Is a Straight Stroke All That Important?

[Jal]

For all of those that think the stroke angle is the same, as usual we can exaggerate things and make them clearer. Grab a large ball, volley ball sized or bigger, and lay it on the floor or a pool table if you have one at home.

Lay a cue stick pointing at it dead center, representing a standard centerline shot. Now grab the stick one foot from the tip and hold it in place as the bridge for back hand english. Grab the middle of the wrap area and swing the cue stick until the tip points at the halfway point between center ball and the edge. This illustrates backhand english. Note that line and return to the center ball line.

This time grip the cue in the middle of the wrap area and holding this in place, swing the cue tip to the same halfway point on the cue ball. Note this line, this represents front hand english. Return the cue to the original center ball location.

Now move both the bridge and the grip hand in the same direction to move the tip to the same point halfway between the center line of the cue ball and the edge. This represents parallel english.

By using the large ball anyone should be able to see that we are looking at three distinct angles. If you can't resist poking that big ball with a cue stick you will find that only slight adjustments to the contact point are required to send the ball to the same location using any of these three angles.

Hu

Hu, I guess it's a truism, but it depends on what one means by slight. The diagram shows how the cue must be oriented for an intended cueball direction and tip offset (b). Note that the cue's intrinsic pivot point lies along a line going through the center of the cueball in the desired direction.



Patrick has been saying that no matter what method you use to arrive at this orientation, that's the way the cue has to be positioned for this particular offset (b) and cueball direction. (Forgive me, but I'm not sure at this point if you're in total agreement with this.)

Call the distance from the tip to the cue's intrinsic (squirt) pivot point "P," and the distance from the tip to your bridge "B." Here are three systematic ways of producing that orientation.

Backhand English - Simply bridge at the intrinsic pivot point (B=P).

Parallel Shift with a Bridge Pivot - Here you're pivoting at your bridge, which happens not to be located at the squirt pivot point (B not = P). Starting with your cue lined up at centerball along the desired CB direction, first parallel shift by the distance (1 - B/P)b, then pivot to take up the remainder of the offset (B/P)b. For instance, if P is twice B, parallel shift for half of b and then pivot the rest of the way. If P lies between your bridge and the tip (B>P), then the quantity (1-B/P)b is negative. In that case, parallel shift in the opposite direction (away from b) by that amount, then pivot at your bridge to b.

Parallel Shift with a Grip Pivot - The above formula is general, so just replace B with G, where G is the distance from the tip to your grip hand. Since G will always be greater than P, the parallel shift will always be "negative" (i.e., away from b).

I'm not necessarily recommending anyone do the above (especially since no one may have actually read through it ), but just indicating that the comparative amounts of shifting and pivoting depend on the location of your bridge relative to the cue's pivot point.

Jim

 

[riedmich]

Hu, I guess it's a truism, but it depends on what one means by slight. The diagram shows how the cue must be oriented for an intended cueball direction and tip offset (b). Note that the cue's intrinsic pivot point lies along a line going through the center of the cueball in the desired direction.

View attachment 229718

Patrick has been saying that no matter what method you use to arrive at this orientation, that's the way the cue has to be positioned for this particular offset (b) and cueball direction. (Forgive me, but I'm not sure at this point if you're in total agreement with this.)

Call the distance from the tip to the cue's intrinsic (squirt) pivot point "P," and the distance from the tip to your bridge "B." Here are three systematic ways of producing that orientation.

Backhand English - Simply bridge at the intrinsic pivot point (B=P).

Parallel Shift with a Bridge Pivot - Here you're pivoting at your bridge, which happens not to be located at the squirt pivot point (B not = P). Starting with your cue lined up at centerball along the desired CB direction, first parallel shift by the distance (1 - B/P)b, then pivot to take up the remainder of the offset (B/P)b. For instance, if P is twice B, parallel shift for half of b and then pivot the rest of the way. If P lies between your bridge and the tip (B>P), then the quantity (1-B/P)b is negative. In that case, parallel shift in the opposite direction (away from b) by that amount, then pivot at your bridge to b.

Parallel Shift with a Grip Pivot - The above formula is general, so just replace B with G, where G is the distance from the tip to your grip hand. Since G will always be greater than P, the parallel shift will always be "negative" (i.e., away from b).

I'm not necessarily recommending anyone do the above (especially since no one may have actually read through it ), but just indicating that the comparative amounts of shifting and pivoting depend on the location of your bridge relative to the cue's pivot point.

