In praise of thinner tips

Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Silver Member
I changed to 12 3/4 or smaller tip diameters a couple of years ago. And I haven't looked back. I recently got a cue that the cuemaker forgot to go down to 12 3/4. It plays great, but until I get it thinned down, I can't use it. I've honed in on the thinner tips and that's the way it's going to be.

Most people know that in snooker, they use the thinner tips. What a lot of player don't realize is that in carom billiards (3C, straight rail, etc.) the billiard cues also are typically thinner than pool cues. That is, the thickness of shaft diameter has nothing to do with the size of the ball, as some people might naturallly think. So, I think the tip thickness has everything to do with the person, and almost nothing to do with the balls.

What am I saying? Other than "let's have another drink," which sounds like a great idea... If you've thought that sticking with a 13mm tip diameter was good and proper just because of some crazy tradition, don't think that way. I have no idea at what point 13mm started becoming standard in pool, but snooker and billiard cues tell me that there's no reason for the 13mm tip to have ever been standard. Somebody duped us years ago.

I can't tell you the number of people I"ve seen immediately see positive results going to a thinner tip such that it's worth it to try it out.

HTH,

Fred
 
Tip Diameter

Cornerman, interesting thread and glad to see that your game has improved for the better by making the change to a smaller tip diameter. Speaking to you as a snooker player myself, there is a trend amongst some of the top pro's in snooker, now, to go for larger tip diameters. The simple reasoning behind this is that it improves consistency and gives you a larger margin for error.

The narrower the tip, the more english you will put on the cue ball. If you are a fraction off centre when you strike the cue ball, you get unwanted throw and postition etc. Unless you are one of these players that hits the cue ball 100% perfect, every time you strike (of which there is no one out there who does) your consistency, in theory, should be reduced.

The one thing I will say for a narrower tip though, is it's a hell of a lot of fun for making the game more entertaining with some crazy draw and english shots to be made. :D

To summarize the point of my response: In theory, the bigger the tip the more consistent the outcome, the smaller the tip, the less consistent the outcome but a lot more fun.
 
I agree with both statements. I've got shafts that are from 13mm all the way down to my McDermott I/3 which is 11.75 mm and it can do some crazy stuff. The difficulty I had with the very small diameter shafts was on long shots and with my consistency. Recently I purchased a new Lambros with two 13mm shafts and wanted a 12.75 mm shaft for it. Mike was against turning down a 13 mm due to the possibility of it warping so he made me a new shaft at 12.75. I agree with you Fred but just for fun I shoot with some even smaller ones for the hell of it.
Dan
 
Cornerman said:
What am I saying? Other than "let's have another drink," which sounds like a great idea... If you've thought that sticking with a 13mm tip diameter was good and proper just because of some crazy tradition, don't think that way. I have no idea at what point 13mm started becoming standard in pool, but snooker and billiard cues tell me that there's no reason for the 13mm tip to have ever been standard. Somebody duped us years ago.

I can't tell you the number of people I"ve seen immediately see positive results going to a thinner tip such that it's worth it to try it out.

HTH,

Fred
Click to expand...

I'm all for another drink :D

Seriously though, I have been using a 13MM for about 5 months and, while it has treated me well, I had Mike make me a 13 and 12.75. I'm really looking forward to playing with the 12.75 because I have a feeling it is going to help with my english shots.

Take care,
Koop
 
I'm with you, sir....

My diameter of choice is 12.75mm.....has been for about two years. I noticed an immediate improvement when I made the switch from the standard 13mm.

That said...I recently acquired a Scruggs cue with 2 shafts....one at 12.5 and the other at 12.6. I love them both equally....and doubt I'll ever use a standard 13mm again. If I buy a cue with one, I'll have 'em turned down (by the maker), or use a same-sized shaft with a smaller diam. tip.

Glad I'm not alone!!!

For the first time in my life, I feel like my smaller tip is just fine!!!! :eek: :eek: :D
 
Cornerman said:
I changed to 12 3/4 or smaller tip diameters a couple of years ago. And I haven't looked back. I recently got a cue that the cuemaker forgot to go down to 12 3/4. It plays great, but until I get it thinned down, I can't use it. I've honed in on the thinner tips and that's the way it's going to be.

Most people know that in snooker, they use the thinner tips. What a lot of player don't realize is that in carom billiards (3C, straight rail, etc.) the billiard cues also are typically thinner than pool cues. That is, the thickness of shaft diameter has nothing to do with the size of the ball, as some people might naturallly think. So, I think the tip thickness has everything to do with the person, and almost nothing to do with the balls.

What am I saying? Other than "let's have another drink," which sounds like a great idea... If you've thought that sticking with a 13mm tip diameter was good and proper just because of some crazy tradition, don't think that way. I have no idea at what point 13mm started becoming standard in pool, but snooker and billiard cues tell me that there's no reason for the 13mm tip to have ever been standard. Somebody duped us years ago.

I can't tell you the number of people I"ve seen immediately see positive results going to a thinner tip such that it's worth it to try it out.

HTH,

Fred
Click to expand...

