Industry Supporting Industry

[JAM]

jimmyg, you have made a statement of particular interest to me.

Most of the members on AZ, do not know me. I am not a former road player,champion,industry professional or owner.

I am a pool enthusiast,who fortunately, had the opportunity to be a part of the BCA from 1993-1996. I served as the Assistant League and Program Director under John Lewis during that time. A man who knows as much about pool as anyone in the world...

...I thank the readers for their indulgence. See some of you in Tunica.

Great post and quite enlightening. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Just out of curiosity, do you know who gave the UPA the right to become a so-called "men's professional pool organization"? Is the BCA the entity that does this?

Thanks again for the great post! :smile:

 

[JAM]

We have 2 private groups on Facebook here in Wichita, the main one is
Wichita Pool Players, and the other one is Pool Players (regional for players in towns out and around Wichita)...

...Everyone is excited again about Pool at Stix, and Joe does a good business. He has 20 barboxes, 3 big tables, and a Snooker table. He keeps his barboxes at .50 per game. It is all working pretty well.

There you have it. Social media networking at its finest. That's quite interesting and very cool!

 

[cajunfats]

Yes.

With the BCA consisting of industry members, why on earth can't they pool a few crumbs together and host a BCA Open? That's the least they can do for professional pool.

Instead, they sponsor each other for name recognition, and pro players are left organization-less in the eyes of the WPA.

JAM, I agree with you. One major event with 100% Trade Association Member Participation at just $1,000. and go to mainstream corporations to sell Title Sponsorhips,the prize fund would be well over a Million and you could pay EVERY Player a nice stipend for playing. The Title Sponsor shouldn't have a current connection to pool whatsoever. New Blood,New Perspective. Then you go in a New Direction.

 

[cajunfats]

Yes!

There you have it. Social media networking at its finest. That's quite interesting and very cool!

Even an old fart like me understands that facebook and smartphones are an absolute must. Imagine the flash mob tweeting phenomenon to alert pool players to information?

 

[ShootingArts]

woefully ignorant about social media

I have seen AzBilliards Discussion Forum grow leaps and bounds the past decade. Do you think it has peaked with the advent of social media Web sites?

Many former AzBilliards' members are moving their colloquy about pool to Facebook instead of posting here, as an example. Some do not even post here anymore. Facebook, of course, is self-moderating in a way, which is interesting when you think about it. You can pick and choose who you want to read and who you want reading you.

Can Facebook advance pool in America, do you think?

I have several issues with facebook and other social media so I have never joined any of the sites yet. Guess I will have to eventually but I have got no face and have never twitted a tweet!

For whatever reason AZB has declined in value significantly since I joined in 2005 according to the sites that rate such things. AZB was valued at $35,000 when I checked soon after joining now the highest value I can find placed on it is $22,000. I haven't tracked AZB's value regularly during that time period so I have no idea if there has been a steady decline or a sudden fall in value at one time or another or even if the value might be crashing now. Of the handful of sites I checked AZB's value at most rated it around $20,000 with one only rating it at $14,000. I have no idea how accurate any of the ratings are but if the original rating and later ratings are comparable it would seem AZB has lost about a third of it's value.

Are facebook and other social media sites harming AZB? Are they good for pool in the long run? At the risk of damaging my reputation as a sexual intellectual I don't have a clue!

Hu

 

[Mr. Bond]

Not facebook per say, but the internet is a worldwide network of practically instant communication, which was obviously not even possible just a few short years ago. As such, it has the capacity to help ANY organization when utilized efficiently. And right now, facebook is pretty dam efficient.

To answer your previous question, J.M. is John Moses Brunswick, founder.

Who is the modern day Mosconi? or Hoppe?
Meaning, why is there not an industry golden boy, or team, when just a little over a generation ago, you had Hoppe and then Mosconi sporting a Brunswick jacket as the face of American billiards? Why did Brunswick seemingly turn their back on their heritage, and their history of quality, and industry leadership?

While one might be able to swallow the concept of sending jobs overseas, why would they not be playing a pinnacle role in professional pool and billiards in America, thus ensuring a healthy market for themselves in the future? Drastically discounting the impact of your own brand name seems to fly in the face of good business sense.

I sincerely doubt that the division head has ever picked up a cue.