Jim

Hi Jim,

thanks for this great information. It is the background why I said, a straight stroke is far more important than most other issues, and I am convinced also much more important than a "consistant" stroke. (Important to give the balls the direction you want to have.)

There are many situations where you have to play with different lengths of the bridge, meassure "B" in your explanations. If your stroke is not straight you will have far more problems in pocketing because of wrong pivot results caused by different bridge lengths.

 

[ShootingArts]

compensating for squirt

Jim,

It seems that both you and PJ inisist that the only way to compensate for squirt is by bridging at the proper pivot point to do so.

What do you do when the physical limitations of the shot prevent you from bridging at the perfect pivot point? I strongly suspect that you adjust your aim to allow for squirt. That is exactly what everyone shooting with "traditional" parallel english does on every shot using english. It isn't really that big of a deal because once you learn how to use speed and angles you use very little side english on most shots anyway.

Hu, I guess it's a truism, but it depends on what one means by slight. The diagram shows how the cue must be oriented for an intended cueball direction and tip offset (b). Note that the cue's intrinsic pivot point lies along a line going through the center of the cueball in the desired direction.

View attachment 229718

Patrick has been saying that no matter what method you use to arrive at this orientation, that's the way the cue has to be positioned for this particular offset (b) and cueball direction. (Forgive me, but I'm not sure at this point if you're in total agreement with this.)

This I agree with only because a particular offset is the same as saying a particular contact point. However my contention is that by using a slightly different offset and using a slightly different line of force relative to the center axis of the cue ball we can get what is for all practical purposes the same result. The ball will be pocketed and the cue ball will take a near Identical path after ball and rail contact. This seems so obvious to me from a mechanical standpoint that I don't know why we are debating it.

Call the distance from the tip to the cue's intrinsic (squirt) pivot point "P," and the distance from the tip to your bridge "B." Here are three systematic ways of producing that orientation.

Backhand English - Simply bridge at the intrinsic pivot point (B=P).

Parallel Shift with a Bridge Pivot

Parallel english as it has been used for generations doesn't have a bridge pivot, the stroke is for all practical purposes parallel to the stroke through the centerline of the cue ball when not using english.

- Here you're pivoting at your bridge, which happens not to be located at the squirt pivot point (B not = P). Starting with your cue lined up at centerball along the desired CB direction, first parallel shift by the distance (1 - B/P)b, then pivot to take up the remainder of the offset (B/P)b. For instance, if P is twice B, parallel shift for half of b and then pivot the rest of the way. If P lies between your bridge and the tip (B>P), then the quantity (1-B/P)b is negative. In that case, parallel shift in the opposite direction (away from b) by that amount, then pivot at your bridge to b.

Parallel Shift with a Grip Pivot - The above formula is general, so just replace B with G, where G is the distance from the tip to your grip hand. Since G will always be greater than P, the parallel shift will always be "negative" (i.e., away from b).

I'm not necessarily recommending anyone do the above (especially since no one may have actually read through it ), but just indicating that the comparative amounts of shifting and pivoting depend on the location of your bridge relative to the cue's pivot point.

Jim

Using front or back hand english for part of your offset reduces squirt compared to "traditional" parallel english. Countless millions of balls have been pocketed over the years without doing this however. Again, it isn't always possible to bridge at the perfect pivot point. I feel sure that you don't dismiss a shot as impossible to make or impossible to use side english if you can't bridge at the pivot point. Not bridging at the pivot point on all shots is just an extension of that. Bowlers curve every first ball in with great accuracy and don't have the ability to aim a ball nearly as precisely as a cueist does. Even shooting pool using the pivot point curves the cue ball to it's target, you are just minimizing curve. Bigger curve, smaller curve, I don't see a great deal of significance once you learn to shoot with either one. It is a lot like the standard shaft/low deflection shaft debates. Either can work extremely well, eiher is frustrating when you aren't used to using it.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jim,

It seems that both you and PJ inisist that the only way to compensate for squirt is by bridging at the proper pivot point to do so.

(Disregarding swerve for clarity's sake...)

The only way to compensate accurately for squirt is for the shaft's pivot point to be on the CueBall/GhostBall centerline.

