I'm scared to death and....

Crime exists for a number of different reasons but two stand at the front of the pack.

The first one to address is abnormal psychology. In the case of sexual predators and other violent criminals, the main motive behind there crimes often boils down to a hunger for power or some other depravity that is engrained in the human psyche. Why? That will vary from case to case. Be it neglect as a child, molestation as a child, etc. However, something has set these individuals off onto a path of depravity that often leads to violence of some kind.

The second reasons that many crimes are committed (and by far the most prominant) is money. It makes the world go 'round. It always has and (sadly) it always will. While many of us here on the forums and sitting at desks next to you, living right beside you, etc., prefer to keep our noses clean rather than risk a jail term or worse, there are millions who see the quick payday in something like drug dealing or muggins (to name a few) as an acceptible way to make a quick dollar. It is this greed and the insatiable drive to do whatever it takes to get that dollar that forces people to turn to a life of crime.

Do you honestly think that legalizing drugs is going to make the crime stop? Not by a long shot. Remember, for every drug dealing entity, drugs are only one of the crimes they commit. For every mobster oout there, racketeering and shakedowns are just the tip of the iceberg. These are some of the things that criminals do to earn money. Murder, assualt, intimidation, etc. These are some of the things that criminals do to ensure that they can keep earning money. Legalizing the drug trade will do little more than make drugs more readily available. The cartels that own the fields producing cocaine and the like will still be competing violently and will often turn to other forms of crime to make sure that they are earning more than the next guy.

And lets not forget about crime that happens under the influence of these now legal drugs. People who have little or no control over their actions and pull a trigger in a drug induced rage are just forcing the problem of crime to continue.

Face it, in a city like Vegas, an oasis of bustling activity in the middle of the desert, money is king and as long as that is the case, even harsher punishment for offenders isn't going to make crime disappear.
 
pharaoh68 said:
Crime exists for a number of different reasons but two stand at the front of the pack.

The first one to address is abnormal psychology. In the case of sexual predators and other violent criminals, the main motive behind there crimes often boils down to a hunger for power or some other depravity that is engrained in the human psyche. Why? That will vary from case to case. Be it neglect as a child, molestation as a child, etc. However, something has set these individuals off onto a path of depravity that often leads to violence of some kind.

The second reasons that many crimes are committed (and by far the most prominant) is money. It makes the world go 'round. It always has and (sadly) it always will. While many of us here on the forums and sitting at desks next to you, living right beside you, etc., prefer to keep our noses clean rather than risk a jail term or worse, there are millions who see the quick payday in something like drug dealing or muggins (to name a few) as an acceptible way to make a quick dollar. It is this greed and the insatiable drive to do whatever it takes to get that dollar that forces people to turn to a life of crime.

Do you honestly think that legalizing drugs is going to make the crime stop? Not by a long shot. Remember, for every drug dealing entity, drugs are only one of the crimes they commit. For every mobster oout there, racketeering and shakedowns are just the tip of the iceberg. These are some of the things that criminals do to earn money. Murder, assualt, intimidation, etc. These are some of the things that criminals do to ensure that they can keep earning money. Legalizing the drug trade will do little more than make drugs more readily available. The cartels that own the fields producing cocaine and the like will still be competing violently and will often turn to other forms of crime to make sure that they are earning more than the next guy.

And lets not forget about crime that happens under the influence of these now legal drugs. People who have little or no control over their actions and pull a trigger in a drug induced rage are just forcing the problem of crime to continue.

Face it, in a city like Vegas, an oasis of bustling activity in the middle of the desert, money is king and as long as that is the case, even harsher punishment for offenders isn't going to make crime disappear.

Did you read the entire thread?...your points have already been addressed and refuted.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Did you read the entire thread?...your points have already been addressed and refuted.

Jeff Livingston

Yeah I did. Look back 8 or 9 posts. Bottom of last page. That was where the idea of "legalizing and registering drugs" first popped up and that is the post I am responding to. Show me where, between then and now, that someone has argued that point.
 
