Instructors that won't tell you what speed they are

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
I think it does have some bearing, but I know some instructors that teach at an exceptionally high level but their playing ability is not at the professional level. Can they teach? It depends who it is - the ones I know of that post on this forum are some of the most respected instructors in the world.

I think that requiring the instructor to be pro level or above is a little outrageous - I've heard some say that their instructor needs to be a pro - I find that kind of silly - its the same as asking the mechanic at the muffler shop if he's ever raced in the Daytona 500. As long as he can fix my car, I could care less about his driving record. Some of the best playing advice I received was from Hal Mix. Go to your local pool hall and see how many people had ever heard of him.

My speed? I've been playing for over 35 years - professionally (sporadically) since I was 16 years old. My high run in straight pool is 212 balls. I have been teaching players since the late 1980's, and I have coached players from league players to professional players. I still play in tournaments and I've yet to hear anybody say that I was an easy match. I don't know how that relates over to "speed", but some days I can run 100's and some days I struggle just like everybody else. Most of what I teach is what I was taught by Cisero Murphy, Hal Mix, Gene Nagy, Jack Colavita, Buddy Hall, Steve Mizerak, and Cowboy Jimmy Moore... not exactly your typical APA league night know-it-alls... all of them were good teachers and great players, however I learned a lot from people nobody had ever heard of either.

I do have a lot of knowledge to pass along - professional playing experience - and good insight into the psychology of competition - in fact the mental game is my area of expertise. If you need your stroke fixed - go see Scott or Randy - if you want your attitude fixed, or if you want to combat choking, I'm the guy.

Not every instructor is for every student. I don't care what level they play - they can have all the knowledge in the universe - if they cannot communicate that information effectively to where you can learn it and apply it - his services will be a waste of your time and money.

My advice - find someone that can teach the game well. Find someone that is just as excited to teach as you are to learn - I know guys that just go through the motions - I have students like that too... find someone you get along with and ask a lot of questions before giving them your game - they need to know how to identify weak spots in your game and apply remedies that will improve your skill.

Relax, and remember that a student needs to be hungry for knowledge - and they must respect the teacher and the knowledge that the teacher is passing along. If you do not have respect for that, maybe you're not ready to learn. I don't say that to ruffle your feathers, I say that because sometimes we have to hit rock bottom before we get our ego and pride out of the way so that our minds will open up and be ready for learning. Deep down we are all like that on some level.
 

av84fun

Banned
Jen_Cen said:
I agree with what everyone here has said. You do not need to be a pro to be a good instructor.

But if you are asked directly, shouldn't you disclose? An instructor is selling a product, himself. Isn't the level he plays at one of the most basic stats you can use to help decide if you're going to give him $900?

Would you give $900 to a D player who read The Science of Pocket Billiards and can tell you all about throw and squirt, but couldn't run 3 balls?

If the person is a BCA Certified instructor then it doesn't make any difference what his speed is. By obtaining the certification he has had to prove that he understands the dynamics of the game and can teach it to others effectively.

There are some world champion players that can hardly teach a thing because they don't communicate well and/or what they do is SO imbedded in their minds and muscles that they just do what they do and can't really explain how.

Some TOP players who are not BCA instructors CAN teach very effectively but they get most of their students by word of mouth. If you have no personal references on the person and he is not certified then I would take a pass because you would just be buying blind which is never a very good idea.

Regards,
Jim

(I have no affiliation with any instructor or school)
 

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
Well, since we are all entitled to our own opinion, I think I'll be the first to go against the grain here and say that given the choice of two good teachers, I believe you would be better off with the one who is at least a B player rather than a D or C. Certainly if you ask the question of them, they shouldn't skate the answer.

The more advanced the student's play is, IMO the more important it becomes to seek advanced level shooters who teach.

I have seen excellent teachers, (my definition for this purpose is superb communicative skills, a patient personality, advanced knowledge of the physics and geometry of the game, but yet in practical play are no more than C+ players.) who, while able to convey concepts very well to beginners and players approaching intermediate level play, would in no way be my first choice for recommendation to advanced level players. And if it's your goal to find and stay with a particular instructor as you approach advanced level, I think you'd do better finding one who plays at an advanced level as well so long as both models are available.

It was mentioned that instructor most likely teach more than they play. As an example, I'm no more than a weekend warrior, and certainly no great player, but I enjoy 14.1, and while I'm not a real threat to hit my high run in a game of 14.1, even while only playing weekends, I can count on a few high 30's or low 40's in any given game I play, so I see no reason an instructor who teaches way more than he plays should have a problem getting through a rack and into the next one. That would make them a solid "B" player.

