I'm scared to death and....

sjm said:
As always, Jeff, you make some great points in your post, and I agree with much of what you wrote.

Still, it is your statement "drugs, and anything else an individual wants to own, is the individual's business and none others" that is a bit disturbing to me. Certainly, there is ample evidence for the fact that one's ownership of drugs bears on more than just the life of the owner.

Do you object to regulation of the market for plutonium, bombs, explosives and guns? In the movie "Back to the Future," Christopher Llloyd (rationalizing theft of plutonium from some Arabs) notes, amusingly but seriously, to Michael J. Fox that "maybe plutonium is something you can buy in any corner drug store in 1985, but here in 1955 it is pretty tough to come by." Let's hope that day doesn't arrive in our lifetime.

A society with free access to all products, services and commodities, would, in my view, be a very flawed one.
Click to expand...

sjm, thanks for responding in a thoughtful manner, as always...

There is zero evidence that merely owning a drug harms another. If you have any evidence of drug ownership harming another, I'd like to see it. The same goes for ownership of any thing(sic).

Yes, I object to the "regulation" (not sure what you mean by that, btw.) of anything in the marketplace, be it drugs, guns, bombs, explosives, or even plutonium, for the same reason.

[Edit] Plutonium?! am I crazy..."letting" people own plutonium? Think about this: Would someone, who would nuke/bomb/explode/shoot/drug innocent people, really obey a law that forbid owning whatever it takes to do his evil? Would he say, "Oh, I can't kill someone, cuz I have to follow the gun laws." Ridiculous. Ownership laws only prevent law-abiding people from protecting themselves against those who could care less about laws, whether the things are guns, bombs, explosives, or even (especially?) nukes.

Society never has "free" access to anything, btw. "Free" is a term misused, again like "legalize", by the lawmakers to sell unconstitutional, immoral takeovers of liberty, in the guise of getting/giving something for nothing, as if that is actually possible in this universe.

Jeff Livingston
 
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chefjeff said:
sjm, thanks for responding in a thoughtful manner, as always...

There is zero evidence that merely owning a drug harms another. If you have any evidence of drug ownership harming another, I'd like to see it. The same goes for ownership of any thing(sic).

Yes, I object to the "regulation" (not sure what you mean by that, btw.) of anything in the marketplace, be it drugs, guns, bombs, explosives, or even plutonium, for the same reason.

Society never has "free" access to anything, btw. "Free" is a term misused, again like "legalize", by the lawmakers to sell unconstitutional, immoral takeovers of liberty, in the guise of getting/giving something for nothing, as if that is actually possible in this universe.

Jeff Livingston
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No easy topic here, Jeff.

I use the term "free" as is relates to the term "free economy," in which supply will, as a rule, meet demand, and in which channels of distribution are unimpeded, regarldess of what products, services, and commodities are desired by consumers.

Do you object to laws requiring prescriptions to obtain certain drugs? To me, giving unimpeded access to all drugs would be the equivalent of giving a small child a blow torch to play with. Giving them the blow torch, in and of itself, does not harm anybody, but common sense tells you it's not a very good idea, and a court, quite properly, would assign some of the responsibility to you, if it resulted in something tragic.

When common sense says that "free" distributon of certain goods, services or commodities is inherently dangerous and unnecessarily jeopardizes the well-being of members of society, most societies have seen it fit to use the law to protect their well-being, and that's something I deeply believe in.

Just one man's view, of course.
 
A Couple Points of Clarification....

1) If heroin were legal I wouldn't run out and start doing it because I can.....Why because I know it's not the smart thing to do.....What all of you folks on the law and order side of the drug war is that when something is "illegal" or forbidden people are naturally enticed to try it
Lets take all the money we spend on the drug war and divert it to education and treatment programs. Legalize what is my God given right (Are you listening Prochoicers???) tax it regulate it like alcohol, cigarettes, cough medicine whatever and use the revenue for those who need help.....The current policy doesn't work

2)Prohibition led to the rise and organization of the mob....if there was never prohibition organized crime would have been deprived of the money and power that the ILLEGAL alcohol trade produced......Oh and the supposed good guys made a good buck too.....Ever heard of Joe Kennedy???