Your bridge hand doesn't have to be at the pivot point, the pivot point just has to end up on the CB/GB centerline. The existence of "backhand" and "fronthand" english methods reflects this: "backhand" english is intended for cues with pivot points near the bridge and "fronthand" english is intended for cues with pivot points farther back - both methods are designed to place the cue's pivot point on the CB/GB centerline.

"Parallel" english is no different from any other method in this respect; it too must meet the baseline requirement of placing the cue's pivot point on the CB/GB centerline. One systematic way of doing that is to "parallel shift" partway to the tip offset and "backhand pivot" the rest of the way - you can calculate how much of each method works for your shaft using simple math (see my post below). The "parallel shift" and "backhand pivot" combination is the same as your "parallel shift with minor adjustments".

The need for the shaft's pivot point be on the CB/GB centerline is consistent with the limitation that only one tip/CB spot and one cue angle can produce a desired CB direction and spin.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

tests

(Disregarding swerve for clarity's sake...)

The only way to compensate accurately for squirt is for the shaft's pivot point to be on the CB/OB centerline.

Your bridge hand doesn't have to be at the pivot point, the pivot point just has to end up on the CB/OB centerline. The existence of "backhand" and "fronthand" english methods reflects this: "backhand" english is intended for cues with pivot points near the bridge and "fronthand" english is intended for cues with pivot points farther back - both methods are designed to place the cue's pivot point on the CB/OB centerline.

"Parallel" english is no different from any other method in this respect; it too must meet the baseline requirement of placing the cue's pivot point on the CB/OB centerline. One systematic way of doing that is to parallel-shift partway to the tip offset and pivot the rest of the way - you can calculate how far to parallel-shift before pivoting using simple math designed to place the cue's pivot point on the CB/OB centerline (this pivot after the parallel shift is the same as your "minor adjustments").

The need for the shaft's pivot point be on the CB/OB centerline is consistent with the limitation that only one tip/CB spot and one cue angle can produce a desired CB direction and spin.

pj
chgo

PJ,

I have a small window of time for testing in the very early hours of Monday morning if you can come up with something. I see by the post I am replying to that you haven't tried the simple test I suggested yet! :grin:

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"Parallel" english ... must meet the baseline requirement of placing the cue's pivot point on the CB/GB centerline. One systematic way of doing that is to "parallel shift" partway to the tip offset and "backhand pivot" the rest of the way - you can calculate how much of each method works for your shaft using simple math (see my post below).

Since I brought this up...

Here's a chart showing how to combine the "parallel shift" and "backhand pivot" methods of squirt compensation by comparing your bridge length to your shaft's pivot length. This hybrid method uses the bridge/pivotpoint ratio to combine the right amounts of "parallel shift" and "backhand pivot" so that the tip is placed at the desired sidespin offset while the cue's pivot point is on the CueBall/GhostBall centerline.



pj
chgo

 

[AtLarge]

... The only way to compensate accurately for squirt is for the shaft's pivot point to be on the CB/OB centerline. ...

Instead of "on the CB/OB centerline" don't you mean on the CB/ghost-ball centerline (for a shot at an OB), or, even more generally, on the line through the center of the CB pointing in the desired CB direction.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Instead of "on the CB/OB centerline" don't you mean on the CB/ghost-ball centerline (for a shot at an OB), or, even more generally, on the line through the center of the CB pointing in the desired CB direction.

Yes, that's what I should have said. Thanks for catching it; I'll correct my post.

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

I'm guessing that it's probably the holy grail of pool but I don't think you have to have, as long as your consitent. John B.

Then I have a question,
Since you swing it so straight, is this aspect of play Why your bank game is so consistent? I would think lessening the variables within the shot would give that player a definite advantage.

Because when we had our match play in Ohio, the break you had could Never be improved, you had the Break On A String. Every break of yours in every game (and you won 11-9) I think, whitey went vertical came down bump/bump EVERY frickin' time right around the spot area, was surprised you didn't break the light a couple times. Seeing someone play like this is Very intimidating. It reminded me of Wade Crane at the time but more consistent.

 

[Jal]

It seems that both you and PJ inisist that the only way to compensate for squirt is by bridging at the proper pivot point to do so.

Not at all, only that the cue's intrinsic pivot lie on the line going through the center of the CB in the intended direction of the CB. That's what the other two methods "Parallel Shift with Bridge Pivot" and ""Parallel Shift with Grip Pivot" accomplish: getting the squirt pivot point of the cue on that line when you're not bridging at the pivot point.

