# International Open

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After the first game is played the score is now 1-0. Who would break then? Think about it.
That would be the 2nd game. Even #. If i won the lag/flip i'd break games 1,3,5,7,etc. Two different ways to look at it i guess.

#### jay helfert

##### Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
That would be the 2nd game. Even #
There is only one way to look at it, and the player when wins the lag breaks first when the score is 0-0. His opponent will now break in the next game when the score is 1-0. After the second game the score will be either 1-1 or 2-0 and the EVEN NUMBERED player (same one who won the lag) will be breaking. At Large made a mistake here and you are only compounding it. This is Basic 9-Ball 101 and I shouldn't have to explain this again.

#### BasementDweller

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is only one way to look at it, and the player when wins the lag breaks first when the score is 0-0. His opponent will now break in the next game when the score is 1-0. After the second game the score will be either 1-1 or 2-0 and the EVEN NUMBERED player (same one who won the lag) will be breaking. At Large made a mistake here and you are only compounding it. This is Basic 9-Ball 101 and I shouldn't have to explain this again.

I've argued these methods too as your way makes more sense but you're missing AtLarge's point.

It's even/odd number game vs. even/odd number score.

I like paying attention to the score better than the rack number. Using two different methods over the years has led to a some confusion in my circles.

#### rexus31

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rack number one is after the lag. There is no rack "zero". Winner of the lag breaks odd numbered racks, loser of the lag breaks even numbered racks.

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is only one way to look at it, and the player when wins the lag breaks first when the score is 0-0. His opponent will now break in the next game when the score is 1-0. After the second game the score will be either 1-1 or 2-0 and the EVEN NUMBERED player (same one who won the lag) will be breaking. At Large made a mistake here and you are only compounding it. This is Basic 9-Ball 101 and I shouldn't have to explain this again.

I've argued these methods too as your way makes more sense but you're missing AtLarge's point.

It's even/odd number game vs. even/odd number score.

I like paying attention to the score better than the rack number. Using two different methods over the years has led to a some confusion in my circles.
Perfect explanation. Two ways of arriving at the same destination. I've always gone by the game #. I also know NEVER argue with the TD.

#### Jimmorrison

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rack number one is after the lag. There is no rack "zero". Winner of the lag breaks odd numbered racks, loser of the lag breaks even numbered racks.
I’ve never seen it done any other way

#### VVP

##### Registered
Why didn't Albin or Dennis tell the refree it was Dennis turn to break???? My computer had to be reloaded when this happened so I didn't know exactly what transpired but I found it odd that Albin was breaking. I believe Jay's method of determining whose turn to break is the best because you see the scores to add the numbers quickly. To go by rack you have to add the scores and then plus one which could lead to confusion as might have been with the refree in this case.

#### Cornerman

##### Cue Author...Sometimes
Silver Member
After the first game is played the score is now 1-0. Who would break then? Think about it.
One of you talking about the score being an odd number versus the game to be broken being an even number.

##### "no buds chill"
Silver Member
Shane just beat Albin 11-2 last month in Atlantic City deep in the tournament. I remember watching that; Albin never had a chance. Shane put together a few packs and the few times Albin was at the table he never had an offensive shot. He didn't get a single roll in that match and was reduced to a spectator. It's a peculiar game, 9 ball. Both amazing players.
And if you watched this match, Albin got fortunate that Shane's break wasn't working well at all and got some unlucky kicks on the cueball. Not to take away from Albin's game because I used to think the same thing, that his game was overrated and he was fortunate to be a world champ, but he has shown that he is world class for sure. However, saying he's got Shane's number is ridiculous and if you see a lot of the other posts of Iusedtoberich you'll note that he's just one of the Shane haters who loves to see him lose.

Now starts the inevitable Shane nuthugger comments, although I'm not, and my favorite player has ALWAYS been Efren...

#### JusticeNJ

##### Four Points/Steel Joints
Silver Member
I went and rewatched the racks in question and Albin broke twice in a row for sure.

#### Fatboy

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who’s on first?
What’s on second?

#### WGDave

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
AtLarge is correct.
I will present video evidence of the referees mistake.

Game13 Break-Dennis scratches. No score on screen at this point, sorry.

Game 14 break-Albin breaks

Game 15-Albin breaks and drops the 9ball.