3) The primary reason most drugs were made illegal was to oppress whichever minority culturally used it....Marijuana was made illegal to repress Mexican Migrant Workers in the south west ....and later in other parts of the country because it was associated with Jazz and we all know who invented Jazz.....Cocaine was made illegal (while everyone was drinking it Coca Cola) because of a fear that it made black men "rape" white women....Do a little research theres more to it than "drugs are bad mmmkay"

4)When I start seeing TV commercials about how drugs finance terrorism or some peasant family in Columbia gets wiped out so a kid in the suburbs can smoke a joint....It doesn't have the desired effect....If opium were legal terror groups wouldn't be able to make the amount of money as when it's illegal (the diamond trade feeds terrorism too). If drug were legal no thug would wipe out a peasant family for their coca leaf, marijuana or opium. After all we don't hear about people getting killed over tomatoes....

5)My life is a gift from God and belongs to me soul and all. As long as the killing of innocent life is tollerated in this country don't talk to me about my caffeine, alcohol, chocolate, pot, coke, smack, or Big Mac use. I pay my taxes I carry my health insurance and I am responsible for my own actions....I think it's called being an adult..

Incidently I do like the occasional big mac but the smack and some of the other stuff said was to make a point in the spirit of a good debate.....

But seriously why should someones life be ruined for taking a pill or a shot or a toke or a sniff....If I don't endanger your life why force me not to endanger mine......that stuff feels too good..... Better make it illegal ....Ooops you got pregnant just go to the corner and "take care of it" no problemo.....Am I the only one that sees hypocracy here????

McCue Banger McCue
 
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kokopuffs said:
I'm a former rocket scientist and chiropractor who tried teaching science at the high school level for a year-and-a-half. Forget that sh&t. Parents are expecting me, the teacher, to instill discipline into these kids. No way. Now I'm a corrections officer.
Click to expand...

Just wondering if any of your former students have become your clients in your new line of work yet.
Steve
 
DelaWho??? said:
1) If heroin were legal I wouldn't run out and start doing it because I can.....Why because I know it's not the smart thing to do.....What all of you folks on the law and order side of the drug war is that when something is "illegal" or forbidden people are naturally enticed to try it
Lets take all the money we spend on the drug war and divert it to education and treatment programs. Legalize what is my God given right (Are you listening Prochoicers???) tax it regulate it like alcohol, cigarettes, cough medicine whatever and use the revenue for those who need help.....The current policy doesn't work

2)Prohibition led to the rise and organization of the mob....if there was never prohibition organized crime would have been deprived of the money and power that the ILLEGAL alcohol trade produced......Oh and the supposed good guys made a good buck too.....Ever heard of Joe Kennedy???

3) The primary reason most drugs were made illegal was to oppress whichever minority culturally used it....Marijuana was made illegal to repress Mexican Migrant Workers in the south west ....and later in other parts of the country because it was associated with Jazz and we all know who invented Jazz.....Cocaine was made illegal (while everyone was drinking it Coca Cola) because of a fear that it made black men "rape" white women....Do a little research theres more to it than "drugs are bad mmmkay"

4)When I start seeing TV commercials about how drugs finance terrorism or some peasant family in Columbia gets wiped out so a kid in the suburbs can smoke a joint....It doesn't have the desired effect....If opium were legal terror groups wouldn't be able to make the amount of money as when it's illegal (the diamond trade feeds terrorism too). If drug were legal no thug would wipe out a peasant family for their coca leaf, marijuana or opium. After all we don't hear about people getting killed over tomatoes....

5)My life is a gift from God and belongs to me soul and all. As long as the killing of innocent life is tollerated in this country don't talk to me about my caffeine, alcohol, chocolate, pot, coke, smack, or Big Mac use. I pay my taxes I carry my health insurance and I am responsible for my own actions....I think it's called being an adult..

Incidently I do like the occasional big mac but the smack and some of the other stuff said was to make a point in the spirit of a good debate.....