Much less practical ability than that, and I believe there are certainly aspects of the game they could not convey, and dollar for dollar the student would be better off with a teacher who is also a higher level player.

Analogy = It's tough to teach a person how to build an entire house, if you've only changed a door knob yourself. Sure you could show them the layout on paper and how its supposed to go, but you wouldn't be able to make them aware of the glitches and what to expect along the way, unless you've experienced them yourself. JMHO
 

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ghostball said:
Are you looking for an instructor,my rating is 3 times WORLD CHAMPION and i have been teaching for 30yrs if interested e-mail me GHOSTBALL.
RAY MARTIN

I took a Ghostball lesson back in the late 80's. Good info, he did not teach me how to play, He taught me how to hit cue ball. I got better quickly after getting home. I wished I lived closer he was in Largo, FL I was from Indy. I had relatives close so I stayed cheap and I learned alot. This was during college. I did not have a job during college I just played alot of cheap pool for 1,2 and 5 dollars a game. I made quite few bucks with the knowledge I got from Ray in two days. Expensive lesson (500/2days) at the time long return on the knowledge still use alot of the physics and concepts to this day. My stroke was a baby stroke when I went and 6 months later it was much stronger. Thanks Mr. Ray Martin, it is an honor to say you helped me with my game.

I got a real job after college and started making real money so I quit for years then I wanted to play again.

I took another pro teacher lesson from Scott Lee, he is not a world champion player. This was another good lesson, he came to my house. He had positive comments on alot of my fundamentals. He pointed out a few key problems with my setup and alot he told me I already knew, I just did not know I was doing things wrong, I cannot see myself play. He video taped me most good teachers do the video. He had methods I could use to train good habits. He had a plan for me and my stroke. He did not teahc me how to play any game better. I was not ready to learn game playing at the time. I needed to work on my internal toolset, setup, speed, control etc.

Get a lesson from a good teacher. Ray, Scott, RandyG or maybe somebody in your neighborhood. Open yourself up and be willing to do the work. After you get some of the basics engrained in your body then you can learn to play the games to a much higher level. If you do not have the fundamentals then you do not have tools.

As for my opinion I think Scott Lee is a World Champion teacher even though he is not the best player in the world. He also an ambassador of the game and carries himself very professionaly.


Let me offer you and the world a tip. Keep your head still and stay down after the shot. That tip right there is a good tip but it is only as good as you are at applying it to your game. A teacher can get you to feel the results of staying down in your stroke/game.
 
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housecue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think the original poster is asking for an instructor who plays at a pro level but certainly someone who is competent themselves. Not much to ask in my opinion and certainly something an instructor should be not feel ashame to disclosed.
 

cubc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
two words: Kelly Fisher

Best instructor ive ever worked with. most logical explanation. Quick to spot whats wrong.. easy to fix etc. I personally like someone who can play too. She can demonstrate everything she says while shes explaining it.

Theres no book or guide or any bs to get your money. She has a lot of tricks up her sleeve even when shes wearing sleeveless.

All you have to do is listen to what she says.
 

SPINDOKTOR

lool wtf??
Silver Member
think about it, how is a c player going to teach a b payer? simple,they cant... most instructors make money teaching you, what you already know....If youve never experianced what its like you can only speculate....otherwise, they are coaches, not teachers...big differance...

SPINDOKTOR
 

satman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're right

Jen_Cen said:
I agree with what everyone here has said. You do not need to be a pro to be a good instructor.

But if you are asked directly, shouldn't you disclose? An instructor is selling a product, himself. Isn't the level he plays at one of the most basic stats you can use to help decide if you're going to give him $900?

Would you give $900 to a D player who read The Science of Pocket Billiards and can tell you all about throw and squirt, but couldn't run 3 balls?

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't pay anyone for lessons who won't tell you. I know there are some coachs and instructors who don't play top level, but teach really well, but they ain't C players. If a guy/girl can't make 3 balls in a row, how can they teach you? They might be able to show you a few things they picked up, but $900 worth.
Where you at? For $900, I'll take a short vacation and give you a few lessons. Is there anyone there who gambles, that don't play pro level? I'll even cut you in on action for steering me. You might end up with free lessons for a month or 2.
 

Jen_Cen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
housecue said:
I don't think the original poster is asking for an instructor who plays at a pro level but certainly someone who is competent themselves. Not much to ask in my opinion and certainly something an instructor should be not feel ashame to disclosed.

Thanks for understanding me, housecue and 3andstop.