What do you do when the physical limitations of the shot prevent you from bridging at the perfect pivot point? I strongly suspect that you adjust your aim to allow for squirt. That is exactly what everyone shooting with "traditional" parallel english does on every shot using english. It isn't really that big of a deal because once you learn how to use speed and angles you use very little side english on most shots anyway.

I do it by feel all the time, for better or worse.

Using front or back hand english for part of your offset reduces squirt compared to "traditional" parallel english. Countless millions of balls have been pocketed over the years without doing this however. Again, it isn't always possible to bridge at the perfect pivot point. I feel sure that you don't dismiss a shot as impossible to make or impossible to use side english if you can't bridge at the pivot point. Not bridging at the pivot point on all shots is just an extension of that. Bowlers curve every first ball in with great accuracy and don't have the ability to aim a ball nearly as precisely as a cueist does. Even shooting pool using the pivot point curves the cue ball to it's target, you are just minimizing curve. Bigger curve, smaller curve, I don't see a great deal of significance once you learn to shoot with either one. It is a lot like the standard shaft/low deflection shaft debates. Either can work extremely well, eiher is frustrating when you aren't used to using it.

Hu, I don't know why you're focusing on bridging at the pivot point. That was only one of the methods for getting the cue's pivot point on the correct line (i.e., it's already there). Of course, the correct line is the one also adjusted for swerve, which works against squirt. Pure parallel english works when swerve more or less exactly compensates for squirt. Most of us probably set up and maybe adjust our speed to compensate for both simultaneously.

Jim

 

[Jal]

Hi Jim,

thanks for this great information.

You're most welcome.

It is the background why I said, a straight stroke is far more important than most other issues, and I am convinced also much more important than a "consistant" stroke. (Important to give the balls the direction you want to have.)

There are many situations where you have to play with different lengths of the bridge, meassure "B" in your explanations. If your stroke is not straight you will have far more problems in pocketing because of wrong pivot results caused by different bridge lengths.

I seem to become most painfully aware of your point on those long straight ones (although long cut shots are even more unforgiving).

Jim

 

[ShootingArts]

Not at all, only that the cue's intrinsic pivot lie on the line going through the center of the CB in the intended direction of the CB. That's what the other two methods "Parallel Shift with Bridge Pivot" and ""Parallel Shift with Grip Pivot" accomplish: getting the squirt pivot point of the cue on that line when you're not bridging at the pivot point.

I do it by feel all the time, for better or worse.

Hu, I don't know why you're focusing on bridging at the pivot point. That was only one of the methods for getting the cue's pivot point on the correct line (i.e., it's already there). Of course, the correct line is the one also adjusted for swerve, which works against squirt. Pure parallel english works when swerve more or less exactly compensates for squirt. Most of us probably set up and maybe adjust our speed to compensate for both simultaneously.

Jim

Jim,

I did reaiize after posting that you were both saying something a bit different, that the cue has to cross the centerline of the cue ball, I assume in reference to the ghost ball, at a certain point. This might indeed be necessary to make the cue ball follow the path to the object ball that you desire but it isn't necessary to pocket the object ball or have the cue ball take the path desired afterwards to get shape on the next ball.

That last sentence seems to be our real area of disagreement. I used parallel english for years without any pivot. Shot my way to what I think most would have to grant was legitimate shortstop level, nobody had to like bearding me in my den on a given night. With parallel english used like I did any pivot point as you use the term would be purely accidental and might be yards in front of or behind the cue stick.

Without adjustments with backhand english the pivot point is at the bridge. With front hand english it is at the grip hand when addressing the cue ball. Finally, with parallel english no pivot point exists.

I was taking some pictures for an article earlier and while I had the camera and background set up I took a quick snap of the lid of a jar and some ink pens that roughly represent what I am saying. The arrow through the lid represents the centerline of the cue ball. The black tipped pen represents the final path of the cue stick using parallel english, the red tipped pen represents the path using front hand english, and the blue tipped pen represents the path using back hand english. Of course the locations of the contact on the cue ball while they are in the proper order are further apart than they would be in actual play, this is a very crude picture put together in a couple minutes. The point is that each of these angles can easily be used with only very slight adjustments, keeping basically these same angles,(to be clear, the angles initially created by front hand, backhand and parallel english, not these ink pens!) and both pocket the object ball and get whatever shape needed to make the next shot.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you were both saying ... that the cue has to cross the centerline of the cue ball, I assume in reference to the ghost ball, at a certain point. This might indeed be necessary to make the cue ball follow the path to the object ball that you desire but it isn't necessary to pocket the object ball

How can the CB not follow the desired path to the OB yet still make the shot? The spin is the same, so there's no difference in the amount of throw...

