[tucson9ball]

Yeah I get that, obviously all these tips aren't defective. But my stroke sure as hell isn't defective.


I'm a strong guy, lift weights, and break at 27+ mph. Anyone know what Larry Nevel has on his shafts? I have a similar playing style. If my stroke is breaking these tips, then his stroke would have broken them in half the time.

I've also cracked 2 shafts, broken probably 6 ferrules, and I've cracked a couple Aramith cue balls when I used to break with a phenolic tip.

I guess I just have to back off on power, though I feel like I'm already soft stroking full table draw shots on the 9'.

I should just stick with the triangles. They last me a year and the good ones don't flatten out like the Kamuis anyway. I just wish they had that solid, lively feel of layered tips!

I highlighted in red the main problem I can see. Many players have a hard break, but that's not with their playing cue. If you are hitting the balls this hard on some straight in shots, your shooting way too hard. I can;t think of any shot that requires hitting more than 18 to 19 MPH.

If you are breaking shafts and ferrules, there is something wrong with your stroke. You may very well be a good shot, but there is no reason to be breaking your equipment.

Hmmm, maybe try one of those pads between the ferrule and tip. It may offer a buffer between the tip/ferrule and the shaft. I'm sure it will soften the feel of the hit a bit also.

 

[spindoctor9]

I have seen the layered tips delaminate or have a layer that just crumbles but splitting down the side would have to mean that it is splitting all of the layers one behind the other.

Are you maybe using the chinese radioactive caustic filled knock off chalk? That has caused tips to melt, sometimes as much as half the ferrule also.

OK, there is another small possibility. These tips are made to take a great deal of force from the front, not so much from the side. If you do a search you can probably turn up a video of just how much a tip and ferrule can distort on impact. That seems to be your most likely problem, more side force than the tips can tolerate. I solved all my issues with layered tips, went back to duds.

Hu

Wow tip melting chalk lol? I use Masters. That burnisher pushes against the sides of the tip, it must weaken it just enough for us bigger guys to do damage. That has to be the problem... I will not use it on my next Kamui and if it happens again, I'll switch back to soaked and pressed triangles.

 

[rhncue]

I always keep my cues in the house and I don't use a marker on the sides. I do poke the tip a little before I play but so does everyone I play with... Maybe my shaper is weakening the edge. I will shape with sand paper only next time and see what happens. I emailed Kamui about the issue, told them I use the burnisher, and they claimed that the heat of burnishing is damaging the tips... which is total bull, as the heat would only harden and seal the leather making it, if anything, stronger. They just didn't want to replace them. But it is possible that the pressure put on the tip by the burnisher (it is tapered) is weakening the lamination... though no one else has a problem with it.

I might try another Kamui and use only sandpaper for maintenance, but more than likely, Triangle is probably the way to go for me.

Those burnishers, and all others are junk and have never done anything good to a tip. When the tip is installed and after trimming, the tip is then burnished by the installer. This is to harden the freshly trimmed sides. There is no reason to ever burnish a second time. If the tip has mushroomed later after installation the shaft needs to be returned to the mechanic so that this mushroomed material can be removed. By re-burnishing the tip to force the leather back in place all you are doing is working the leather and breaking it down.

Dick

 

[spindoctor9]

I highlighted in red the main problem I can see. Many players have a hard break, but that's not with their playing cue. If you are hitting the balls this hard on some straight in shots, your shooting way too hard. I can;t think of any shot that requires hitting more than 18 to 19 MPH.

If you are breaking shafts and ferrules, there is something wrong with your stroke. You may very well be a good shot, but there is no reason to be breaking your equipment.

Hmmm, maybe try one of those pads between the ferrule and tip. It may offer a buffer between the tip/ferrule and the shaft. I'm sure it will soften the feel of the hit a bit also.

I was referring to the break there... I've never damaged a shaft or ferrule on my playing cue. I use a lot of spin, so I never really have to use much force outside of the break except for the occasional big draw stroke. Also, I do use a pad on the ferrule.

I benchpress 315... that's the problem lol!

 

[spindoctor9]

Those burnishers, and all others are junk and have never done anything good to a tip. When the tip is installed and after trimming, the tip is then burnished by the installer. This is to harden the freshly trimmed sides. There is no reason to ever burnish a second time. If the tip has mushroomed later after installation the shaft needs to be returned to the mechanic so that this mushroomed material can be removed. By re-burnishing the tip to force the leather back in place all you are doing is working the leather and breaking it down.

Dick

I think you're 100% right.... I'm a nazi when it comes to tip shape... I try to keep them looking perfect and new (why, i don't know) and because that burnisher has no ill affects on single layer tips, I guess I assumed it would be ok on all tips. I just threw it in the garbage lol.

Thanks guys for the replies, I appreciate the interest.

 

[Snapshot9]

Tips

Everyone is always looking for the magic tip? ... lol I have been using Hercules medium hard layered tips for the last 10 years, and have not had one single problem with them. I shape a new tip some with sandpaper, and then just use a Tippik Shadow on it, might touch up some with sandpaper down the road. My tips last me over 3 years easily.

