Is pool dying in the US???

One word of advice for getting a weekly tournament started is to add money.
With added money you will get most the good players in the area to show up -- no need for flyers word will get out. If there is no added money you are counting on just the entry fees for payout that means you need a lot of players. The weaker players will not continually keep coming and entering your tournament and donating their entry fees without some chance of winning a match or two on occasion. It is that simple, people do not like to donate if they do not see a chance of winning something. This leads to handicaps. If you feel you are being jacked up on your handicap the guy running the tournament is probably protecting his customer base.
 
Yes

Pool is dying in the US for for so many factors. First of let me discuss the leagues. Without question they bring in more new people to the sport than anything else. I myself arent a big fan of them because to me the majority are playing pool as a social outting, with no real desire to improve. But they get people playing that otherwise wouldnt so great for the sport I say. The main problem here in regards to pool on the professonal level is money plain and simple. The cost to travel and play in tournaments around the world is more than you will win statistically. Anyone who disagrees try staking a player for a whole year and see where you stand. Another huge factor is no organization here on the pro level. Until we have a organization governing pool here in the US and running a unified tour it will remain where it is. Pool here is dying because of no return on investment. You can see this in the WPBA look how many commitments they currently have. And I hate to say it but looks like the begining of the end for them.
 
One is graded by what they *do* to correct the scene, not by what they say

You win yet again.....

Porcospino:

Although a little on the pointed/corrugated side, Shawn's replies to you were trying to share some valid points.

1. Your post initially did come off as a question, but as it apparently turned out, was not really a question, but more of a statement with an implied/attached plea to the readers as to whether they agree or disagree with your synopsis. It was almost like a plea for a round of "h*ll yeah, I agree with you!" buddy back-patting sessions. Like a "battle cry" or "call to arms" to a legion of troops, troops of which see this on these boards all the time, with none of these "callers to arms" actually stepping up to *do* something about it.

2. Shawn was trying to point out to you that you have to make do with what you have, instead of whining about it. If your area does not have good tournies and/or a good league system, instead of whining about it, what are you yourself *doing* to fix it? Have you tried to start up one of your own (league and/or tourney) to address the problems in your area? *Plenty* of AZB'ers here on this board have done just that -- and even post here to solicit input/criticisms/recommendations from the populace. (Just do a search here on these boards, and you'll see who these members are.) These are people trying to *do something* about the lackluster tourney or league situation in their area, instead of whining about something that will not fix itself. (And no, posting critically here on these boards about the APA, et al., is not going to "rally the troops" to fix the problem. Just do a search on here, and I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion that folks have done this for *years* and nothing's ever come of it.) You are graded for what you *do*, not for what you say. Otherwise, you are just another pundit, and lord knows the world's got enough of those.

3. Posting critically about the U.S. pool scene on a pool/billiards forum, and "rallying the battle cry" about it does absolutely NOTHING for a problem that is now largely economy-fed. (BTW, your post did not break any new ground -- anyone who's been on these boards for a while has seen their fair share of 'em, so when yours came along, it was almost like, "yeah yeah, tell us something we don't already know.") Granted, the pool scene in the U.S. was not exactly spectacular before the economy went into the dumpers, but this is a sport/pastime that is *directly* affected by a poor economy. If people are pinching pennies these days, *of course* leisure activities like going to the pool hall are going to take a hit!

4. "Observing" that pool halls are closing down, action diminishing left and right, leagues suck, tournies suck, pool rooms won't post flyers about events at "other" establishments because they're seen as robbing their own business, et al., and then posting those details here is an exercise in editorializing. In a word? Ranting. Now if you just wanted to bend folks' ears and rant, you should've said so, instead of disguising your post as a plea for opinions. You definitely got some opinions, but it appears that if someone posted something that disagreed with your points, you got all over them, rebutting why that wouldn't work in your area, or why that was wrong, or why that won't change things, etc.