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

How can the CB not follow the desired path to the OB yet still make the shot? The spin is the same, so there's no difference in the amount of throw...

pj
chgo

PJ,

I didn't say the cue ball didn't hit the object ball in the same place. There are an infinite number of paths the cue ball can take getting to that point. The belief that there is only one path to heaven is basically what this discussion is about.

To split hairs just a little, the spin isn't actually the same. Different angles or different contact points result in different spin. Everything is slightly different using the various englishes. The thing to understand is that they aren't different in effectiveness, in as much as all can give perfectly acceptable results.

I'm planning to piddle around some in the morning, just confirming what I already know since I haven't heard what you want me to try yet,

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ,

I didn't say the cue ball didn't hit the object ball in the same place. There are an infinite number of paths the cue ball can take getting to that point.

Not with the same spin.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

same contact point means different spin

Not with the same spin.

pj
chgo

Things like your last one liner are starting to get pretty pointless to reply to. However if we hit a cue ball in exactly the same spot using back hand or parallel english the shot with backhand english will have greater spin. The force is acting further out from the center axis of the cue ball. However, there is the other matter also, since one force is acting further out from the axis of the cue ball than the other it is also going to send it in a different direction.

If by some fluke we used the perfect slightly different offsets to get exactly the same spin with back hand and parallel english we would still get different results because the line of force relative to the mass of the cue ball is more important than a minor difference or lack of difference in the speed of the spin.

The same spin RPM when the cue ball is hit at two different angles will not give the same path.

Hu

 

[Williebetmore]

Jim,

I did reaiize after posting that you were both saying something a bit different, that the cue has to cross the centerline of the cue ball, I assume in reference to the ghost ball, at a certain point. This might indeed be necessary to make the cue ball follow the path to the object ball that you desire but it isn't necessary to pocket the object ball or have the cue ball take the path desired afterwards to get shape on the next ball.

That last sentence seems to be our real area of disagreement. I used parallel english for years without any pivot. Shot my way to what I think most would have to grant was legitimate shortstop level, nobody had to like bearding me in my den on a given night. With parallel english used like I did any pivot point as you use the term would be purely accidental and might be yards in front of or behind the cue stick.

Without adjustments with backhand english the pivot point is at the bridge. With front hand english it is at the grip hand when addressing the cue ball. Finally, with parallel english no pivot point exists.

I was taking some pictures for an article earlier and while I had the camera and background set up I took a quick snap of the lid of a jar and some ink pens that roughly represent what I am saying. The arrow through the lid represents the centerline of the cue ball. The black tipped pen represents the final path of the cue stick using parallel english, the red tipped pen represents the path using front hand english, and the blue tipped pen represents the path using back hand english. Of course the locations of the contact on the cue ball while they are in the proper order are further apart than they would be in actual play, this is a very crude picture put together in a couple minutes. The point is that each of these angles can easily be used with only very slight adjustments, keeping basically these same angles,(to be clear, the angles initially created by front hand, backhand and parallel english, not these ink pens!) and both pocket the object ball and get whatever shape needed to make the next shot.

Hu

Hu,
You should realize that even though the tip strikes the same actual point on the cue ball, the 3 pens indicate totally different contact points with respect to the true center of the cue ball on each of these three shots.

The contact points look the same to the shooter, but if you orient yourself along the line of the cue, they are totally different with respect to the center of the cue ball. Orient yourself like a little man sitting on the cue tip, facing directly into the object ball; and you will see that facing into the cue ball you are striking a different point with respect to the center (the center of the cue ball will be at a different place for all 3 angles - draw a line perpendicular to each cue to find out how far each of the three contact points is from the true center of the cue ball).

The path you indicate for backhand English is farther from the true center than the other 2 (probably why you achieve more English with that process). These are not in any way, shape, or form the same shots. The cue is moving in a different direction in each shot, so the center of the cue ball is different in each of the 3 shots.

Your backhand English path is the same as a parallel English path if the shooter would just set himself up differently (so that at impact his cue is following the same path as your backhand English example).

