IPT World Qualifiers Entry Increased - More Lies?

[JAM]

It's also a military acronym warning someone to prepare for something unpleasant that is about to happen.
Steve

B--d O--r. H--e i- C----s A---n!

JAM

 

[unknownpro]

15-ball rotation is a game enjoyed by young up-and-coming Filipino players. I never heard of the game when I was a young pup. Eleven, playing 15-ball rotation. Now you've got my curiosity piqued!

JAM

When we weren't playing rotation, it was snooker, of course. I quit playing 8-ball at 10, cause only non-players played 8-ball. But I like it now with ball in hand rules. We played rotation with no safes. If you wanted to play safe we played snooker. It sure was hot.

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

Tennis players have to pay a LOT of money to enter tournaments to qualify for spots in the pro tournaments. Golfers spend a ton of money to get on the PRO TOUR.

Is this true about tennis?

I guarantee you that IF there were a weekly tournament here where the prize at the end of the series were a spot in a qualifier then I would play in it. Whenever the pool world wakes up to holding really small dollar entry tournaments to funnel players into the qualifiers then we will have a tour and a system that works to keep the best players in the chips and to have the talented unknowns get their chances.

There are millions of bowlers, tennis players, and golfers out there who spend the money on a weekly basis to fund their systems to have a pro tour. Billiards has no path from the amateurs to the professionals that is consistent or desireable.

John

I agree completely.

unknownpro

 

[pooltchr]

B--d O--r. H--e i- C----s A---n!

JAM

You got it!!!

By the way...we got our first pool table when I was about 10 years old (early 60's) and the only game I knew was the one my father and older brother played...15 ball rotation!
Steve

 

[jimmyg]

If you do the math - the qualifiers have brought in FAR less than they are paying out and will continue to do so. I think KT is smart enough to know that average league players aren't going to fund this tour. The qualifier fee keeps the fields small and manageble for the qualifiers.

But to answer your question - Poker (an ESPN "sport") has it's purses financed by thousands of $10,000 entries which are in turn, financed by much lower entries into thousands of "qualifier" tournaments.

Tennis players have to pay a LOT of money to enter tournaments to qualify for spots in the pro tournaments. Golfers spend a ton of money to get on the PRO TOUR.

Realistically, the fee for the qualifier can be seen as the entry to the tournament itself - with multiple chance to get in. At no other time in the history of pool (now I sound like KT) has the entry fee to a tournament been so small compared to the prize fund available. The only way it gets out of proportion is IF someone were to enter so many qualifiers that they would need to fininsh in the top ten to break even. AND this is precisely the case already for MOST "professional" tournaments going on NOW. Tommy Kennedy once got $1700 for coming in 9-12th in the US Open. Out of over two hundred players he won $1700 for a week's worth of high intensity competition, a week's worth of entertaining the spectators and a week's worth of hotel bills and other expenses. Luckily for Tommy though, he didn't have to fade the $500 entry fee as he is a US Open winner.

$500 entry to win $40,000 or $1500 to win $1,000,000. Gee, just doesn't seem like much of a comparison does it? Nobody *****es when no-chance shortstops plunk down $500 at the Open so why should you care if no-chance players spend $1500 for a shot at the IPT.

I guarantee you that IF there were a weekly tournament here where the prize at the end of the series were a spot in a qualifier then I would play in it. Whenever the pool world wakes up to holding really small dollar entry tournaments to funnel players into the qualifiers then we will have a tour and a system that works to keep the best players in the chips and to have the talented unknowns get their chances.

There are millions of bowlers, tennis players, and golfers out there who spend the money on a weekly basis to fund their systems to have a pro tour. Billiards has no path from the amateurs to the professionals that is consistent or desireable.

John

I was going to qualify my statement by exempting Poker, mostly because Poker and gambling are synonomous, but also because I don't know much about the organizations that operate the tournaments. But, I believe, even with poker, and I may be incorrect, that a relatively small proportion of the prize money actually comes from player fees.

On the other hand, tennis (ATP), is a developed, professional organization and has several different levels of professional tournament tours beginning with Futures, Challengers, Champion, Masters, Championship and of course the Grand Slams. It is fairly complicated. Players that qualify, there is a national/international ranking and point system, can enter these tournaments for an entry fee of about $30 -$250 gaining ranking points for future and bigger events. Non qualifying entrants pay a little more. I know that two of the Grand Slams, the US Open and Wimbleton do not charge ANY entry fees, not sure about the Austrialian and French.