My Thoughts on Car / Boat Registration

If I buy a car or a truck or any type of vehicle for that matter and I only operate it within the confines of my own property, then I shouldn't have to register it or inform anyone that I own it ......

The roadways and to a lesser extent the waterways are publicly held which means they belong to all of us and are regulated by the gov't....Our tax dollars pay for the upkeep and maintenace of the roadway...which is in the interest of Public safety....after all it would really suck driving over a bridge only to have it collapse under you. Unfortunately right now the gov't is the only entity capable of managing this infrastructure.

We all have a vested interest in having safe vehicles on the road... In most if not all states a safety inspection is required for registration....so to my way of thinking regestration is a way of ensuring that a vehicle is road worthy before it can be used in public space. Now I know that the same car that was deemed safe one day might up and fail the next causing a crash........Here is where personal responsibility comes into play....You've demonstrated that your car is safe for the road....it is your responsibility to maintain it in a safe condition.

Truthfully on the boat side of the issue it is as you said a method of tax and control....because my boat never had to be safety inspected in the couple 3 states I've lived...

The liscense plate thing your wife suggested is just a byproduct of the registration process....I don't think that was original intent.....

McCue Banger McCue
 
I have to disagree

pharaoh68 said:
Face it, in a city like Vegas, an oasis of bustling activity in the middle of the desert, money is king and as long as that is the case, even harsher punishment for offenders isn't going to make crime disappear.


I think much harsher penalties, say third felony conviction and you are dead, and more importantly sure and certain penalties if you are convicted would work wonders to curb crime. Criminals are encouraged in this country because they can expect the justice system to tie itself up in knots to protect them. Of course resort style prisons aren't on my list of things I favor either. The standard prison sentence should be hard labor and hard labor shouldn't be riding around in an air conditioned tractor!

An old bumper sticker pretty much covers it, "Real Time for Real Crime".

Hu
 
You Must Spread It Around Before Adding to CHefJeff Reputation........

Pharoh.....I guess the bottom line in this debate is about whether or not someone should have the right to tell you how to live your life. How can I tell you how to use something I didn't give you? Your life belongs to you and your Creator (whatever you believe Him to be) endowed you with Free Will. That means you have the ability to do with your life what you will......Will there be consequences to your actions? Of course......but they are yours to bear....The only way the masses are controlled is through force of arms or the consent of the governed...
I voice my consent when I vote.....if I lose then I'm supposed to suck it up and try again next time with a more pursuasive arguement..

I always have my freewill and I do routinely violate laws I don't happen to agree with.....Does this make me a bad person? If you catch me I'll take responsibility for my action but I will fight for what I believe......We all violate some law or regulation on a daily basis....and the gov't keeps making more of them to ensure we do.....New Classes of Crimials are being created daily.......
This is how gov't stays in business....

How am I more of a criminal for smoking a weed that grows naturally...than the woman who kills her unborn baby for the sake of convenience??
 
An old bumper sticker pretty much covers it, "Real Time for Real Crime".

Hu[/QUOTE]

What is your definition of "Real Crime"
 
DelaWho??? said:
You Must Spread It Around Before Adding to CHefJeff Reputation........

Pharoh.....I guess the bottom line in this debate is about whether or not someone should have the right to tell you how to live your life. How can I tell you how to use something I didn't give you? Your life belongs to you and your Creator (whatever you believe Him to be) endowed you with Free Will. That means you have the ability to do with your life what you will......Will there be consequences to your actions? Of course......but they are yours to bear....The only way the masses are controlled is through force of arms or the consent of the governed...
I voice my consent when I vote.....if I lose then I'm supposed to suck it up and try again next time with a more pursuasive arguement..