But seriously why should someones life be ruined for taking a pill or a shot or a toke or a sniff....If I don't endanger your life why force me not to endanger mine......that stuff feels too good..... Better make it illegal ....Ooops you got pregnant just go to the corner and "take care of it" no problemo.....Am I the only one that sees hypocracy here????

McCue Banger McCue
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so the drunk driver that kills an innocent family,his actions aren't hurting anyone?
he should know when he has had enough.no the bar tender should have shut him off,but thats not right because he should be allowed to drink as much as he wants,after all it's his body.i'm sure these responsible drug users won't be behind the wheel while under the influence.

they never had a chance though.they're drawn to it.they know how dangerous and addictive it is but hey it's illegal,they can't resist.either that or they're idiots.

on one hand you speak about people being responsible for their own actions and thinking for themselves but when something is illegal they can't help themselves and are just prone to try it.and not try it once but again and again.

so when prohibition was lifted the number of ppl who were drinking must have dropped dramarically?right?
 
sjm said:
No easy topic here, Jeff.

I use the term "free" as is relates to the term "free economy," in which supply will, as a rule, meet demand, and in which channels of distribution are unimpeded, regarldess of what products, services, and commodities are desired by consumers.

Do you object to laws requiring prescriptions to obtain certain drugs? To me, giving unimpeded access to all drugs would be the equivalent of giving a small child a blow torch to play with. Giving them the blow torch, in and of itself, does not harm anybody, but common sense tells you it's not a very good idea, and a court, quite properly, would assign some of the responsibility to you, if it resulted in something tragic.

When common sense says that "free" distributon of certain goods, services or commodities is inherently dangerous and unnecessarily jeopardizes the well-being of members of society, most societies have seen it fit to use the law to protect their well-being, and that's something I deeply believe in.

Just one man's view, of course.
Click to expand...
sjm,
Your metaphor of giving children blowtorches hits the exact point of difference between libertarians like Jeff and myself and the rest.

Protect us from ourselves or from the destruction we may cause to others, as we should do with children, and forever the people will be children...irresponsible.

Liberty carries with it a great burden of responsibility, but such burdens are the source of personal growth and faith in self-reliance / responsibility.

Heroin was a legal over-the-counter drug, even accessible to minors for many years. Of course there were occassional addicts, but there numbers were much less than the numbers with drinking problems.

The nanny state, and the nihilistic education system, along with the drug war is much to blame for the growing street violence I believe. Treat people as though they can't be trusted and soon enough they will confirm it.
 
havoc said:
so the drunk driver that kills an innocent family,his actions aren't hurting anyone?
he should know when he has had enough.no the bar tender should have shut him off,but thats not right because he should be allowed to drink as much as he wants,after all it's his body.i'm sure these responsible drug users won't be behind the wheel while under the influence.

they never had a chance though.they're drawn to it.they know how dangerous and addictive it is but hey it's illegal,they can't resist.either that or they're idiots.

on one hand you speak about people being responsible for their own actions and thinking for themselves but when something is illegal they can't help themselves and are just prone to try it.and not try it once but again and again.

so when prohibition was lifted the number of ppl who were drinking must have dropped dramarically?right?
Click to expand...
When prohibition was lifted the amount of violence and murders dropped amazingly.

Tell me how many drunks are responsible for deaths on private property? hmmmm Business owners have a strong vested interest to remove potentially dangerous people from their premises. The roads are public premises, monitored by government, who oversee thousands of deaths every month. If a private company had 1/1000th as bad a record they'd be screamed out of business. And yet people think the government can fix these kind of problems using their one and only tool of choice = force. Well they might fix the problems, if they packed up and quit.:D
 
Our president should order the marines to go to the drug suplying countries in South America and wipe them of the world map.Then our kids will be free of drugs.If all the bar tenders are imprisoned for life we will be free of drunk driving accidents.
 
sliprock said:
Vegas was so much nicer when the Gangsters ran things...Seriously.
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As a rule punks, degenerate muggers,etc., tend to respect only what they fear.....
 
chefjeff said:
sjm,

Society never has "free" access to anything, btw. "Free" is a term misused, again like "legalize", by the lawmakers to sell unconstitutional, immoral takeovers of liberty, in the guise of getting/giving something for nothing, as if that is actually possible in this universe.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

I do not have freedom to choose the color of the paint on my own house and that speaks volumes.
 
ribdoner said:
As a rule punks, degenerate muggers,etc., tend to respect only what they fear.....
Click to expand...
EXACTLY...................................................
 