The difference is in aiming and setup, not in physics. Your results are completely valid; but your assertion that these 3 paths yield the same contact point is wrong (even though they touch the exact same place on the cue ball). Perhaps you guys are all correct .

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Things like your last one liner are starting to get pretty pointless to reply to.

We're both saying the same things over and over, so it's pointless to be long winded about it.

Sorry, I haven't been able to do your test yet (I started once but was interrupted). I'll try to get to it in the next few work days.

I have a test for you to try, but I have to figure out the best way to describe it here.

pj
chgo

 

[John Brumback]

Then I have a question,
Since you swing it so straight, is this aspect of play Why your bank game is so consistent? I would think lessening the variables within the shot would give that player a definite advantage.

Because when we had our match play in Ohio, the break you had could Never be improved, you had the Break On A String. Every break of yours in every game (and you won 11-9) I think, whitey went vertical came down bump/bump EVERY frickin' time right around the spot area, was surprised you didn't break the light a couple times. Seeing someone play like this is Very intimidating. It reminded me of Wade Crane at the time but more consistent.

Probably but mostly due to my method that I use when banking.The cue angle as it goes into or through the shot has alot to do with it also.I try to keep my cue level unless the shot calls for me to manipulate my stroke angle which can have a dramatic effect on the outcome of the shot.That's another reason you need to have a bunch of different bridges to use.Most people that I work with have some kind of a jacked up cueing action that I have to fix and then I have show them how to use different bridges before we move on to playing good pool. Thanks for the good words. John B.

Tip:spend more time practicing and less time thinking and worrying about the whys and watch great players very very close.Oh and practice alot,hehe.

 

[Jal]

Jim,

I did reaiize after posting that you were both saying something a bit different, that the cue has to cross the centerline of the cue ball, I assume in reference to the ghost ball, at a certain point. This might indeed be necessary to make the cue ball follow the path to the object ball that you desire but it isn't necessary to pocket the object ball or have the cue ball take the path desired afterwards to get shape on the next ball.

That last sentence seems to be our real area of disagreement. I used parallel english for years without any pivot. Shot my way to what I think most would have to grant was legitimate shortstop level, nobody had to like bearding me in my den on a given night. With parallel english used like I did any pivot point as you use the term would be purely accidental and might be yards in front of or behind the cue stick.

Without adjustments with backhand english the pivot point is at the bridge. With front hand english it is at the grip hand when addressing the cue ball. Finally, with parallel english no pivot point exists.

I was taking some pictures for an article earlier and while I had the camera and background set up I took a quick snap of the lid of a jar and some ink pens that roughly represent what I am saying. The arrow through the lid represents the centerline of the cue ball. The black tipped pen represents the final path of the cue stick using parallel english, the red tipped pen represents the path using front hand english, and the blue tipped pen represents the path using back hand english. Of course the locations of the contact on the cue ball while they are in the proper order are further apart than they would be in actual play, this is a very crude picture put together in a couple minutes. The point is that each of these angles can easily be used with only very slight adjustments, keeping basically these same angles,(to be clear, the angles initially created by front hand, backhand and parallel english, not these ink pens!) and both pocket the object ball and get whatever shape needed to make the next shot.

Hu

Hu, with this post and then #257, I get what your saying, and agree (for what it's worth). It is possible to shoot the same object ball into the same pocket with any one of the three orientations schematically illustrated in your picture.

If a cue's intrinsic pivot point is 10" from the tip, with an apparent tip offset of 1/4R (half of max english), the difference in the cueball's initial direction, comparing parallel vs. backhand english, would be about 1.44 degrees. With a CB-OB separation of 18", this, by itself, without swerve compensation, would be the difference between a 20 degree cut and a 33 degree cut! Obviously, the amount of swerve (which one amongst your many paths) is crucial.

Our point (at least mine) would be that IF you were consciously thinking about the cueball's initial direction, having already sized up the amount of swerve, you would then want the cue's intrinsic pivot point lying on the line going through the center of the cueball in that direction (whether you thought about it or not and however you got it there). However, I think you're using the terms "backhand english," "parallel english" and "fronthand english" as defined relative to, say, the cueball-ghostball line, rather than the CB's initial/desired direction off the tip. Without getting into who's right or wrong, I believe that's been the major source of our mutual confusion or disagreement.

Or, I'm full of it...either way.

Jim