I always have my freewill and I do routinely violate laws I don't happen to agree with.....Does this make me a bad person? If you catch me I'll take responsibility for my action but I will fight for what I believe......We all violate some law or regulation on a daily basis....and the gov't keeps making more of them to ensure we do.....New Classes of Crimials are being created daily.......
This is how gov't stays in business....

How am I more of a criminal for smoking a weed that grows naturally...than the woman who kills her unborn baby for the sake of convenience??

Your argument is only marginally valid. Yes, your life if yours to do with as you please but if what you are saying is that as a result, you should be allowed to use drugs, then I have to counter by saying this. You are assuming that all users will be so calm and cavalier about usage as you. You paint the picture of an individual using drugs and then laying back, kicking up his feet, and just plain relaxing. Many times, that is not the case.

What about the man who is high on heroin and drives his car across a sidewalk mowing several innocent people over in the process? What about the cocaine or steroid abuser whose rage induced by the narcotic forces him to turn a minor dispute into a violent murder? These individuals were simply doing what they wanted with their lives but, the inability for the human to control every one of its faculties and impulses while under the influence of a mind-altering substance makes this issue a lot bigger than freedom of choice.

Furthermore, the other aspect that you overlook in your argument is that of the drug trade. The dealers and the pushers do not simply sit back and wait for people to come to them. Perhaps at some point they enjoy this kind of success but this only comes after seeking a customer base and pushing their wares on the likes of anyone and everyone with a spare dollar. While four out of five may turn them down, that fifth is now a new user. Legalizing drugs, or merely overlooking the problem that they represent is a mistake because by allowing it to persist, the problem, like any other, will grow.
 
Let's talk about the drug trade......Your earlier assertion that there would still be cartels in control of the "fields" is a little off base.
You don't see Jack Daniels going after Jim Beam for the Tenn Whiskey trade, and the reason is because liquor is no longer "Prohibitted". It is prohibition and the illegal trade in any commodity that breeds violence.
Cartels are nothing more than groups of people who share an economic interest in the trade of certain commodities..like OPEC or your local Farmers Collectives....Last I heard Iowa wasn't invading surrounding states to sieze control of the corn trade....That sounds rediculous because it is.....I can bearly control what goes on in my own backyard, let alone some other country.

Legalization won't decrease demand and idiots are idiots whether sober or doped....What it will do is take away the outragous amounts of money that any blackmarket will produce.....The possibility of 200-2000% return on your dollar will make you more willing to do things thats are shall we say unsavory than getting 8% will. Greed corrupts people....

Why don't we just sanitize everything so no one can ever be hurt or insulted.....We'll all walk around in bubble suits and be regulated by thought police.......Is this the kind of future you'd like to live in? Remember Cain wasn't hopped up on drugs or steroids when he Murdered Abel....simple Jealousy was his motivation. Before you start wanting to control how others live their lives try making sure your own house is in order....
 
pharaoh68 said:
Do you honestly think that legalizing drugs is going to make the crime stop? Not by a long shot. Remember, for every drug dealing entity, drugs are only one of the crimes they commit. For every mobster oout there, racketeering and shakedowns are just the tip of the iceberg. These are some of the things that criminals do to earn money. Murder, assualt, intimidation, etc. These are some of the things that criminals do to ensure that they can keep earning money. Legalizing the drug trade will do little more than make drugs more readily available. The cartels that own the fields producing cocaine and the like will still be competing violently and will often turn to other forms of crime to make sure that they are earning more than the next guy.

And lets not forget about crime that happens under the influence of these now legal drugs. People who have little or no control over their actions and pull a trigger in a drug induced rage are just forcing the problem of crime to continue.

Face it, in a city like Vegas, an oasis of bustling activity in the middle of the desert, money is king and as long as that is the case, even harsher punishment for offenders isn't going to make crime disappear.

Sorry. I can't believe that drugs like cokaine would be marked up 1000x if they were legal. Currently coke users pay about $100 for what they could obtain at the source for about $.10. It is hard to imagine supply and demand not bringing the price down if prohibition ended.