Fred,
I play snooker and pool and like a 12.25mm for pool. I play with a Predator (sorry) but get down to that by thinning ferule and tapper only the top inch of the shaft (also common in snooker). Do you do it here or thin the whole shaft?

Nick
 
Nick B said:
Fred,
I play snooker and pool and like a 12.25mm for pool. I play with a Predator (sorry) but get down to that by thinning ferule and tapper only the top inch of the shaft (also common in snooker). Do you do it here or thin the whole shaft?

Nick
Click to expand...
To me, the thinner feel is more important in the stroking area. Getting the cue through my hands easier is as important as seeing the clearer tip to ball contact.

With your Predator, 12.25 gets awefully small for their ferrule thickness. I think they told me that they didn't recommend going that thin.

Fred
 
13mm then 12.75 and 12.5 <smile> and back to 13mm

I have been around that block myself. I ended up having 13mm tips and turned down shafts and then reverted back to 13mm tips and had to buy more shafts..lol I feel the players that draw the cue ball, do it equally as well with either like myself. I have noticed a tendency to miscue abit more with the smaller tips on the cues though, especially in critical situations in a pressure match. I have at least 15 cues, everything from PFD, Phillipi, Madden,Frey sneaky,Schon, Predator, Schick sneaky, Cuetec, Mcdermott's Fury RP and so on. I have been playing at least 15 years. I believe side spin is abit easier but draw you can easily miscue quicker with smaller tips.

just my opinion,
Steve
 
Cornerman said:
To me, the thinner feel is more important in the stroking area. Getting the cue through my hands easier is as important as seeing the clearer tip to ball contact.

With your Predator, 12.25 gets awefully small for their ferrule thickness. I think they told me that they didn't recommend going that thin.

Fred
Click to expand...

They void your warranty at below 12.25mm. I'm not a heavy hitter and spin them before power most times. Nevertheless over the last 8 years I have yet to have a ferule problem.

Nick
 
this may not make sense to most, but I find practicing with a snooker cue (9-1/2 mm) helps get me out of a sloppy shooting slump,,,I get really complacent/sloppy with a 13mm tip,,,the snooker cue makes me pay attention more and (at least in my mind) has improved my accuracy,,,,jmho
 
8-ball Rat said:
My diameter of choice is 12.75mm.....has been for about two years. I noticed an immediate improvement when I made the switch from the standard 13mm.

That said...I recently acquired a Scruggs cue with 2 shafts....one at 12.5 and the other at 12.6. I love them both equally....and doubt I'll ever use a standard 13mm again. If I buy a cue with one, I'll have 'em turned down (by the maker), or use a same-sized shaft with a smaller diam. tip.

Glad I'm not alone!!!

For the first time in my life, I feel like my smaller tip is just fine!!!! :eek: :eek: :D
Click to expand...

Like you, my game improved quite a lot after buying a Scruggs cue with 12.5mm tip. Used to play with a regular 13.0 mm tip. Man that Scruggs hits sweet !! :cool:
 
tip diameter

Most of us, myself included, aim with the center of our stick but hit the cueball well off of the center of the tip much of the time. OK, I know that most of you are wondering how long it took that moron to figure this out but it is one reason that tip size and shape have a lot of impact on how we play.

With a smaller tip we are hitting closer to where we are aiming. When using extreme english that makes a lot of difference. I recently started taking a 13mm shaft down remembering I once favored 12.5 or 12.75 tips. I was curious to find my best shaft diameter. I discovered that 12.25 is too small for my eyes and current skill level! Finishing a new personal shaft now. I think I will stop at 12.75. It does play quite differently from a thirteen.

Hu
 
Cornerman said:
I changed to 12 3/4 or smaller tip diameters a couple of years ago. And I haven't looked back. I recently got a cue that the cuemaker forgot to go down to 12 3/4. It plays great, but until I get it thinned down, I can't use it. I've honed in on the thinner tips and that's the way it's going to be.

Most people know that in snooker, they use the thinner tips. What a lot of player don't realize is that in carom billiards (3C, straight rail, etc.) the billiard cues also are typically thinner than pool cues. That is, the thickness of shaft diameter has nothing to do with the size of the ball, as some people might naturallly think. So, I think the tip thickness has everything to do with the person, and almost nothing to do with the balls.

What am I saying? Other than "let's have another drink," which sounds like a great idea... If you've thought that sticking with a 13mm tip diameter was good and proper just because of some crazy tradition, don't think that way. I have no idea at what point 13mm started becoming standard in pool, but snooker and billiard cues tell me that there's no reason for the 13mm tip to have ever been standard. Somebody duped us years ago.

I can't tell you the number of people I"ve seen immediately see positive results going to a thinner tip such that it's worth it to try it out.

HTH,

Fred
Click to expand...

It is easier to cut an object ball using a small diameter cue tip versus a larger diameter cue tip. I am sure that there are some things that a larger diameter tip can do better but just can't be sure what they are. I know that there are some rather good players who love a 13MM tip and play top speed.
JoeyA
 
Black-Balled said:
What? YOur opening was in jest?!