5. Finally, I'm a veteran as well (8 years USN, high technology). Been all over the world, and observed the pool scene in many, many other countries. I'm 43 years old, and I can hit 'em pretty good, if I don't say so myself (133-ball high run in 14.1, and I've been known to put some decent packages together in 9-/10-ball). To back up Shawn's point about the age thing, when I was in my 20s, I was a big subscriber to the "battle cry" movement -- trying to be the "unique" person to create a battle cry that got folks moving. Once some experience and wisdom was attained by putting some years under my hat, it occurred to me that these efforts, although rewarding at the time because it helped me to exercise my writing and pundit chops, were actually futile. Nothing got done. Took me a while to learn that one gets what one puts into something -- if I wanted something to change, *I* had to be the person to architect, plan, initiate, execute, and babysit the process. Only afterwards, when others could come onboard after seeing the positive results, could I take a step back, and *see* what *I* did. No battle cry, just pure execution. "By the happenstance fact of noticing something wrong, one owns the issue of getting it resolved. Battle cries or calls to arms don't count -- they're just noise."

On that note of execution, there are folks doing something about it. Look at Allen Hopkins; at the many fine folks behind the Galveston Classic (of which I'm sure you're seeing posts about); at Greg Sullivan and the fine folks at Diamond; at Corey Harper and the fine folks at Tiger; at the fine folks behind Predator; Justin Collett and the fantastic folks at The Action Report (TAR); Mark Griffin and the BCAPL; ...etc, etc. And although very controversial, at Charlie Williams and Dragon Promotions (some may argue about bringing his name/company up in this respect with the much-discussed controversy, I think he/his company deserves mention for no other reason than to add to the list of folks at least trying to do something about the pool scene).

So to summarize, although some of the responses you've received were, well, shall we say "corrugated" in nature, please take from them the points they're trying to make. You're somewhat new here, so hopefully you've picked up a couple things about stirring the pot without any substance.

Personally, I see that you are quite well-written, able to get his point across succinctly and lucidly. You appear to be a decent writer, and these boards welcome good writers. Hopefully you'll stick around and we'll see more posts from you, with some exercised control.

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
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Pool Rooms are having it tough all over. The economy is down and the first thing that is cut from a family's budget is entertainment.

Rooms don't make the rent from pool players, they make it from customers, you know, the people that have money and jobs.

It is all about expectations. The pool rooms would like to make enough money to offer pool players an added $$$ tournament, but if there isn't any added money... the players just whine about there is 'no money in pool'

Players can improve their skill by playing a lot (that costs a lot of money) or getting a great instructor (sure, it costs money, but to improve, you have to invest time and money) Learn the correct way to practice and compete.

You don't get anything just handed to you, you have to earn it by working for the money and/or the respect. No job, no money, no respect. This is a very tough nut to crack.

Good luck trying to get a hand out from league players too.
 
I generaly don't get involved in these discussions but I do have some things to say in this thread.

The player that walks out the door with their cue tonight, tomorrow, the weekend or next week "I solute you". I don't care if its league play, a tournament, hitting balls with your buddies or whatever brings you out to play. Without a reason to get out and enjoy the game then the game dies, so whatever reason gets you out to play is a good thing.

Today, there are more league players, more tournaments, more regional tours etc..etc..then ever in the history of the game. Whatever level you play at, or whatever level you want to play at then there is something out there for you. There is NO segment or organization of pool that is squashing the other. Players have a choice to do whatever they like in the game, your feet are not bolted to the floor.

The original poster of this thread is on the edge of being a contender in the open level regional tournaments. Its time for you to put the pedal to the medal and practice to compete at that level, and not point a finger at the rest of pool as an excuse. Thats what makes great players my friend, its a personal choice and no player is forced in any 1 direction. Its your choice, there are no excuses in the pool world, thats one thing that will never change. In fact, the pool world will never change, the kid that wants to spend 8 hours a day in the pool room to get better, will do just that. Look at the juniors coming up through the ranks at the very present, I have been around this game for 35 years and have never seen the amount of talent coming up through the juniors as the talent thats out there right now. For instance Landon Shuffett, he will be one of the greatest players the USA ever saw, but he does not have to win at a junior tournament of his age group at the moment.
 
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Like Jay said the "economy" which is a huge factor, I see it with todays society not willing/able to give the time and energy to get better, and if you do theres not much at the end of the rainbow. Nowadays people seem to want things Fast Quick and "click of the mouse" Easy and pool takes a lifetime to develop.
Now as to the room owners that want to keep their players only in their room, that lot is their own breed. Try and tell the golfers they shouldn't play at another links. Also, if there's a tournament elsewhere, players will probably practice MORE at their local room to get prepared.
 