I think in Las Vegas you are not allowed to carry concealed. And strict gun laws have been put in place. Meaning the criminals who don't care anyways have the guns while the law abiding citizens are getting killed.

As for the president. He shouldn't have 1 thing to do with cracking down on local problems. The Presidents primary job is NATIONAL Defense. And making sure Congress passes laws that abide by the constitution. But his first priority is commander and cheif. Not welfare hander outer. Or Healthcare reformer.

I also do not like the "Sex Offender" database. I find it in violation of the 5th ammendment in the Bill of Rights. A Sex offender should spend time in jail. But once out of jail his punishment should end. With the sex offender database that is in my opinion Double Jeopardy. Also unusual punishment because you are now tarnished in your neighborhood where you might have actually reformed.

My political philosphy goes basically to my Avator. "Don't Tread on Me". A rattlesnake if left alone will not bother you. If you approach a rattlesnake they'll warn you. If you continue they'll fight you to the death and strike you quickly and deadly. Benjamin Franklin thought this would be the best national symbol compared to the Bald Eagle. He also wrote a poem about why he felt it should be our symbol. It's quite interesting if you read it.

I have no problem with people doing drugs. Just as long as it doesn't directly affect me. If you want to get drunk on gasoline and pull donuts on your Private Property then feel free. But as soon as one of your tires hits public road it's off to jail.

Here in Georgia they actually passed the "Stand your Ground" law. Which basically means if someone is in your house or car uninvited you can assume they aren't there to do your laundry and you can use whatever force including deadly to stop them. Regardless if they have a weapon on them or not.

As soon as criminals start getting knocked off by vigilanty citizens word will spread and violence will drop.

Criminals have fealings too. And fear is one of them.

Oh yeah. About the "Civil war". If you read my "Signature" you'll get the jist of my feelings.
 
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I believe that drugs and prostitution should be legalized. I also think that whatever two or more consenting adults want to do should be fine as long as they use some discretion - others that don't want to see it shouldn't be forced to.

I don't agree with CJ and Colin that government has to be bad and that the ultimate salvation to human kind is corporate rule. Corporations operate off of a profit margin and greed is their downfall. With corporate rule, there will be a few rich people and a whole lot of poor people - the workers.

Government rule can be effective and just. I doubt there is any system that would be able to deliver utopia whether it be corporate rule, government rule or a combination of the two. As long as people are involved, there will be problems.
 
smittie1984 said:
I think in Las Vegas you are not allowed to carry concealed. And strict gun laws have been put in place. Meaning the criminals who don't care anyways have the guns while the law abiding citizens are getting killed.

As for the president. He shouldn't have 1 thing to do with cracking down on local problems. The Presidents primary job is NATIONAL Defense. And making sure Congress passes laws that abide by the constitution. But his first priority is commander and cheif. Not welfare hander outer. Or Healthcare reformer.

I also do not like the "Sex Offender" database. I find it in violation of the 5th ammendment in the Bill of Rights. A Sex offender should spend time in jail. But once out of jail his punishment should end. With the sex offender database that is in my opinion Double Jeopardy. Also unusual punishment because you are now tarnished in your neighborhood where you might have actually reformed.

My political philosphy goes basically to my Avator. "Don't Tread on Me". A rattlesnake if left alone will not bother you. If you approach a rattlesnake they'll warn you. If you continue they'll fight you to the death and strike you quickly and deadly. Benjamin Franklin thought this would be the best national symbol compared to the Bald Eagle. He also wrote a poem about why he felt it should be our symbol. It's quite interesting if you read it.

I have no problem with people doing drugs. Just as long as it doesn't directly affect me. If you want to get drunk on gasoline and pull donuts on your Private Property then feel free. But as soon as one of your tires hits public road it's off to jail.

