Is dropping your elbow wrong?

Flex

Flex

Banger
Silver Member
It seems there's some controversy on this. There are those who say "Thou shalt not drop thy elbow!" I've been told that the BCA officially teaches this, and lessons I took from a BCA certified teacher some time ago may be evidence of that, as that's what he tried to drill into me.

However, I've heard that a good number of professional players do indeed drop their elbows at times. Case in point, this past Thursday, Mike Davis played in the First Break Billiards weekly 9 ball tournament in Sterling, VA. I carefully watched this specific aspect of his stroke for more than 15 minutes, while he was breaking and running on a practice table. Someone there told me Davis was told that with his stroke he'd never amount to much. Surprise, surprise, he's one of the dominating forces in the Mid Atlantic region, and plays in the IPT. And guess what? On EVERY shot he took that I saw, he dropped his elbow, and quite a bit too.

What's the verdict? Is dropping one's elbow a virtue or a vice? Just because some do it and others don't, is that a reason for such controversy?

Flex
 
The main reason most of us teach the "no drop" concept, is to allow players to build a more consistent repeatable stroke. The controversy mostly is based on when the 'drop' occurs, and how radical it is. You can drop the elbow before you stroke the CB, as you stroke the CB, or after you stroke the CB. Anytime before or during the stroke can interfere with allowing a very accurate hit on the CB...which, of course, may put unintentional spin on the shot...which can cause a miss on the OB, or less accurate position on the CB afterwards. If you watch the pros closely, that do drop their elbows, most do it after contact with the CB, which has little effect on the outcome.
Also, many will drop the elbow only a little bit (2-4"), which also dramatically decreases the overall loss of accuracy. The pinned elbow technique is the most practical, easy-to-learn process to develop a better, long-term, more accurate stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Flex said:
It seems there's some controversy on this. There are those who say "Thou shalt not drop thy elbow!" I've been told that the BCA officially teaches this, and lessons I took from a BCA certified teacher some time ago may be evidence of that, as that's what he tried to drill into me.
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Although it isn't a foul, and it isn't "wrong," I think the majority of players will do better not dropping their elbow for the majority of shots.

For power shots, however, I think that it's tougher and possibly more painful to not drop the elbow. The problem comes if your accuracy and repeatability is affected by the tip rising during the elbow drop.



Someone there told me Davis was told that with his stroke he'd never amount to much.
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Mike is unique, obviously. His main pivot is at his shoulder, which is why you see his elbow dropping. It works for him, so it can't be wrong. I wouldn't emulate it, but that's just me. There's another very good player that shoots exactly like him. Probably from the same area.

Fred
 
Scott Lee said:
The main reason most of us teach the "no drop" concept, is to allow players to build a more consistent repeatable stroke. The controversy mostly is based on when the 'drop' occurs, and how radical it is. You can drop the elbow before you stroke the CB, as you stroke the CB, or after you stroke the CB. Anytime before or during the stroke can interfere with allowing a very accurate hit on the CB...which, of course, may put unintentional spin on the shot...which can cause a miss on the OB, or less accurate position on the CB afterwards. If you watch the pros closely, that do drop their elbows, most do it after contact with the CB, which has little effect on the outcome.
Also, many will drop the elbow only a little bit (2-4"), which also dramatically decreases the overall loss of accuracy. The pinned elbow technique is the most practical, easy-to-learn process to develop a better, long-term, more accurate stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I'd say that Davis's elbow drop probably comes at the end of his stroke, and it is nothing small. Obviously I didn't get a ruler out to check on it :D but I'd estimate it could well be 6 inches on a stroke shot.

For what it's worth, Larry Schwartz drops it quite a bit too. He may or may not realize he's doing it, and I don't know what he thinks about it, but dropping his elbow, shooting with back hand english, etc. etc., shooting by feel and so on seems to be his game.

Flex
 
Scott Lee said:
The main reason most of us teach the "no drop" concept, is to allow players to build a more consistent repeatable stroke. The controversy mostly is based on when the 'drop' occurs, and how radical it is.
Click to expand...

The consistent, repeatable stroke is very important, no doubt, for many, many shots.

Speaking with Larry Schwartz about WAYS to stroke the cue ball was very enlightening. As it was with Don "The Preacher" Feeney. I think there are a lot of secrets dealing with certain ways to stroke the ball that aren't commented upon very much, for it's difficult to put some of those things into words and showing how to do something can be the ticket.

Don showed me about 6 different kinds of strokes, and demonstrated the advantages of each. At a certain level of play, the "consistent" stuff may no longer be the way to go. At least that's one idea I picked up from both Larry and Don.

