Is it the Shaft or the Tip?

BC21

Poolology
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No....the shot Andrun posted isn't the shot. Use draw. It's a hell of a stroke shot.
 

BC21

Poolology
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I can not vision the shot...someone help.

It is NOT the shot AndRun diagrammed. That's a simple inside follow shot.

The shot is a draw with inside spin. It's similar to the shot I shoot here, but with enough draw to pull the cb to the other side of that side pocket and around 3 rails to end up on the same end of the table where the ob was pocketed. In this video I show how the shot can be used with less draw to get position on the 8 ball.

 
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AndRun

Registered
The two cf cues I used were 11.8. My Mezz is a 12.5.

So we get the same results, as far as it being more difficult with a slightly thicker shaft.

It's a cool shot to know. Not necessarily drawing it around the table, but hitting the shot and bringing the cb to the opposite side rail with all that spin to get it back up table.... comes in handy sometimes.
Of them all, Meucci CF Pro felt like it requires the least effort, even compared to the other 11.8 tips like the Revo and Z2. Just my personal feeling though. If you get to try the Meucci shaft and came to similar conclusion, it might further reaffirm your findings.

I agree it's a cool shot. I like that setup for spin practice or as pregame warm-up. Another one that I like, but more for top spin... see attachment.
 

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Ģüśţāṿ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From my experience, the Mezz WX700 is one of the least "powerful" shafts out there....certainly not saying that as a bad thing as it my current main shaft. However I get more action with almost any other shaft I use, even on the same butt and same table. My theory is that it's primarily due to this shafts construction - the thin shaft wall (foam filled core) and the pvc like ferrule just don't produce good energy transfer unlike many other shafts, but rather mezz focus on consistency, which they do a very good job of.

So to answer your original questions....its the shaft, not the tip (in my opinion of course).
 

AndRun

Registered
It is NOT the shot AndRun diagrammed. That's a simple inside follow shot.

The shot is a draw with inside spin. It's similar to the shot I shoot here, but with enough draw to pull the cb to the other side of that side pocket and around 3 rails to end up on the same end of the table where the ob was pocketed. In this video I show how the shot can be used with less draw to get position on the 8 ball.

What you showed is a hell of a stroke.
But I'm not sure if that would bring the cue ball to the corner pocket though.
Maybe doable with a different tone of helluva stroke? 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

BC21

Poolology
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Silver Member
What you showed is a hell of a stroke.
But I'm not sure if that would bring the cue ball to the corner pocket though.
Maybe doable with a different tone of helluva stroke? 🤷🏻‍♂️

It definitely takes a stroke. I was able to do it with my Mezz when I played with a hard tip. But with a soft or medium tip it's damn difficult to get the cb all the way around. Someone with a faster stroke could pull it off better. With the carbon fiber shafts I found it much easier to do.

Here's 3 attempts tonight with my Mezz....

 
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Floydbeth

Registered
It definitely takes a stroke. I was able to do it with my Mezz when I played with a hard tip. But with a soft or medium tip it's damn difficult to get the cb all the way around. Someone with a faster stroke could pull it off better. With the carbon fiber shafts I found it much easier to do.

Here's 3 attempts tonight with my Mezz....

Great post, with good response , learning alot about tips and shafts. You mentioned you had the 900 also was this the shaft on video? Just curious why you don't like cf shafts. Maybe try ignite with 12.2 mm tip? I was using ex pro for a while now ignite been switching back and forth. Wish i have stroke like yours maybe someday. Thanks for the videos , find them very helpful. Floyd
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Great post, with good response , learning alot about tips and shafts. You mentioned you had the 900 also was this the shaft on video? Just curious why you don't like cf shafts. Maybe try ignite with 12.2 mm tip? I was using ex pro for a while now ignite been switching back and forth. Wish i have stroke like yours maybe someday. Thanks for the videos , find them very helpful. Floyd

Thanks! That was my 700 shaft. I'll try it my 900 this evening.

I love the way cf shafts hit. I don't like the solid black. I would probably invest in one if I could find one that matched a maple color.

The stroke will come as you keep playing. Just make sure to follow all the way through the cb every time. When the knuckle of my right thumb hits my chest, I know I stroked the shot pretty well.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks! That was my 700 shaft. I'll try it my 900 this evening.

I love the way cf shafts hit. I don't like the solid black. I would probably invest in one if I could find one that matched a maple color.

The stroke will come as you keep playing. Just make sure to follow all the way through the cb every time. When the knuckle of my right thumb hits my chest, I know I stroked the shot pretty well.
CF is BLACK. Only way to color one is to paint it and you don't want that.
 