Second, illegal drugs are generally less debilitating than alcohol, and for the most part do not contribute to rage or anger.

Third, many drug dealers are otherwise law abiding. The crime is caused by the law.
 
ShootingArts said:
I think much harsher penalties, say third felony conviction and you are dead, and more importantly sure and certain penalties if you are convicted would work wonders to curb crime. Criminals are encouraged in this country because they can expect the justice system to tie itself up in knots to protect them. Of course resort style prisons aren't on my list of things I favor either. The standard prison sentence should be hard labor and hard labor shouldn't be riding around in an air conditioned tractor!

An old bumper sticker pretty much covers it, "Real Time for Real Crime".

Hu

Works for the fascist countries. Why not here, right?
 
Chris said:
Sorry. I can't believe that drugs like cokaine would be marked up 1000x if they were legal. Currently coke users pay about $100 for what they could obtain at the source for about $.10. It is hard to imagine supply and demand not bringing the price down if prohibition ended.

Second, illegal drugs are generally less debilitating than alcohol, and for the most part do not contribute to rage or anger.

Third, many drug dealers are otherwise law abiding. The crime is caused by the law.

I think the problem that some here are having in this discusssion is confusing societal liberty with personal morality. Libertarianism is a method for living with others, not a moral code of right and wrong personal behavior. Here's an article that explains it qutie well, that was in my email after I signed off of AZ this morning:

Demeaning libertarianism in academe
Free Market News Network
by Tibor R. Machan

"Roberto's entering the cocaine trade may very well be wrong.
Libertarianism as such, as a political theory, does not address that
issue, just as it does not address whether Roman Catholicism or
Judaism or Islam is a faith to embrace, but it does address whether
the rights of adult men and women to enter that trade ought to be
respected and protected. Since, of course, there is plenty of
agreement on other fronts about the merits of the basic rights to life
and liberty, attacking them would be bad strategy. Instead it is
smarter to make it appear that libertarianism not only defends these
rights but also endorses the ethics of entering cocaine trade, as if
it not only defended the right to freedom of speech but also whatever
those who exercise this right actually say. The business ethics
industry is, of course, full of such smear efforts." (03/20/06)

http://www.fmnn.com/Analysis/117/4185/2006-03-20.asp?nid=4185&wid=117


Enjoy,

Jeff Livingston
 
Glad we agree Chris!

Chris said:
Works for the fascist countries. Why not here, right?

Exactly! Why not here? We would vastly reduce crime if the people who deliberately choose to commit crimes knew that getting caught would result in sure and significant punishment.

Why would anyone favor crime without punishment?

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Exactly! Why not here? We would vastly reduce crime if the people who deliberately choose to commit crimes knew that getting caught would result in sure and significant punishment.

Why would anyone favor crime without punishment?

Hu

I do not favor someone else determining on my behalf which victimless actions should be considered crimes, and which ones should be allowed. That is a slippery slope that can only lead to fascism. I am not terribly comfortable with the idea of living in a fascist nation.

For example, with a three strikes and you're dead law, we would be putting people to death for smoking joints, speeding, jaywalking, prostitution, gambling on pool games, etc. Where would it end?

I don't favor crime without punishment. Nor do I support laws that create crime where there was neither crime nor victim before.

"They that would give up essential liberties in order to obtain some temporary safety deserve neither liberty, nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin (1755)
 
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DelaWho??? said:
Let's talk about the drug trade......Your earlier assertion that there would still be cartels in control of the "fields" is a little off base.
You don't see Jack Daniels going after Jim Beam for the Tenn Whiskey trade, and the reason is because liquor is no longer "Prohibitted". It is prohibition and the illegal trade in any commodity that breeds violence.
Cartels are nothing more than groups of people who share an economic interest in the trade of certain commodities..like OPEC or your local Farmers Collectives....Last I heard Iowa wasn't invading surrounding states to sieze control of the corn trade....That sounds rediculous because it is.....I can bearly control what goes on in my own backyard, let alone some other country.