Flex <--- likes to think outside the box
 
Flex said:
I'd say that Davis's elbow drop probably comes at the end of his stroke, and it is nothing small. Obviously I didn't get a ruler out to check on it :D but I'd estimate it could well be 6 inches on a stroke shot.

For what it's worth, Larry Schwartz drops it quite a bit too. He may or may not realize he's doing it, and I don't know what he thinks about it, but dropping his elbow, shooting with back hand english, etc. etc., shooting by feel and so on seems to be his game.

Flex
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Well, I have noticed that a lot of pros drop their elbows. Steve Mizerak is a good example of this.

As long as you can do something consistently it can't be wrong. However it is easier to develop a repeatable stroke while keeping your elbow fixed on most shots.

I suspect that many of the pros developed their stroke and much of their fundamentals before consulting a mentor to take them to the next level. This would explain why there are so many varieties of styles, stances and strokes in pool. However in Britain many of snooker players stand and stroke the cue fairly similairily, since they tend to get coaching early in their development.
 
Cameron Smith said:
However in Britain many of snooker players stand and stroke the cue fairly similairily, since they tend to get coaching early in their development.
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Yup. Absolutely. You'll also notice that nearly all of them drop their elbow on firm shots. Some a little... some a lot. This from collectively the most disciplined of the cueists.

Fred
 
trying to rebuild my game

I'm trying to rebuild my game and I thought I would go back to square one and try to correct all of my "flaws" that aren't the same as recommended by most instructors. Then I started watching a lot of tape. What I found was that a lot of the best do drop the elbow prior to cue ball contact. Many also strike the cue ball with the forearm forward of vertical most of the time.

Far from being the rule, the pro's with text book technique are the exceptions. I still think certain things need to be drilled in but I'm not nearly as convinced that I need to fight for perfect form and stroke as usually defined.

Hu

Flex said:
It seems there's some controversy on this. There are those who say "Thou shalt not drop thy elbow!" I've been told that the BCA officially teaches this, and lessons I took from a BCA certified teacher some time ago may be evidence of that, as that's what he tried to drill into me.

However, I've heard that a good number of professional players do indeed drop their elbows at times. Case in point, this past Thursday, Mike Davis played in the First Break Billiards weekly 9 ball tournament in Sterling, VA. I carefully watched this specific aspect of his stroke for more than 15 minutes, while he was breaking and running on a practice table. Someone there told me Davis was told that with his stroke he'd never amount to much. Surprise, surprise, he's one of the dominating forces in the Mid Atlantic region, and plays in the IPT. And guess what? On EVERY shot he took that I saw, he dropped his elbow, and quite a bit too.

What's the verdict? Is dropping one's elbow a virtue or a vice? Just because some do it and others don't, is that a reason for such controversy?

Flex
Click to expand...
 
Cornerman said:
Yup. Absolutely. You'll also notice that nearly all of them drop their elbow on firm shots. Some a little... some a lot. This from collectively the most disciplined of the cueists.

Fred
Click to expand...

Ronnie O'Sullivan is a good example of this. So is Steve Davis. Both great styles to copy.
 
one of the things Mark Wilson told me during our lesson was to not spill the cup of coffee sitting on your elbow during your stroke. in other words, if you drop your elbow, the coffee will spill. so i assume Mr. Wilson favors not dropping the elbow.

however, i also got the impression from him that if a little coffee "sloshed out" during the stroke that was ok. meaning, i assume, that a small dip was ok. perhaps Mr. Betmore can enlighten us here on what Mr. Wilson advocates?

also, a few years ago i was "scooping" the cue ball off the table more than i should. Tom "Dr Cue" Rossman, upon watching me, said i was dropping the elbow too much and therefore "lifting" the cue ball. he held onto my elbow area for a few shots, and i stopped doing it.

just my $.02
DCP
 
I've tried to instruct a few beginners and often they have a tendency to drop the elbow, using the whole arm for the swing, meaning their cue tip dips and rises very dramatically. For them, to be told to keep the elbow high is very helpful.

But for anyone who has hit a lot of balls, I don't think hitting the CB where intended, or stroking along the line as required is that difficult, whether they drop their elbow or not. In fact I think it is preferable to allow the elbow to drop as required for most shots.

Afterall, a truly parallel stroke is impossible if the elbow maintains its position exactly. It just takes a bit of practice to develop the timing of the elbow rise and fall to accommodate a smooth and parallel stroke.

Colin
 
ShootingArts said:
Far from being the rule, the pro's with text book technique are the exceptions. I still think certain things need to be drilled in but I'm not nearly as convinced that I need to fight for perfect form and stroke as usually defined.