Pool Rooms are having it tough all over. The economy is down and the first thing that is cut from a family's budget is entertainment.

TRUE

Rooms don't make the rent from pool players, they make it from customers, you know, the people that have money and jobs.

TRUE


It is all about expectations. The pool rooms would like to make enough money to offer pool players an added $$$ tournament, but if there isn't any added money... the players just whine about there is 'no money in pool'

TRUE

Players can improve their skill by playing a lot (that costs a lot of money) or getting a great instructor (sure, it costs money, but to improve, you have to invest time and money) Learn the correct way to practice and compete.

You don't get anything just handed to you, you have to earn it by working for the money and/or the respect. No job, no money, no respect. This is a very tough nut to crack.

Good luck trying to get a hand out from league players too.

Think the one point you did not mention bring a story a friend told me who had a Pool Bar in the Valley. He was approached by a TEAM of A- Player who offer to have their TEAM PLAY out of his Bar IF!

The list of if was long, and when the proposition was offer my friend asked what do I get out of the deal.

All the Team could saw was the prestige of have XYZ play out of of his Bar.

They Wanted FREE TABLE TIME.

FREE BCA ENTRY

FREE ROOMS in Sin City for the BCAPL 8 Ball thing

FREE SHIRTS for the BCAPL Thing.

My Friend said NO

He ran his Bar orientated towards working class C Players who Drank, BEER, and HARD LIQUOR, and spent MONEY.

His Bar was a Success with that Business PLAN!!!! TO SELL BOOZE, and have Pool Table for his customers.
 
Is pool struggling??? Yes.... Solution.... Organize a junior league today. Organize a school billiards club..... Get kids involved with pool.... I am starting a high school association here in the houston area.

If you look at most other sports they try to involve youth as much as possible. What did Tiger Woods do last week?? He gave kids free tickets to his tournament. Smart man, pool should take a hint.

Regards,
Marcus
 
Well there has been a "Tiger Woods" Willie Mosconi won 15 out of 16 world tourney's not counting the hundreds of majors in his life. I would have to say Tiger has some things left to prove to be compared to Willie Mosconi.
 
Does anyone else see where I'm coming from???

APA, other leagues, and terrible handicap systems in tournaments are also HUGE problems!!!!!!!!! People are commited to playing on their league team rather than go to a tournament, it's unreal and in most tournaments in my area you have to play perfect to win because you get jacked up so high in their RETARDED handicap system that one or two bad rolls and the other guy runs away from you. I mean at this one place I have to give out the 6 with 3 games on the wire going to 7 to someone who can run 3 or 4 balls with ball in hand!!! I don't even play that good, I have just won it once or twice and got 3rd once. Ever since then everytime I go out there I get steam rolled and HE WONT ADJUST ME!!!!!! Seriously how is anyone supposed to stay interested in the game if everywhere you go there is some beat handicap system that gears for the lower ranked player to win and you are jacked up so high you might as well be donating, then you go to an OPEN event and donate there because you apparently play too good for these people and not good enough to play those people. So tell me, aside from slitting my wrist and bleeding out in the bathroom, how can we expect to keep me and others like me (I'm pretty sure I am not the only person in America with this problem) interested in the sport when we are punished for playing good?? In order for pool to stay alive we need to commit to the right priorities in order to make it happen.

Nice post. I haven't even read any posts past this, but I'm sure many people have defended the leagues. I do not condone any league in which players intentionally lose, and get punished for improving. And, from what I have seen, a few are like this, and one really comes to mind.
 
Well there has been a "Tiger Woods" Willie Mosconi won 15 out of 16 world tourney's not counting the hundreds of majors in his life. I would have to say Tiger has some things left to prove to be compared to Willie Mosconi.

The comparison is being the best in their particular field. Tiger wins more than 25% of all the tournaments he enters on the PGA tour. That is unheard of in professional golf.

I feel comparing them in that respect is not out of line.

BVal
 
the untrained eye

i think one of the main reasons for pool's decline is that to the untrained eye (someone not a pool player) it's not a very exciting or attractive game....the last resurgence that the pool industry had experienced came from "the color of money" not a great film, and as we all know the pool blew in the movie, but what made the film enjoyable were the characters in the movie. unfortunately those characters aren't visible on televised pool, except for earl of course, and i for one would rather much watch two earls play than most other players out there. out of all the matches i've watched in my local hall, the ones i've remembered the most were the heated ones... sometimes ending in contraversy, sometimes not.