Allow me to ask you this... in a country half a globe away where cocaine is mainly harvested, the cartels pretty much do whatever the hell they want because they have the money, thus the manpower, and the firepower. Murder and corruption is rampant. And all the while, in what is a billion dollar a day industry for the heads of these cartels, they are still competing with one another to make even more money!!!

Now, you think that by legalizing it, they will stop killing and committing other crimes to gain the upper hand?

Of course farmers aren't killing one another to compete over corn sales. Because murder is not reasily overlooked in most areas of the country. In Colombia, where the cartel practically controls the government, murder is more or less a business tactic! That is the difference.

You may be right. Maybe legalization might turn the Cartels into corporations, but lets face it! Its not happening overnight. It'll take decades of murder and numerous violent acts to bring civility to the drug trade.
 
Chris said:
Sorry. I can't believe that drugs like cokaine would be marked up 1000x if they were legal. Currently coke users pay about $100 for what they could obtain at the source for about $.10. It is hard to imagine supply and demand not bringing the price down if prohibition ended.

Second, illegal drugs are generally less debilitating than alcohol, and for the most part do not contribute to rage or anger.

Third, many drug dealers are otherwise law abiding. The crime is caused by the law.

I never made any reference to the fact that drug prices would go up. I don't know where that is coming from. My contention is that by legalizing drugs, especially those grown outside of the US where little is done to regulate or enforce any laws regarding them, you are going to create more bloodshed. As the market grows due to less restriction and more availability, so will competition amongst cartels and the like. And these cartels, operating outside of the US, will not have to answer to the US for actions committed outside of our country.

In other words, suppose their were NO laws governing Big Tobacco, whatsoever. They have been killing us for years with smoke and lies about the damage it can do. If all laws were abolished in their case, don't you think that sooner or later, one major player in the game may try to rub out another for the sake of gaining ground and putting even more money in their pocket? No in the case of the cartels, they don't really abide by many laws to begin with so, who is to say that murder and corruption will stop just because their product is legalized?
 
chefjeff said:
Register them? With whom? Why? What good would "registration" do? What harm would it stop? How would it stop any harm, especially how would registration prohibit drugged driving? Isn't your idea just a milder form of the drug war, but still control over a suppossedly free people?

Btw, driving is NOT a privilege anymore than farting is. It is something that directly involves other people, so the same rule applies: don't intiate force against someone else. The "privilege" argument is made by whom? Those who control you and your movements, that's who. So....?

Why can't people move about freely, without paying for permission from a bureaucrat?

Jeff Livingston

Jeff,

I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to burn their brains out on drugs or alcohol or whatever they want. I do have a problem with someone who is drunk or high on drugs driving because they might kill someone. If we legalize drugs so that people can purchase them as much as they want, I think they should have to register with the government (I know you're not going to like this) so that when/if they apply for a driver's license, there will be some way to monitor their driving PRIVELEDGES. I think that having a driver's license is a priveledge.

I came home from Viet Nam a disabled veteran. I had a serious eye problem and I voluntarily went to the DMV and told them about my condition and they advised me that I could volutarily revoke my license or they would revoke it. I did voluntarily revoke my license and didn't drive for about 2 years until my eyes got better. I don't think driving a car is a right.

The government built the roads and issues the licenses. If you don't pass the test, you don't get your license. Anyone can drive without a license but then they'd be breaking the law. I think this is a good law because without it, there would be anarchy on the roads and that would not be good.

I've been to many countries that do have chaotic traffic and it isn't good. I would much rather drive in this country than some of the countries I visited in the far east.
 
pharaoh68 said:
That is by far one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Registering drugs? Was that a joke or were you serious? And if you were, please explain your standpoint beyond the "it would prohibit driving" defense because that just doesn't make much sense to me.