9 ball drops

#### AtLarge

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is only one way to look at it, and the player when wins the lag breaks first when the score is 0-0. His opponent will now break in the next game when the score is 1-0. After the second game the score will be either 1-1 or 2-0 and the EVEN NUMBERED player (same one who won the lag) will be breaking. At Large made a mistake here and you are only compounding it. This is Basic 9-Ball 101 and I shouldn't have to explain this again.
No, Jay, I didn't make a mistake. There are two ways (at least) to keep track of whose break it is and they both result in identifying the correct breaker. I usually do it by thinking of the number of the game that is about to be broken. You do it by thinking of the combined scores of the games already played.

But either way you do it, Ouschan broke twice in a row -- with the scores at 8-5 and 9-5 (your way), or for Game 14 and Game 15 (my way).

And that was a shame. The mistake took it to a 5-game lead (10-5) after 15 games, with Ouschan needing 3 more games to win the match. If Orcollo had broken and won Game 15, it would have been a 3-game lead (9-6) with Ouschan needing 4 more games to win. It probably would not have changed the outcome of the match, but who knows.

#### skogstokig

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
weird how they all slept it. going by TPA and score it probably didn't matter in an alternate break match, but still weird especially since dennis usually is so alert in noticing these things

#### AtLarge

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
weird how they all slept it. going by TPA and score it probably didn't matter in an alternate break match, but still weird especially since dennis usually is so alert in noticing these things
And another oddity -- during Game 14, Jeremy remarked (correctly) that Orcollo would be breaking next. Then when Ouschan went up and broke next instead of Orcollo, Jeremy didn't say anything. I guess he just thought he was wrong about his remark during Game 14.

#### Island Drive

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
''Jeremy didn't say anything''

It's not his place....

#### jay helfert

##### Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
No, Jay, I didn't make a mistake. There are two ways (at least) to keep track of whose break it is and they both result in identifying the correct breaker. I usually do it by thinking of the number of the game that is about to be broken. You do it by thinking of the combined scores of the games already played.

But either way you do it, Ouschan broke twice in a row -- with the scores at 8-5 and 9-5 (your way), or for Game 14 and Game 15 (my way).

And that was a shame. The mistake took it to a 5-game lead (10-5) after 15 games, with Ouschan needing 3 more games to win the match. If Orcollo had broken and won Game 15, it would have been a 3-game lead (9-6) with Ouschan needing 4 more games to win. It probably would not have changed the outcome of the match, but who knows.
I've never seen the even number player break when the score adds up to an odd number. That would be a first for me, but please show me one tournament where it was done that way. I love the stats that you provide but please don't confuse people about something as basic as this. It's only been done one way in every tournament I've ever been involved in (hundreds) and every tournament I've ever gone to (thousands).

It's possible a mistake was made in the breaking order in this match. That is a common occurence when playing alternate break. That is why we just remember to look at the score and if the total is "even" the winner of the lag breaks (the first breaker) and if it's "odd" the other player breaks. KISS

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've never seen the even number player break when the score adds up to an odd number. That would be a first for me, but please show me one tournament where it was done that way. I love the stats that you provide but please don't confuse people about something as basic as this. It's only been done one way in every tournament I've ever been involved in (hundreds) and every tournament I've ever gone to (thousands).

It's possible a mistake was made in the breaking order in this match. That is a common occurence when playing alternate break. That is why we just remember to look at the score and if the total is "even" the winner of the lag breaks (first breaker) and if it's "odd" their opponent breaks. KISS
Another reason to go with winner break.

#### jay helfert

##### Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
AtLarge is correct.
I will present video evidence of the referees mistake.

Game13 Break-Dennis scratches. No score on screen at this point, sorry.

View attachment 614797

Game 14 break-Albin breaks

View attachment 614798

Game 15-Albin breaks and drops the 9ball.

View attachment 614799

9 ball drops

View attachment 614801
Going by these videos it appears that somewhere in the match the breaking order got reversed. Simple math, starting with Dennis breaking at 0-0 will tell you this. At what point in the match the players got confused on the breaking order we don't know. This is a fault of the referee to allow this to happen.

#### jay helfert

##### Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Are we really having this discussion? There is and only has been one way to determine who's break it is in Alternate Break forever! It has NEVER been done any other way! You win the lag, you break first. After game one, when the score is 1-0, your opponent breaks. The total score at that moment is also 1 (1 + 0 = 1). One (1) is an odd number, right. How am I doing so far? After the second game the score is either 2-0 or 1-1. If you add that up the total comes to 2! Two (2) is an even number! The winner of the lag would now break again. How are we doing so far? Have I lost anyone yet? And when the score gets to 2-2, that adds up to 4! This is a quiz now. Who's turn to break is it? If you can remember that 2 and 2 is four, you should be all right from here.