That's right, I don't require a pro teacher. But my goal is to rise from C to B one day. I would think that a B (minimum) would be able to relate from personal experience how he/she got over the hump...what the sticking points were....what drills helped them to overcome these sticking points.

I know for a fact that here in NJ there is at least one BCA instructor who is only an APA 5. My friend saw him. This particular instructor said that he "never really got into safeties. He'd rather go down swinging."
 

Jen_Cen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
av84fun said:
If the person is a BCA Certified instructor then it doesn't make any difference what his speed is. By obtaining the certification he has had to prove that he understands the dynamics of the game and can teach it to others effectively.

Privately, I can give you the name of a BCA instructor. He plays at an APA 5 level, doesn't believe in playing safeties (he'd rather go down swinging), oh man, I could go on.

"Interview" him just for fun and maybe you'll feel differently.
 

daphish1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SPINDOKTOR said:
think about it, how is a c player going to teach a b payer? simple,they cant... most instructors make money teaching you, what you already know....If youve never experianced what its like you can only speculate....otherwise, they are coaches, not teachers...big differance...

SPINDOKTOR

I think a C player can tell a B player when the're fundamentals are off. There's some things that you can't see when you are at the table shooting, that someone who is watching and understands the fundamentals can tell you what you did wrong. Goes back to the concept of I know what I'm doing, but sometimes you need someone else to tell you what you are doing wrong, very similar to golf, imo.
 

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Jen_Cen said:
Privately, I can give you the name of a BCA instructor. He plays at an APA 5 level, doesn't believe in playing safeties (he'd rather go down swinging), oh man, I could go on.

"Interview" him just for fun and maybe you'll feel differently.
Thats is funny,definately dont waste your time or money on this guy,he sounds like a joke.How far are you from NYC?,if your close get in contact with Tony Robles,great player and teacher. ;)
 

RunoutalloverU

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some of the confusion comes from the fact that this is a both/and thing, not one or the other. They should be able to teach AND play very well. I think they should be accomplished in their playing, and a professional in their teaching. Because to be honest I would want the guy to be a pro or former pro, or an instructor that pros came to, one or the other. That way no matter how good you are, a person like the one described above is going to be able to teach you something. So obviously a BCA master instructor is going to be able to play well, could he compete on the Guiness Tour? Probably not, but so what. Would someone on the Guiness Tour take lessons from this instructor or someone at this instructors teaching level? That would have to be yes for me. So to sum up I think the instructor should be somewhere between very good to pro in playing ability, and exceptional in teaching ability, with a resume with pros on it.
 

av84fun

Banned
SPINDOKTOR said:
think about it, how is a c player going to teach a b payer? simple,they cant... most instructors make money teaching you, what you already know....If youve never experianced what its like you can only speculate....otherwise, they are coaches, not teachers...big differance...

SPINDOKTOR

I have no way to know for sure, but I doubt any C player could become BCA certified....UNLESS the C rating is a function of age or incapacity.

I've taken some "lessons" with Vern Elliot who is in a wheelchair!

If their are true C players with BCA certifications, then my high regard for them (from studying with a few) would go into the dumper.

Part of instruction is demonstration and C players can't demonstrate beans...and by definition are doing a lot of things wrong.

Regards,
Jim
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
RunoutalloverU...I agree with a lot of your points in this post. However, the facts are that there are a few BCA Master and Advanced Instructors that cannot play well. Randyg is certainly NOT one of them...and neither am I (I can hold my own against most anybody who is not a 'top pro'). However, that may not affect how these Master Instructors teach. You'd have to ask some of their students to be sure. I know how well they play (or this case CAN'T play), but I'm not going to name names.

I've read this whole thread with interest. I'm pretty sure I know who the OP is talking about. I'm also pretty sure that the $900 is a for a multi-day 'pool school'. Is is worth it? Again, like many people said, you'd have to ask students who have been trained by this instructor. I can tell you for certain, that our pool schools do NOT cost $900, and are highly praised far and wide, whether you come to Dallas, or attend a 'road show' pool school. When I work with someone one-on-one, for a 1/2 day or full day, that student will receive a LOT of information (and they will spend a requisite amount of $$$ too), including an extensive video review of their setup and delivery process. Most of the time my students do not get to see much how well I play... because I am teaching, not playing! The truth is, if I had to make a living competing 'on tour' against the Archers et al, I would starve, because I don't play at that level...but I can teach ANYONE, even a top pro, and they WILL learn things that they did not know before, which will help them to improve their game, no matter how well they already play!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

RunoutalloverU said:
Some of the confusion comes from the fact that this is a both/and thing, not one or the other. They should be able to teach AND play very well. I think they should be accomplished in their playing, and a professional in their teaching. Because to be honest I would want the guy to be a pro or former pro, or an instructor that pros came to, one or the other. That way no matter how good you are, a person like the one described above is going to be able to teach you something. So obviously a BCA master instructor is going to be able to play well, could he compete on the Guiness Tour? Probably not, but so what. Would someone on the Guiness Tour take lessons from this instructor or someone at this instructors teaching level? That would have to be yes for me. So to sum up I think the instructor should be somewhere between very good to pro in playing ability, and exceptional in teaching ability, with a resume with pros on it.
 