Hey I can rant just like everyone else

 

[JAM]

JAM, I agree with you. One major event with 100% Trade Association Member Participation at just $1,000. and go to mainstream corporations to sell Title Sponsorhips,the prize fund would be well over a Million and you could pay EVERY Player a nice stipend for playing. The Title Sponsor shouldn't have a current connection to pool whatsoever. New Blood,New Perspective. Then you go in a New Direction.

I like the way you think, Cajunfats. If your doggone post had a Like Button, well, I'd be hitting it over and over again! :smile:

 

[brophog]

We must be careful with causation with an example like Fowler. Fowler didn't create golf. He didn't create the PGA. He's had, to date, an almost negligible influence. He's able to use golf as a vehicle to drive his branding. In turn, of course golf may one day benefit, but the PGA tour, and specifically the PGA tour with contracts to multiple tv networks is the vehicle on which Rickie Fowler can currently grow Rickie Fowler.

Golf, in particular, is a very interesting dynamic in the post Tiger Woods dominated era. A month ago it was Bubba Watson that was going to be the next star. Before that it was Rory McIlroy. No one can secure their place as the top rated golfer for more than a few weeks. Golf is not unlike the NBA in the post Michael Jordan era. It's attempting to create another dominant icon to replace the legend before it. Michael Jordan became a household name, however, because of the vehicle that was the NBA. He obviously had a profound impact on that league, but he was already walking on the shoulders of giants. The NBA grew in popularity, and arguably so did basketball on a global scale in part due to that legend, but without the vehicle pre-existing no one would have ever known who Michael Jordan, professional basketball player, ever was. Jordan and Tiger grew their respective sports, but only because those sports were already large enough for them to have an impact.

Pool, unlike golf and basketball, is virtually non-existent as a professional sport. It's akin to the dozens of small, now defunct leagues that once called themselves professional basketball leagues. Could anyone name a single professional player in the Continental Basketball Association without the context of the player being a member of a known college or NBA team? Probably not. Despite being a very old league, lasting in excess of 50 years and slightly older than the NBA itself, it just never became relevant outside of that context. The CBA, as a marketable vehicle, never grew the way the NBA did.

We also must be careful with the "power" of social media, as well. For the most part, the marketing through that means only enhances existing marketable industries and personalities. A golf personality may go on Twitter and help expand his image, but the primary reason he's being followed is because he's known as a professional golfer who is on TV on a regular basis. Putting Earl Strickland on twitter isn't going to build a professional pool league, garner TV contracts, or expand the sport beyond the realm of people who already knew enough about him to follow him on twitter in the first place. You may follow someone on twitter because you saw him on TV, but you'll very rarely follow someone on TV because you saw him on twitter. There's simply too much to wade through for that to happen.

Could a Rickie Fowler prove inspirational to today's youth in the future? Absolutely. If he starts winning. If he stays relevant enough in his own sport for them to focus on him as an entity. If the TV cameras are on him every week to see what attire he has on that week, he'd absolutely be able to expand his brand via social media. But if he can't progress to the point that he's winning tournaments and being a relevant golfer, then no one is going to care if his bright yellow shoes match.

Golf and the NBA are two examples of how powerful a marketing agent winning can be. Dominant teams and dominant players are extremely powerful marketing agents to growing a sport. But the sport has to be there for them to act upon it and pool does not exist as a marketable professional sport at this time. No amount of antics or personality will be more than a blip on youtube until that occurs. The days of promoting via a circus act are long gone. It's 12 seconds on youtube, maybe a viral email list and then nobody cares. We could have all of the midgets playing baseball one wanted and it won't do much more than get a couple of laughs. Staying power in a world with this much information inundating everyone is very hard to come by.

 

[cajunfats]

Like

I like the way you think, Cajunfats. If your doggone post had a Like Button, well, I'd be hitting it over and over again! :smile:

JAM, your smiley face emoticon smokes all like buttons!! Thanks.

 

[macguy]

We have 2 private groups on Facebook here in Wichita, the main one is
Wichita Pool Players, and the other one is Pool Players (regional for players in towns out and around Wichita).