Hu
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Perfect "form and stroke" are beautiful to watch. However, watching quite a few top players and observing closely their form and stroke make it quite plain that there are many, many ways of playing.

One instructor I know suggests several different stances and strokes, and identifies who the world champions are who had those stances and strokes. His point is that so long as you are comfortable in your stance, and stroke straight when you want to, can see the shot and get position, that is the way to go.

I saw a player the other day who shot a long, oblique cut shot down the rail with a drag draw stroke, by the time the cue ball got to the object ball it had a gentle natural forward roll on it, and the object ball rolled three diamonds down into the corner pocket. Someone watching the shot said something like, "What the *)-@ !" and another simply said "good shot." First time I saw that shot. What the shot/stroke the "right" one? I don't know, but the ball potted and the fellow got shape for the next ball. Seeing that shot was worth the price of a good lesson.

By the way, that fellow dropped his elbow on the shot. Was that necessary?

Who knows...

Flex
 
My .02

cents would be: (almost 45 years playing):

Yes, it is a vice Yes, there are exceptions, but DON'T ASSUME A NEW STANDARD from the miniscule percentage of players that do it. I would venture to say that their stroke mechanic flaw (dropping elbow and upper arm, and usually leads to shoulder movement) COMES BACK to haunt them on other shots, which might help explain that they are where they are in the food chain.

I can think of a few shots where it might bite them in the butt, like muscle
long shots where the cue ball is on the rail, etc..

It's like your condoning someone that COULD NOT PERFECT THE right mechanics, but learned to overcome their inability, and since they did it, it must be okay for everyone to do it now. They had a problem, they learned to solve it in their own way, BUT WHY EVEN HAVE THE PROBLEM TO SOLVE IN THE FIRST PLACE? See my point?
 
Snapshot9 said:
cents would be: (almost 45 years playing):

Yes, it is a vice Yes, there are exceptions, but DON'T ASSUME A NEW STANDARD from the miniscule percentage of players that do it. I would venture to say that their stroke mechanic flaw (dropping elbow and upper arm, and usually leads to shoulder movement) COMES BACK to haunt them on other shots, which might help explain that they are where they are in the food chain.

I can think of a few shots where it might bite them in the butt, like muscle
long shots where the cue ball is on the rail, etc..

It's like your condoning someone that COULD NOT PERFECT THE right mechanics, but learned to overcome their inability, and since they did it, it must be okay for everyone to do it now. They had a problem, they learned to solve it in their own way, BUT WHY EVEN HAVE THE PROBLEM TO SOLVE IN THE FIRST PLACE? See my point?
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Thanks Snapshot for the very interesting post.

My question is why you consider the elbow drop to necessarily be a "problem to solve in the first place."

I had an instructor who told me I needed to be angled at 45 degrees to stroke properly. When he told me that it really did help me. Later on though I went through Bert Kinister's Advanced Fundamentals tape on how to align the body, depending on one's body shape. That was a further refinement. But later on I came to realize that there are many times when adopting that stance won't work, or at least not easily, for instance when shooting over a ball that is in the middle of the table. I had to adapt to many different situations where the "correct" stance or alignment or stroke wouldn't work, at least not for me. My point is there are so many different shots that come up that the general rules are just that: general rules for the majority of shots. But when the time comes for a different, tougher shot, those general rules can bring defeat, and at that moment improvisation may be called for.

As time goes on, grooving the "feel" required for a specific shot has become very important, at least for me. If that means dropping the elbow is called for, what usually will happen is that it will just happen, not as a premeditated thing, but something that over time has been seared into my brain as the way to pot the ball and get shape for the next.

Flex
 
The "wrong" is missing your point of aim on the cue ball. If not dropping your elbow causes that, don't drop your elbow.
 
Understanding ...

Flex said:
Thanks Snapshot for the very interesting post.

My question is why you consider the elbow drop to necessarily be a "problem to solve in the first place."

I had an instructor who told me I needed to be angled at 45 degrees to stroke properly. When he told me that it really did help me. Later on though I went through Bert Kinister's Advanced Fundamentals tape on how to align the body, depending on one's body shape. That was a further refinement. But later on I came to realize that there are many times when adopting that stance won't work, or at least not easily, for instance when shooting over a ball that is in the middle of the table. I had to adapt to many different situations where the "correct" stance or alignment or stroke wouldn't work, at least not for me. My point is there are so many different shots that come up that the general rules are just that: general rules for the majority of shots. But when the time comes for a different, tougher shot, those general rules can bring defeat, and at that moment improvisation may be called for.