BC21

Poolology
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Silver Member
CF is BLACK. Only way to color one is to paint it and you don't want that.

Yep. I didn't mean I'd buy one if I could find a maple color... I meant I would buy one if someone could manufacture one that is maple colored, a hybrid mix of cf and something that can have color.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is from personal observation. Any critics will be welcome as positive feedback.

The tip diameter and cloth quality usually matter most when it comes to quality of spin. So if your observation is based off different tables, then it may be incomplete.

Tip hardness too but to a lesser degree.
Weight of butt and weight distribution of the shaft also play a minor role.
So does stroke quality.
Minor as they are, these are what I can think of that would affect spin at noticeable level.
This is mostly baloney (with some validity given to the table cloth and conditions...high humidity makes it more difficult to draw with anything)! Tip size, shape, hardness, etc have very small effects on draw. Being able to draw easily and effectively is 99% about having a quality stroke. Tip offset for maximum draw will be the same, whether shooting with an 11mm tip or a 13mm tip. Tips play differently, and your personal observations may hold little weight in actual response.

Scott Lee
 

chenjy9

Member
I don't have a CF tip, but I found it much easier to get good draw action going from my McDermott with a 13mm tip (normal maple shaft) to my current Mezz with a 12.5mm tip. That said, my overall draw distance seems roughly the same.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is NOT the shot AndRun diagrammed. That's a simple inside follow shot.

The shot is a draw with inside spin. It's similar to the shot I shoot here, but with enough draw to pull the cb to the other side of that side pocket and around 3 rails to end up on the same end of the table where the ob was pocketed. In this video I show how the shot can be used with less draw to get position on the 8 ball.

i will try the shot.
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is mostly baloney (with some validity given to the table cloth and conditions...high humidity makes it more difficult to draw with anything)! Tip size, shape, hardness, etc have very small effects on draw. Being able to draw easily and effectively is 99% about having a quality stroke. Tip offset for maximum draw will be the same, whether shooting with an 11mm tip or a 13mm tip. Tips play differently, and your personal observations may hold little weight in actual response.

Scott Lee

When I changed from a hard tip to a soft tip, after several years of using hard tips, I had to shoot most draw shots a bit harder. In other words, I could put a hard tip on my mezz wx700 shaft and get more draw action than I'm getting with the softer tip I'm using now.

I realize tip hardness has nothing to do with the amount of spin generated. But a harder tip sends
the cb off faster than a soft tip. So when using the same stroke speed for different tips, a harder tip allows the cb to retain its spin longer. That's why when I switched to a soft tip, I had to apply more effort, more stroke speed, to generate the same draw I used to generate when I was using the harder tip. It's a trade off to consider I guess.
 

chenjy9

Member
I see a lot of opinions about tips and what's better or worse and realized that I have never changed the tip that my cues have come with. I have always had the opinion that if it can hold chalk and is properly rounded, then it's fine. That opinion is probably wrong and may explain why some cues I just never liked shooting with.
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
I see a lot of opinions about tips and what's better or worse and realized that I have never changed the tip that my cues have come with. I have always had the opinion that if it can hold chalk and is properly rounded, then it's fine. That opinion is probably wrong and may explain why some cues I just never liked shooting with.

There's nothing wrong with that opinion. It all depends on what you get used to and what what feels good to you.

There are tradeoffs to consider when deciding to change tips. Softer tips require more effort (speed) to achieve the same amount of action that a harder tip can generate. But harder tips can miscue more often when using a lot of spin on softer/finesse type shots, because hard tips just don't hold chalk as well as soft tips.

I've heard players say that harder tips are better for rotation games, while softer tips are better for one pocket or straight pool.
 

BC21

Poolology
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Silver Member
So, reading through all the posts, it looks like my "tip or shaft" question has been resolved.

I first learned this shot several years ago when I was playing with a hard tip - Talisman Pro. It was not too difficult to do back then. But over the years I've played with several different tips from hard to soft, and I've been sticking with soft or medium soft for a while now. Also I've had this Mezz cue the whole time.

The answer involves energy transfer. A harder tip transfers more energy. A CF shaft transfers more energy. So when using a non-CF shaft and a softer tip, a faster stroke speed is needed to really get the action I used to be able to get. Of course, I'm 10 years older too, so I'm probably moving slower than I did before also.😕
 

PracticeChampion

Active member
Had a meucci years ago that came with 2 shafts, 12.5 mm and the other I never measured but was definitely in the 11's. The one in 11's had a ton of flex and took English like nothing I've ever seen before. Drawing a cue ball full table + was simple but it was very hard to shoot with because it took so much English. That said I think the flex is what made it take English so easy.
 
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