At Stix, my home room, we have weekly Challenge matches on Saturday night at 9 for $500 per man, playing 5 sets, race to 7, on a big table (can play Challenges on a barbox too if desired). The owner, Joe, also puts in a $100 for the winner. We have a commentator, with a laptop connected to the Internet giving play by play messages on Facebook during the match.
The matches are also recorded, and put on Youtube later.

We also have what we call 'Matinee' matches for $250 per man, playing 5 sets, race to 5 9 ball on a big table. They are played at 3 on Saturday afternoon.

Challenges are made on Facebook in the group. Tournament announcements, and anything Pool for local players is reflected on Facebook.

We have a statistics page where the schedule for Challenges is listed, plus we are ranking players much like boxing does. We keep records and standings of all the Challenge matches.

Not only that but Stix has 5 weekly tournaments all with a 200% payback.
9 ball and handicapped 8 ball.

Everyone is excited again about Pool at Stix, and Joe does a good business. He has 20 barboxes, 3 big tables, and a Snooker table. He keeps his barboxes at .50 per game. It is all working pretty well.

Can you provide some links?

 

[jimmyg]

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were writing about the IPT.

We've already been down that road. :smile:

Not really JAM, none of the other major sports have a ponzi-like business model whereas the players, through participation and/or "qualifier" fees, support the cost and profitability of the enterprise, it's really not even close. Nowhere is a large scale sports model based on players' supporting the cost of the sport, it is the advertisers, fans, and merchandise franchises that do that. Imagine a baseball business where players pay to "qualify" and play in the events. When a con man is at the helm, you can be sure that the boat is not seaworthy.

J

 

[cajunfats]

The UPA

Great post and quite enlightening. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Just out of curiosity, do you know who gave the UPA the right to become a so-called "men's professional pool organization"? Is the BCA the entity that does this?

Thanks again for the great post! :smile:

The authority really doesn't exist. Any group who forms,may pay a sanctioning fee to acquire legitimacy with one of the "sanctioning bodies". It is this dilemma that curtails progress. The UPA is much like the old MPBA,PBA,and any other of the now extinct organizations that have come and gone. There is no more credence for the UPA than for their predecessors. "I Claim,therefore,I Am!"

 

[LAlouie]

Otherwise, industry will support other industry members, while the pro players remain on the outside looking in, hoping to pick up a few crumbs the industry members throw their way. The industry members get fat and continue to grow, and the pro players become extinct.

Follow the money. I believe, unless proven otherwise, that pool is divided into two entities, home/family sales and pool halls/professional, and that Brunswick makes more money off home sales than professional sales, and that people who imbibe in pool on a casual level (with their 7' family den tables) have ZERO interest in professional pool, and that people who are involved with pool on a "player/professional level" are a self defeating bunch.

How much should Brunswick give back? There's over 100 yrs of history that says pool as WE know it, ie the professional/pool hall game, has been nothing but an albatross to it's own self. Brunswick has moved on from the billiard industry.

 

[cajunfats]

On the Spot!

We've already been down that road. :smile:

Not really JAM, none of the other major sports have a ponzi-like business model whereas the players, through participation and/or "qualifier" fees, support the cost and profitability of the enterprise, it's really not even close. Nowhere is a large scale sports model based on players' supporting the cost of the sport, it is the advertisers, fans, and merchandise franchises that do that. Imagine a baseball business where players pay to "qualify" and play in the events. When a con man is at the helm, you can be sure that the boat is not seaworthy.

J

I agree. I have experience in the Club System in Europe back in the 80's and it wasn't Ortmann,Souquet,and Engert who paid to play for their Clubs. They were "supported" by the Club Owner. Novel idea,ya think???

 

[cajunfats]

Brunswick

Follow the money. I believe, unless proven otherwise, that pool is divided into two entities, home/family sales and pool halls/professional, and that Brunswick makes more money off home sales than professional sales, and that people who imbibe in pool on a casual level (with their 7' family den tables) have ZERO interest in professional pool, and that people who are involved with pool on a "player/professional level" are a self defeating bunch.

How much should Brunswick give back? There's over 100 yrs of history that says pool as WE know it, ie the professional/pool hall game, has been nothing but an albatross to it's own self. Brunswick has moved on from the billiard industry.

Brunswick Bowling!!!!!! the Pro Bowlers Tour-Millions!!!!! Mercury Marine-the Professional Fishing Tour!!!!! need I go on???