Here in Georgia they actually passed the "Stand your Ground" law. Which basically means if someone is in your house or car uninvited you can assume they aren't there to do your laundry and you can use whatever force including deadly to stop them. Regardless if they have a weapon on them or not.

As soon as criminals start getting knocked off by vigilanty citizens word will spread and violence will drop.

Criminals have fealings too. And fear is one of them.

Oh yeah. About the "Civil war". If you read my "Signature" you'll get the jist of my feelings.
Click to expand...

Cost of confinement in conjuction with dismal rehabilitation rates makes dealing with repeat sex offenders difficult.

Instead of infringing on their civil liberties we should make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to offend.....esp. in the case of child molesters.
 
How about castration for repeat child molesters!!! If they area was so bad were I lived, I would seriously think about U-HAUL.

no-sho
 
about 1975 one neighborhood in town was plagued by some punk running up behind old women and knocking them down with a Dick Butkus hit then steeling their purse.these were elderly on canes ect.it didn't matter to him.well this guy i knew who was a policeman and an extremly good street fighter dressed one day like a lil ole crippled lady.hunched over limping along he went down the side walk when all of a sudden he heard the pitter patter of a punk coming up fast behind him .in a split second he turned at the perfect moment and proceeded to give this punk who had severly beat over 10 elderly people the worst beating this punk could ever have nightmares about..on top of that the punk was sentenced to prison for about 10 years......what a wonderful and true story this is....seems many towns and areas could use this tactic..
 
sliprock said:
Vegas was so much nicer when the Gangsters ran things...Seriously.
Click to expand...

Some assume this is true because the mafia is inherently more violent, more feared; but I suspect it is because they are a more efficient provider of defense, security and justice, than the government.

The Godfather series provides a good depiction of this.

Rothbard writes eloquently on this subject, contrastic The Godfather with Goodfellas here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard114.html
 
There Are Laws On The Books We ALL Break.

First off I'm a personal responsibility type guy.....When ones behavior Directly impacts another..... well you should be held accountable and take responsibility for our actions...You go ahead and tell me it's illegal to talk on my cell phone while driving....when cell phone use accounts for only 3% of distracted driving accidents (that's an NTSA stat not mine). Tuning the Radio, Eating or Drinking Beverages, Talking to Passengers all rate higher on the accident cause scale.....yet none of these are illegal (Except the passenger one in states with graduated liscensing)....The cell phone is a red herring.....just like the drug war....

Second Government stays in bussiness by making laws. We elect these people to go to the seat of government and to do Something....so they pass laws and create new classes of criminals.....Hey tobacco smokers are you paying attention???? They've been forced outside...with the rest of us law breakers...Oh and you fast food fatties get ready to step on a scale before you are "permitted" to get that Big Mac.....After all you and the smokers are driving up my health care costs....

Which incidently is another lie because most of them end up dying before they are a burden......The real burden on health care comes from illegal immigrants who have no insurance and clog up the emergency rooms every time they get a runny nose......And before you reactionaries start playing the race card or slinging mud....I work in the service end of the health care industry and in case you didn't know 70% of the hospitals in the USA are Losing money....This means the Federal, State and Local gov'ts have to kick in to keep them running....so you and I pay this....

The guy who stated he couldn't paint his house the color he wants makes my point.... There are two kinds of people in this world....Those that thinks they should be able to tell others how not to live their lives and those of us who believe that life is a gift that only my Creator has the right to chose my destiny (Insert Your Religious Dogma Here). I like to call use Libertarians.....not the political party but a way of life......You know before the gov't became the nanny state (thanks FDR) people were self reliant and families took care of their own. If that failed there was the Church and Charities.....
The Government has distorted the idea of charity to be a tax loophole.....I give plenty to charity cars....(more than 3) clothes, food, and money....but many people feel that the gov't is responsible so I'll only give the amount the I can take off of my taxes.......Government is Not the Solution but in many respects is part of the Problem

Live Free or Die.....
McCue Banger McCue
 
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