FTR- I am in too...:D
Click to expand...

Nothing in jest about more drinks...;)

All you had to do was watch me at the Joss event. Never without my Sam Light and on some occassions, doubled up.
 
I think I get my best play out of this combination:

Ed Young shaft, with his taper, that after repeated "cleanings" with a Scotch brite pad now has a tip size right at 12 mm, milk-dud Elkmaster tip.

This combination is great. By the way, the shaft does not have a pro-taper, but Ed Young's taper, someone called it a Kershenbrock taper. The wood is very dense, and this shaft is quite squirty, and powerful, to boot. The hit is rock solid, and with the milk-dud tip will draw the heck out of the cue ball. Is it hard to control? I suppose, but so what, it really performs.

Flex
 
Fantastic thread. Rep points inbound for several of you folks! Thanks for the information!
 
For me when I switched from a 13mm tip to a 12.75, I found I could get more actionn out of the cue ball. After a couple years, and several cleanings the shaft got down to 12.55mm and played just as if not better. I later got a new shaft at 12.75 and I couldn't get quite the same action but I was more consistent in getting less action. I got a couple new shafts not too long ago at full 13mm and wouldn't you know, I lost a bit more action, but I was far more consistent with getting shape. This just illustrates what everyone seems to have said already.

I'm think you should have different shafts for different games/tables. Maybe a small radius for something like 9ball where you need to really move the ball and a larger one for 1hole or straight pool where there's not quite as much movement (as 9ball) but shape is tighter. If golfers have different clubs for different shots, why shouldn't a pool player have different shafts for different games? I know that if you play with one shaft you'll be more consistent, but golfers swing with more clubs and they're pretty consistent... at using different clubs too.

In sum I don't necessarily think one small shaft is better than haveing 1 thick shaft or vice versa. I think different situations call for different tools.
 
I've played US pool with a 10mm tip and it works all right. Seen some snooker players be very competitive with similar size tips.

Granted a 10mm tip, with accordingly narrow shaft will vibrate a bit on some draw shots or power english shots, but I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about playing with 11.5 to 12.0mm.

But still, it ain't no magic potion. AFAIC any cue is just a matter of learning the necessary adjustments. Also, consider that it's very rare that we require maximum english, except in the case of draw. When using side english, usually a tip is the most we ever need to use. The corresponsing amount of follow makes a much larger difference, though perhaps a smaller tip can help in this regard.

Colin
 
Cornerman said:
I changed to 12 3/4 or smaller tip diameters a couple of years ago. And I haven't looked back. I recently got a cue that the cuemaker forgot to go down to 12 3/4. It plays great, but until I get it thinned down, I can't use it. I've honed in on the thinner tips and that's the way it's going to be.

Most people know that in snooker, they use the thinner tips. What a lot of player don't realize is that in carom billiards (3C, straight rail, etc.) the billiard cues also are typically thinner than pool cues. That is, the thickness of shaft diameter has nothing to do with the size of the ball, as some people might naturallly think. So, I think the tip thickness has everything to do with the person, and almost nothing to do with the balls.

What am I saying? Other than "let's have another drink," which sounds like a great idea... If you've thought that sticking with a 13mm tip diameter was good and proper just because of some crazy tradition, don't think that way. I have no idea at what point 13mm started becoming standard in pool, but snooker and billiard cues tell me that there's no reason for the 13mm tip to have ever been standard. Somebody duped us years ago.

I can't tell you the number of people I"ve seen immediately see positive results going to a thinner tip such that it's worth it to try it out.

HTH,

Fred
Click to expand...

I have a theory as to why the various games - pool, carom, snooker - use different kinds of cues. Imitation and inertia. When starting out people imitate champions of the game or at least the better players around them. They stroke like they stroke, use cues like they do, etc. It only makes sense. But once they've learned to use a certain type of cue, other types of cues feel funny to them. If they even try them they soon give up because it doesn't "feel right".

For example, is there any good reason why carom players use a 12mm tip and a constant taper while pool players use a 13mm with a pro taper? If one type of cue works best in one game, why wouldn't it work best in the other? I think Ray Schuler felt this way - at least that's how he talked when he made my cue in 1982. As you might expect, he favored the carom approach - narrower tips and stronger tapers. He made lots of different tapers which he advertised as "tailored" to your game, but that was marketing, I think. In his heart he thought that a European or constant taper was best for pool as well as carom. He thought it provided better consistency and less squirt. He also preferred the small little ferrules you see on carom cues. The smaller end mass of the narrower tip and light ferrule was the reason for less squirt than standard pool cues had at the time - this was before robot experiments and Predator drilling holes.

It's interesting that the Predator Z shaft - their lowest squirt shaft - is pretty close to a "carom" type cue. Of course, they use their other techniques to lower squirt even more.

Anyway, to sum up, why is a pool cue different than a carom cue? I don't think there is any good reason - mainly just tradition. With one exception, length. Carom cues are shorter because they don't stretch for a shot. They'll shoot it a different way instead. Pool players can't avoid stretching.
 
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