Some people like to 'grind' on their tips with some of these tools, and end up doing more damage than good. A tip does not really need much maintenance if proper care is taken.

 

[stljohnny]

Layered tips Do.Not.Like any tip tool other than a straight file. And when you shape them, pull down vertically from the center out to the edge. If you file horizontally, it creates enough heat and torque to dislodge the glues between the layers. So, no cue cube, no ultimate tip tool, no shaping on a lathe, etc.

Regardless of the [layered] tip being used, that kamui gator grip tool has been outstanding. It's the least destructive and most uniform "scuffing" of the tools I've used.

 

[ShootingArts]

hardening the leather isn't necessarilly a good thing

Wow tip melting chalk lol? I use Masters. That burnisher pushes against the sides of the tip, it must weaken it just enough for us bigger guys to do damage. That has to be the problem... I will not use it on my next Kamui and if it happens again, I'll switch back to soaked and pressed triangles.

I have never used a burnisher although I do burnish all my tips when they are on the lathe. Hardening the leather could indeed be part of the issue. When it is too hard to flex it has to tear. Picking the tip is also hard on them. There are other tools for the job too now but I have been rolling dents into my tips with a brad tool for many years. No cutting, just pressure straight into the tip as I roll the tool around. The picks make holes in the leather. You can split rock just by hammering dirt into a hole. That is about the same thing people are doing when they make the deep holes with picks and then chalk, pounding chalk into the holes over and over.

I still have some layered tips on a few shafts and some duds. Either one lasts me for years if they are good to begin with. I don't like the inconsistency of layered tips. Other people love layered tips for their consistency. Go figure!

Hu

 

[HueblerHustler7]

Yeah I get that, obviously all these tips aren't defective. But my stroke sure as hell isn't defective.


I'm a strong guy, lift weights, and break at 27+ mph. Anyone know what Larry Nevel has on his shafts? I have a similar playing style. If my stroke is breaking these tips, then his stroke would have broken them in half the time.

I've also cracked 2 shafts, broken probably 6 ferrules, and I've cracked a couple Aramith cue balls when I used to break with a phenolic tip.

I guess I just have to back off on power, though I feel like I'm already soft stroking full table draw shots on the 9'.

I should just stick with the triangles. They last me a year and the good ones don't flatten out like the Kamuis anyway. I just wish they had that solid, lively feel of layered tips!

I feel bad for your cue not your wallet....

 

[spindoctor9]

I feel bad for your cue not your wallet....

Ha ha my buddy said the SAME EXACT phrase when I cracked a 314 shaft breaking! I did, however, win the break speed contest at 31.4 mph

My mezz shaft feels much stronger and I keep my break under 80% now.... except when playing 10 ball :angry:

 

[spindoctor9]

Layered tips Do.Not.Like any tip tool other than a straight file. And when you shape them, pull down vertically from the center out to the edge. If you file horizontally, it creates enough heat and torque to dislodge the glues between the layers. So, no cue cube, no ultimate tip tool, no shaping on a lathe, etc.

Regardless of the [layered] tip being used, that kamui gator grip tool has been outstanding. It's the least destructive and most uniform "scuffing" of the tools I've used.

Thank you... like I said I'm new to layered tips so this is great info for me.

 

[spindoctor9]

I have never used a burnisher although I do burnish all my tips when they are on the lathe. Hardening the leather could indeed be part of the issue. When it is too hard to flex it has to tear. Picking the tip is also hard on them. There are other tools for the job too now but I have been rolling dents into my tips with a brad tool for many years. No cutting, just pressure straight into the tip as I roll the tool around. The picks make holes in the leather. You can split rock just by hammering dirt into a hole. That is about the same thing people are doing when they make the deep holes with picks and then chalk, pounding chalk into the holes over and over.

I still have some layered tips on a few shafts and some duds. Either one lasts me for years if they are good to begin with. I don't like the inconsistency of layered tips. Other people love layered tips for their consistency. Go figure!

Hu

This makes perfect sense thanks for your input.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

One way to break down glue is to heat it. I think that burnisher is ruining the tips, either by heat or some other action. Remember the tips are not solid leather, there is glue between each layer.

I have Kamui blacks on all of my cues, I break and jump with them. Never had a single problem with the tips falling apart.

I don't use a tip pick, I use a brad scuffer, and roll it around the tip just to create pockets for the chaulk. If I need to burnish the sides of the tip I use the back of some sandpaper.

I always keep my cues in the house and I don't use a marker on the sides. I do poke the tip a little before I play but so does everyone I play with... Maybe my shaper is weakening the edge. I will shape with sand paper only next time and see what happens. I emailed Kamui about the issue, told them I use the burnisher, and they claimed that the heat of burnishing is damaging the tips... which is total bull, as the heat would only harden and seal the leather making it, if anything, stronger. They just didn't want to replace them. But it is possible that the pressure put on the tip by the burnisher (it is tapered) is weakening the lamination... though no one else has a problem with it.

I might try another Kamui and use only sandpaper for maintenance, but more than likely, Triangle is probably the way to go for me.