As time goes on, grooving the "feel" required for a specific shot has become very important, at least for me. If that means dropping the elbow is called for, what usually will happen is that it will just happen, not as a premeditated thing, but something that over time has been seared into my brain as the way to pot the ball and get shape for the next.

Flex
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I understand what you are saying and agree somewhat. When the cue ball is 'inland' or shooting over a ball, of course you have to adjust. What I was referring is the stroke mechanics for a normal shot that one can reach without a problem in doing so. You are familiar with the saying, 'The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line', well, in applying this same logic to sports and excellence of such, the less motion to accomplish the goal, the better, or in otherwords, it is easier to attain excellence with less simplified motion, than with extraneous motions not needed in the first place. Just for arguments sake, apply this problem to Golf, now, do you think moving something extra, or dipping something extra, in a golf swing is the way to excellence, I don't, and I serously doubt whether Tiger would either.
Part of the problem lies with when someone plays with a 'work-around' stroke (for lack of a better term), they have to make that slight adjustment on different type of shots, not just aiming the shot, but the way they deliver, and perhaps have to, or unconciously, make additional motions at the end of the stroke. Well, because of their work-around stroke, they may have to do different things on various types of shots that someone with a good stroke doesn't need to do. So, the problems with adjusting become more complex with the variety of shots a player has to shoot.
A real good player can watch someone's stroke, and pretty much tell you, about what speed they play, notice if they do anything they shouldn't, and probably tell if and when they will ever choke, and how much pressure is needed before they do choke.
 
Think of the cue as a lever, and your bridge as a fulcrum. When you drop your elbow, the tip raises.

If you drop your elbow after contact, it keeps the tip from grinding into the cloth and bending the shaft (look at Tom Cruise's break in The Color of Money.)

Many good players drop their elbow before contact. They just have to adjust their practice strokes by aiming lower.

When you see a player who is aiming super low on their practice strokes (sometimes you are sure they will miscue, but they don't), they are dropping their elbow and delivering the tip to the ball higher than it appears.

Is this wrong? No. It works for many of the Philippino players among others.

But it is better to break this habit if you can. The earlier the better.
 
Cuaba said:
Think of the cue as a lever, and your bridge as a fulcrum. When you drop your elbow, the tip raises.
Click to expand...

Depends on where in the stroke (as you mentioned) you drop your elbow. If you drop your elbow correctly, this keeps the tip going in a straight line. Keeping the elbow completely stationary during a stroke actually causes the tip to dip naturally during a follow through. Elbow drop at the correct time causes it to continue at that point in a straight line. I use a bottle to pratice my stroke, and this forces me to drop my elbow when the follow through goes past about 11-12 inches.

Every pro pool player I have ever heard of says that a long follow through is key to playing good pool.. It is also the key to good golf strokes, good batting in baseball, good shooting in basketball, bowling, javelin, discus, shuffleboard, etc.

It seems to me that the longer the follow through in any sport, the better. In a golfer's swing, the follow through continues until the club shaft lightly taps the player on the neck or shoulder, (I'm not a golfer) if I am not mistaken? The follow through continues until it is physically impossible to follow through the ball any more. Doesn't the same thing happen with a good baseball swing? I would assume a perfect bowling swing realeases the ball at the last possible microsecond before the bowling ball reaches too far in an upward arc. In a basketball shot, the hand supports the ball while the arm supports. The "follow through here is the proverbial "wave good bye", again, the hand follows as far through the basketball as possible.

I think it is hogwash to say that "the fewer moving parts, the better" in a pool player's stroke. Says who? A golfer uses many, many more muscles in a stroke than a pool player does. Does this mean that golfers would do even better if they used less muscles than Tiger does in his swing? I doubt it.

An example of this is a technique that a lot of pro pool players use to get more english out of nearly straight in shots. They line the shot up with a center ball stroke, then they "veer" their tip on contact or slightly before contact with the cueball, towards the side they want english applied. Earl does it so well, that he barely hits a ball, and it gets an extra 2 rails. The "traditional" stroke does not allow one to make shots like this. We're always told "veering" our tip is badddddd.

If we can agree that the longer a person's follow through, the better, then I would go so far as to say, properly executed, the elbow drop is necessary on a certain subset of shots. I think the players who make those shots without elbow drop are the ones adjusting. They are not delivering the tip through the ball as fully as is humanly possible.

"Almost" (my gawd, let me put that in here, lest someone be a forum detective) every pro I have watched on my many Accustats videos uses elbow drop on certain shots. "Almost" all of them have it in their arsenal, and use it very well. It simply allows one to get more movement and action on the cueball with less force. Just like a long follow through does on any ball you are trying to control in any sport.

Russ
 
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