I don't know for sure, but if I HAD to guess, I's say that the PGA, and maybe even the PBA, are run about the same way.

But these professional organizations are there for more than simply collecting fees from their membership, they develop junior programs, organize and support charitiy events and programs, offer membership benefits, they also offer college scholarships to talented youngsters and give members unlimited access to corporate sponsorship. Sure they are interested in prize money and profits, but they are also interested in becoming contributing parts of the mainstream world while promoting their sport. That's why the corporate world embraces them.

Granted that the IPT is in it's infancy and perhaps all of this is part of an eventual plan, but right now the business model appears to be one where the members (players) contribute ALL of the prize money. Currently, it doesn't look as though the IPT is interested in anything other than selling more qualifyers. Just do the math. I don't know for sure, but I did read on this board that there were/are fifty (50) qualifyers and the IPT was expecting a full 64 person field for each. At $1,000 per, thats 3,200 entry fees times $1,000. If my math is correct that equals $3,200.000.00, or what was initially advertised as the total original purse. Now, it appears, that they underestimated the number of entrants and the need to raise the entry fee is required.

I may be, and hope, that I am totally wrong, but, so far, this closely resembles a typical pyramid play.

 

[ScottW]

A little quickie math, with regards to the World Open event:

$3 million purse / 25 qualifier events (2 people in each event qualify) = $120,000 per qualifier

$120,000 / $1500 (the entry fee) = 80 people would have to enter each qualifier, to cover just the purse.

That doesn't take into account any other expenses - manpower, venue rental, equipment (including tables) rental, any videotaping expenses (labor/rentals), travel & lodging for staff, per diems or whatever for meals, etc. etc.

Now, I doubt they're going to get 80 people shelling out $1.5k in 25 events to start with. So part of that purse, along with all the operating expenses, will have to come from somewhere.

What will be interesting is to see how the NA Open event plays out, and how that affects qualifier entries for the World Open. The first five World qualifier events happen before the NA Open, the rest start a few weeks after.

 

[unknownpro]

You got it!!!

By the way...we got our first pool table when I was about 10 years old (early 60's) and the only game I knew was the one my father and older brother played...15 ball rotation!
Steve

I'd bet your local poolroom had a snooker table too.

unknownpro

 

[onepocketchump]

I was going to qualify my statement by exempting Poker, mostly because Poker and gambling are synonomous, but also because I don't know much about the organizations that operate the tournaments. But, I believe, even with poker, and I may be incorrect, that a relatively small proportion of the prize money actually comes from player fees.

On the other hand, tennis (ATP), is a developed, professional organization and has several different levels of professional tournament tours beginning with Futures, Challengers, Champion, Masters, Championship and of course the Grand Slams. It is fairly complicated. Players that qualify, there is a national/international ranking and point system, can enter these tournaments for an entry fee of about $30 -$250 gaining ranking points for future and bigger events. Non qualifying entrants pay a little more. I know that two of the Grand Slams, the US Open and Wimbleton do not charge ANY entry fees, not sure about the Austrialian and French.

I don't know for sure, but if I HAD to guess, I's say that the PGA, and maybe even the PBA, are run about the same way.

But these professional organizations are there for more than simply collecting fees from their membership, they develop junior programs, organize and support charitiy events and programs, offer membership benefits, they also offer college scholarships to talented youngsters and give members unlimited access to corporate sponsorship. Sure they are interested in prize money and profits, but they are also interested in becoming contributing parts of the mainstream world while promoting their sport. That's why the corporate world embraces them.

Granted that the IPT is in it's infancy and perhaps all of this is part of an eventual plan, but right now the business model appears to be one where the members (players) contribute ALL of the prize money. Currently, it doesn't look as though the IPT is interested in anything other than selling more qualifyers. Just do the math. I don't know for sure, but I did read on this board that there were/are fifty (50) qualifyers and the IPT was expecting a full 64 person field for each. At $1,000 per, thats 3,200 entry fees times $1,000. If my math is correct that equals $3,200.000.00, or what was initially advertised as the total original purse. Now, it appears, that they underestimated the number of entrants and the need to raise the entry fee is required.

I may be, and hope, that I am totally wrong, but, so far, this closely resembles a typical pyramid play.