CaptiveBred

C21H30O2
Silver Member
A pool instructor is different from other sports... Pool is 99% knowledge. If the coach "knows" what they are teaching, they should have no problems running out barring physical conditions.

A good pool instructor should be an A player at the least. If not, then that instructor would not be worth teaching anything advanced... Afterall, if they can't make it work then something is not right...
 

JDB

Idiot Savant
Silver Member
CaptiveBred said:
A pool instructor is different from other sports... Pool is 99% knowledge. If the coach "knows" what they are teaching, they should have no problems running out barring physical conditions.

A good pool instructor should be an A player at the least. If not, then that instructor would not be worth teaching anything advanced... Afterall, if they can't make it work then something is not right...
I think that you contradict yourself from the first pararaph to the second.

If pool is 99% knowledge, there is no reason that someone with the knowledge, regardless of level, cannot teach that knowledge to a superior player.

I probably disagree with most of the people here and definitely believe an inferior player, with the requisite knowledge, can teach a higher level player.

Just because the instructor chooses not to put in a million hours at the table to hone that knowledge does not make him an inferior instructor.

Just my thoughts.
 

SPINDOKTOR

lool wtf??
Silver Member
Im not a bca certified instructor, nor did I mention the bca, My speed is well above C, In this ranking method, I would be an A level player...I can break and run, my straight pool HR is 212, Thus far, since I have started playing with the X shaft, i expect that run to be toast, but i still need a few more weeks, because i have been sidetracked with a cuetec review...when Im done testing the cuetec, im trying again, the video will be posted uncut on my web site....

SPINDOKTOR


av84fun said:
I have no way to know for sure, but I doubt any C player could become BCA certified....UNLESS the C rating is a function of age or incapacity.

I've taken some "lessons" with Vern Elliot who is in a wheelchair!

If their are true C players with BCA certifications, then my high regard for them (from studying with a few) would go into the dumper.

Part of instruction is demonstration and C players can't demonstrate beans...and by definition are doing a lot of things wrong.

Regards,
Jim
 

RunoutalloverU

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scott Lee said:
RunoutalloverU...I agree with a lot of your points in this post. However, the facts are that there are a few BCA Master and Advanced Instructors that cannot play well. Randyg is certainly NOT one of them...and neither am I (I can hold my own against most anybody who is not a 'top pro'). However, that may not affect how these Master Instructors teach. You'd have to ask some of their students to be sure. I know how well they play (or this case CAN'T play), but I'm not going to name names.

I've read this whole thread with interest. I'm pretty sure I know who the OP is talking about. I'm also pretty sure that the $900 is a for a multi-day 'pool school'. Is is worth it? Again, like many people said, you'd have to ask students who have been trained by this instructor. I can tell you for certain, that our pool schools do NOT cost $900, and are highly praised far and wide, whether you come to Dallas, or attend a 'road show' pool school. When I work with someone one-on-one, for a 1/2 day or full day, that student will receive a LOT of information (and they will spend a requisite amount of $$$ too), including an extensive video review of their setup and delivery process. Most of the time my students do not get to see much how well I play... because I am teaching, not playing! The truth is, if I had to make a living competing 'on tour' against the Archers et al, I would starve, because I don't play at that level...but I can teach ANYONE, even a top pro, and they WILL learn things that they did not know before, which will help them to improve their game, no matter how well they already play!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I agree with your points as well Scott. And I hope I was clear that if the instructor couldn't play at a top level, I would have wanted him to atleast have taught someone who is at a top level (touring pro, or someone ive heard of specifically).
 

RunoutalloverU

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jen_Cen said:
Privately, I can give you the name of a BCA instructor. He plays at an APA 5 level, doesn't believe in playing safeties (he'd rather go down swinging), oh man, I could go on.

"Interview" him just for fun and maybe you'll feel differently.

Lol, im going to go out on a limb and say this maybe not the person you would want to take lessons from.
 
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