 

[JAM]

Brunswick Bowling!!!!!! the Pro Bowlers Tour-Millions!!!!! Mercury Marine-the Professional Fishing Tour!!!!! need I go on???

Now we're talking. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

Wouldn't it be nice to have a Brunswick Open pool tournament?

 

[brophog]

The people currently involved in the pool industry do not have, or are not willing to risk, the massive amount of funds necessary to create the sea change necessary to make that risk viable. I certainly wouldn't, not that I could.
.

One major event with 100% Trade Association Member Participation at just $1,000. and go to mainstream corporations to sell Title Sponsorhips,the prize fund would be well over a Million and you could pay EVERY Player a nice stipend for playing. The Title Sponsor shouldn't have a current connection to pool whatsoever. New Blood,New Perspective. Then you go in a New Direction.

It's a chicken and egg scenario. You're not going to establish and grow without the funds and you're not getting the funds unless you can show a product worth investing in.

If I'm Toyota, do I spend my money on golf or pool? That's pretty easy. The key to working with TV execs or corporate sponsors is to make what you're doing work for them, not the other way around and we mostly think of what they can do for us, and not what we can do for them. That's why pool is, as so eloquently put in the title, an industry supported by the industry.

It's tough, for certain. It's difficult to get someone to invest without seeing something for a return, and that includes organizers, players, sponsors, etcetera.

 

[jimmyg]

I agree. I have experience in the Club System in Europe back in the 80's and it wasn't Ortmann,Souquet,and Engert who paid to play for their Clubs. They were "supported" by the Club Owner. Novel idea,ya think???

Exactly.

Another point that is very easy to miss is the depth of the organizations that support major sports. Between the national and international junior development programs, especially in tennis, that is supported by the tennis industry, and the public and private school systems which provide the same foundation for football, baseball, etc., which are supported by the "public" via taxes, there is a never ending supply of new talent plus the much needed air of respectability all rolled into one.

J.

 

[brophog]

Not facebook per say, but the internet is a worldwide network of practically instant communication, which was obviously not even possible just a few short years ago.

That's the good and the bad. The internet is widely accepted. Facebook somewhat less so. So on and so forth. The issue with the internet, however, has always been how to direct the flow of traffic to a specific place. It's easy to get people on the 'net and onto Facebook.....those are established entities......but how do I get people to "page X" on Facebook on the internet when everyone else is also trying to leverage this.

Often times it's coming from somewhere else. As a good example, let's consider FOX buying the NFL contract in the early 90's. At the time they paid way above market value. But they saw an opportunity to buy one television product to market all of their other television products. They made that investment pay off not by selling ad space during the NFL game, but by selling 'The Simpsons' during that game, which helped promote that show and that helps promote other shows. The ads themselves during the NFL game weren't worth what the network paid at the time for the rights, however, the ability to leverage that space to grow an entire network certainly was.

The internet still works much like that. As a cog in the chain, a facebook page can be leveraged if, like getting people to watch the Simpsons, you can get them to that specific page in the first place. As much as the internet is a big giant place of marketing opportunities it is also a big giant place of opportunities that aren't the one thing you, the marketer, are trying to get the patron to pay attention towards. While black and white television may have been dwarfed in scope to the internet, and therefore had far fewer of these marketing opportunities, you may have only had 3 channels on it, the primary information source in the household. As such, if you could beat out the other two options in your time slot you had a relatively captive audience to work with. The internet has a massive scale that 3 channel black and white tv never had, but it also lacks the captivity of the audience due to that scale.

 

[Dartman]

Wouldn't it be nice to have a Brunswick Open pool tournament?

The concept works for darters. Memorial weekend coming up there will be between 1600-1800 dart players hitting the Chicago Hyatt-O'Hare for the Arachnid Bullshooter Finals XXVII. 200+ dart boards and plenty of events over 4 days for men and women both pro's and open. There are 12 regional tournaments leading up to the finals and all are run by the manufacturer (Arachnid) who provides the dartboards and arranges for staff to run the tournaments. There's plenty of buzz in the dart community and most players are pretty satisfied with the state of the sport.

I'd guess Brunswick sees greater profitability in their other divisions but a company like Diamond might light up billiards by following the Arachnid example - and create greater demand for their product. JMO