You are forgetting the production costs and associated costs of each event. Even if the IPT were to have gained 3.2 million from the qualifiers it still doesn't cover the cost of running the qualifiers, the free entries, the bonus money paid out to IPT challenge players, the fees paid to the tournament directors, and the cost of producing the main event itself.

There is no way that this resembles a pyramid scheme in the slightest. A pyramid scheme promises a rate of return on investment that is completely outside the realm of reality for nothing more than an initial investment. The IPT stresses VERY CLEARLY that all prize money must be EARNED by beating the best players in the world. It promises only that there is a sum guaranteed IF and only if a player makes it to the full tour. The IPT makes no pretenses about the fact that the competition is fierce.

Considering just the payouts for the 2005/2006 season it is quite clear that the IPT will be paying out far more than it takes in through the qualifier system. I don't see how this possibly equates with all of the financial burden being on the players.

Maybe it is inconceivable to some of you here that the money for this tour for two years is already there. Let me give you an example from my own life about how money and collateral works. I once knew a man who secured $300,000 in ten minutes from a bank that didn't even want to talk to me. How did he do this? By threatening to pull his deposits, several million dollar's worth. The only collateral required was his signature, no more fuss, no worrying about the business plan and whether the bank thought it was viable or not. There is not one of us who knows how much capital or access to capital Kevin Trudeau has at his disposal.

We can only speculate based on what we know of his past and how we feel based on his current messages. There is no doubt that Kevin Trudeau comes off as sleazy and over the top in the hype department. I think though that this is mostly because we are all so very jaded by hucksters in the billiard world and in life in general. I guess that it's inevitable that Kevin is going to use the direct marketing techniques that have been successful for him in the IPT venture as well. All I can say to that is that from my perspective it sounds crappy in practice but so far NOTHING else that anyone in the billiard world has tried has produced anything that was ever close to providing a viable platform for a professional billiards tour with earnings that reflect the skill and dedication needed to win at that level.

John

 

[unknownpro]

You too, nobody cares how much it cost to cut your grass.

unknownpro

I apologize to jjinfla for being rude. And obnoxious. How much does that grass cutting job pay? I got my mower working again...

unknownpro

 

[StraightPoolIU]

Just a little info for everyone on how the PGA Tour conducts business. It is a fully exempt tour like the IPT with the Top 125 on the money list each year earning a tour card for next year. The guys that fall from 126-150 on the money list are exempted into the PGA Tour's 3rd stage of their qualifying tournament known as Q school. Q School is a three stage event that at the last time I checked costs 5,000 to enter (it's an amount high enough to keep out those who aren't serious). The top so many make it to next stage and so on until the top few after the 3rd stage get their tour cards for the next year. Of course there are numerous other ways to get a tour card....winning a tour event after Monday qualifying in an open tournament or winning 3 times on PGA's developmental Nationawide Tour (known as the battlefield promotion).

 

[jay helfert]

I do.



I'm sure you can find better things to do with your time. Me, I'm stuck on this doggone computer day in and day out for my job. Currently, I'm recording a webcast as I am writing this post and then will have to transcribe it for daily delivery.



Thank you for the good luck. At the last Joss Turning Stone Casino tournament when Keith came in second place, he bought me a beautiful Native American purse, hand-crafted, for 425 beans. It's gorgeous.

JAM

Now, I'm really jealous. All the rooms we shared and money we made and he never bought me a turnip! LOL

That is a beautiful purse! And unique as well.

 

[jay helfert]

I was going to qualify my statement by exempting Poker, mostly because Poker and gambling are synonomous, but also because I don't know much about the organizations that operate the tournaments. But, I believe, even with poker, and I may be incorrect, that a relatively small proportion of the prize money actually comes from player fees.


Actually, in Poker tournaments, ALL the prize money comes from players entry fees. In fact a certain percentage (usually 6% to 9%) is deducted from the entry/registration money and paid to the "house" and the dealers.

It's a rough deal as well, with major events charging entries of $1,000 and up. I just returned from the World Series of Poker and played in three preliminary events, costing $1,500 each. I won exactly zero, as did 90% of the field.

Last year I played five World Series events at a cost of $8,500. I made one final table (7th in Limit Hold'em) and won $41,880. It's definitely a crapshoot, kind of like playing an IPT qualifier. I'm going back next week to try again. Every one of the preliminary tournaments at the World Series has prize funds in seven figures. First prize can be as high as 800K or as 'low' as 350K.