If drugs were legal, i.e., you could purchase any drugs you want as long as you are 21 years old and have the money to pay for them, I do think that once you purchase drugs that are capable of impairing your judgment or altering your state of consciousness, that you should be placed in a registry that you bought them. I don't think that needs to happen if you're buying aspirin or anything like that.

You can't just legalize all drugs and not do something to mitigate the effects that will have on society. There are going to be a lot of deadheads walking not driving around.
 
pharaoh68 said:
Allow me to ask you this... in a country half a globe away where cocaine is mainly harvested, the cartels pretty much do whatever the hell they want because they have the money, thus the manpower, and the firepower. Murder and corruption is rampant. And all the while, in what is a billion dollar a day industry for the heads of these cartels, they are still competing with one another to make even more money!!!

Now, you think that by legalizing it, they will stop killing and committing other crimes to gain the upper hand?

Of course farmers aren't killing one another to compete over corn sales. Because murder is not reasily overlooked in most areas of the country. In Colombia, where the cartel practically controls the government, murder is more or less a business tactic! That is the difference.

You may be right. Maybe legalization might turn the Cartels into corporations, but lets face it! Its not happening overnight. It'll take decades of murder and numerous violent acts to bring civility to the drug trade.

The fact that farmers aren't killing each other makes my point......In other "less Civilized" societies people are routinely oppressed....

Are you worried about the slave laborer in china or the kid in the sweat shop making the shoes you wear or the mp3 player you're listening to? How about the diamond on your fiance's hand funding genocide in africa....You dictate working conditions around the world by purchasing.......just the same way as the american consumer and other consumers to a greater or lesser extent fuel the drug trade......just like the need for cheap labor drives the snake head to traffic in human life....

You're going to have to explain how making something a crime hasn't stopped demand nor consumption...Hasn't Prohibition of the 30's taught us that?

The only way to stop the drug trade is to curb demand and in my opinion if the gov't took all the funds spent on the drug war and diverted it to treatment and education we'd be a whole lot better off as a society. Isn't better to teach someone why something is bad rather than trying to prohibit it? Tell me why I should or shouldn't do something and then let me make my own decision and fact my own consequences.

In my opinion there isn't any difference between caffiene or cocaine HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) and alcohol they all alter our perception to one degree or another. It is in the nature of life to alter ones perception. Wildlife of all sorts do it, whether its birds eating fermented berries, cats and catnip, Elephants and monkeys eating fermented fruit and competing for it......I bet when you were little you spun around in circles to get dizzy.

Current drug laws were all put in place to control a segment of the population that society through prejudice deems some sort of a threat.....Opium first made illegal out in California to oppress the Chinese Minority....Marijuana to oppress the Latino subculture.....Cocaine first made illegal in Georgia because it was alleged that it caused Black men to rape white women.....

I don't think these are principles that formed this country. George Washington Produced 80,000 gallons of rye whiskey a year at Mount Vernon....
Thomas Jefferson Advocated the growing of hemp by all colonists including the India variety (as it was known then) for it's medicinal properties.

The Declaration of Independence is written on Hemp paper...although we don't know whether it was a byproduct of the drug or industrial (as it's now known)variety.

Many of the Patent Medicines of the 1800's were cannabis based......and most did what they were advertized to do...

If we don't know our history we are doomed to repeat it....After all the War on Poverty was a resounding success.....:rolleyes:

McCue Banger McCue
 
chefjeff said:
....... A comparison: Shoes are worn by everyone, aren't they? Yet drugs are not used by everyone. Since everyone wants shoes, why don't we have shoot-outs in the streets protecting the shoe businesses, like what happens in the drug businesses? I mean, everyone wants shoes, so shouldn't the govt. control that market, too? Couldn't the terrorists take over the shoe business and then if you bought shoes, you'd be helping the terrorists?

What if your friend's daughter got arrested for possessing the wrong shoes, as she did for possessing the wrong drug? Would that make shoes the problem or would the problem lie elsewhere?

Jeff Livingston
nevermind . . . .
 
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