The final event will have a $10,000 buy in and attract 7 to 8,000 players. First prize will be in the neighborhood of 10 million. I see many former pool players at all these events. You can follow the results on cardplayer.com or pokerpages.com

 

[jimmyg]

I was going to qualify my statement by exempting Poker, mostly because Poker and gambling are synonomous, but also because I don't know much about the organizations that operate the tournaments. But, I believe, even with poker, and I may be incorrect, that a relatively small proportion of the prize money actually comes from player fees.


Actually, in Poker tournaments, ALL the prize money comes from players entry fees. In fact a certain percentage (usually 6% to 9%) is deducted from the entry/registration money and paid to the "house" and the dealers.

It's a rough deal as well, with major events charging entries of $1,000 and up. I just returned from the World Series of Poker and played in three preliminary events, costing $1,500 each. I won exactly zero, as did 90% of the field.

Last year I played five World Series events at a cost of $8,500. I made one final table (7th in Limit Hold'em) and won $41,880. It's definitely a crapshoot, kind of like playing an IPT qualifier. I'm going back next week to try again. Every one of the preliminary tournaments at the World Series has prize funds in seven figures. First prize can be as high as 800K or as 'low' as 350K.

The final event will have a $10,000 buy in and attract 7 to 8,000 players. First prize will be in the neighborhood of 10 million. I see many former pool players at all these events. You can follow the results on cardplayer.com or pokerpages.com

Thanks for the information, interesting, although my opinion of KT and the IPT business model remains the same. Good luck at the World Series of Poker.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

B--d O--r. H--e i- C----s A---n!

JAM

BOHICA. Bend Over Here It Comes Again (pronounced: bow-hee-ka)

 

[onepocketchump]

I was going to qualify my statement by exempting Poker, mostly because Poker and gambling are synonomous, but also because I don't know much about the organizations that operate the tournaments. But, I believe, even with poker, and I may be incorrect, that a relatively small proportion of the prize money actually comes from player fees.


Actually, in Poker tournaments, ALL the prize money comes from players entry fees. In fact a certain percentage (usually 6% to 9%) is deducted from the entry/registration money and paid to the "house" and the dealers.

It's a rough deal as well, with major events charging entries of $1,000 and up. I just returned from the World Series of Poker and played in three preliminary events, costing $1,500 each. I won exactly zero, as did 90% of the field.

Last year I played five World Series events at a cost of $8,500. I made one final table (7th in Limit Hold'em) and won $41,880. It's definitely a crapshoot, kind of like playing an IPT qualifier. I'm going back next week to try again. Every one of the preliminary tournaments at the World Series has prize funds in seven figures. First prize can be as high as 800K or as 'low' as 350K.

The final event will have a $10,000 buy in and attract 7 to 8,000 players. First prize will be in the neighborhood of 10 million. I see many former pool players at all these events. You can follow the results on cardplayer.com or pokerpages.com

I'd say that poker is even more of a crapshoot than pool is. Especially pool at the IPT level. Jay, I can put you out of a poker tournament with a couple bad beats but I am not going to eliminate you from a tournament with a couple bad rolls. In pool you definitely have to BRING THE PHYSICAL SKILL and the BRAINS to outshoot and outsmart your opponent.

You might have the nuts up until the river when I outdraw you. That has ZERO to do with skill, nothing it's pure 100% luck. The luck factor is HUGE in poker and much, much smaller in pool. I watch a lot of poker and while there are a lot of gutsy plays where the winner of the hand bluffed his way there, there are more times when the hand won through a lucky draw on the river. That's not skill.

Despite your problems with the IPT even you have to admit that this is the most ambitious undertaking anyone has ever tried to bring pool into the mainstream of American conciousness. You are playing in the World Series of Poker for huge purses ONLY because an entrepeneur had the vision to bring poker to the world through the World Poker Tour. He was ridiculed and told it wouldn't work. The top players wanted no part of it. It took three years to get on an obscure cable channel, the Travel Channel. Where is the connection between poker and travel guides? Now look at it. And it's all player financed.

Pool will never ever have that because one comes up to their limitations very quickly in pool wheras in poker everyone thinks they can be great if the cards run right. But pool might just end up with a viable system that works to support a lucrative pro tour. If so then great - it's what players for a hundred years have yearned for. If not - then we aren't any worse off. The money for the qualifiers - forgotten - those guys bet more than that on who can eat more eggs for breakfast.

John