There are lots of comparisons of Pool to Golf, unarguably there are some similarities between the two. But the most glaring similarity (before tiger anyways) is that golf (like pool) must be played to be enjoyed. It was difficult for people to be attracted to golf whom had never played the game, and pool is no different.

Now if only we could convince Tiger to start playing pool......hmmm...
 
There is an in house league where I play. It is AMAZING to say the least. It is an 8ball league, handicaps are 2 being the worst 9 being the best. I'm a 6 in league so I'm a fairly good shot. The handicaps are usually nailed right on the button, so all the matches are really fair. We don't do APA at the pool hall I'm from, but the in-house league is great. We have over 40 players in our summer league, which normally we don't have nearly that many. We've picked up many players in the past year, yes we've lost a few due to many reasons. But the interest in pool where I'm from has picked up.

Other pool hall locations around the state of Maine have lost a lot of attraction due to the sport, I've asked why. A few of them told me poker.. Unfortunately people couldn't get enough money games so they started switching over to poker. I like poker don't get me wrong, but I'll never stop playing pool for that reason.

Another reason being that, some pool halls will talk other places down. So people will only start going to one location. I make sure that at least 3 times a month I travel to different locations from Maine to New Hampshire. I'm a regular now at many places they know me too well. But I always talk good about every pool hall and encourage people to try out new places.

My pool hall started losing the regulars due to kids coming in and just raising hell and not really playing too much pool. So we put and end to that and have a cover charge on the weekends. Now we are only getting the people in that want to come in and play pool and have a great time versus mouth breathers that just take up space. Some of the regulars are starting to come back.

We are now having weekly tournaments 8ball and 9ball. We talked with other locations to make sure we didn't have and cross-overs with the tournies that they may be having, so it's working out. We are starting to see new faces which is always great! I enjoy it, tonight I actually had some great competition in the 9ball tournie and I was only able to pull of 2nd place! It was still fun though.

More and more people are beginning to take an interest in pool I've noticed, but we are starting to lose the older players. What we need to start doing is pull in these new ones and help them out with their game when they ask for help. That way we can keep their focus. I've found getting a regular and a newb together they seem to have a great time because the regular old guy about to call it quits is now having the time of their life teaching someone else their mad skills on the table as I call it!
 
Is pool dying? It's already dead. The main reason for it is right in front of your eyes, the internet. People spend more time in front of computers in places like this than they do actually interacting with real people. It's sad to think about but I think in another 10-20 years people are going to have zero social skills.....and to relate this to another thread, spelling and grammar will have disappeared totally.
MULLY
 
Sorry, this was entirely my fault. When I read your post, I saw ??? at the end, which to me, implied that you were asking a question, and looking for other people's opinions. I should have realized that what you really were doing is disguising a statement as a question. What you really wanted to do was to whine for the sake of whining, have everyone agree with you, and if they didn't, well then it was time to unleash the fury.

So, I'll recant my previous stance.

You're right. Pool is dying. Go back to Halo, please.

Now see, I tried to just let it die in the end by simply stating you are right... So why do you still feel the need to keep talking about it?? If you really want to see immaturity then why don't you look in a mirror. You speak about me being immature because of the ways in which I respond to your posts, but you consistently are there ready to respond back with your own rebutals attacking me in the same manner, entertaining my thoughts, and adding your own little smart remarks as well?? I'm 23 years old and I will agree that I am not as mature as say a grown adult. So, now that we've cleared up my excuse for being immature.

WHAT'S YOUR EXCUSE??? :confused::confused:

You are just as immature if not more because you should KNOW better with your life long years of experience. Age can affect maturity, but really it depends on the individual. I've seen some pretty GROWN men become just as immature as they come at many tournaments I've been too and even throughout the military as well. So please, before you point the finger remember 3 are pointing right back at you.

Also, BCA and US Opens being the only major events there is?? Maybe you might have missed;

Turning Stone
Derby City
Carolina Open
US 10 Ball Open
Steve Mizerak Championship
Gem City 10-Ball Classic
Super Billiards Expo Pro Event
Reno Open
Predator 10-Ball Championship

Those are just some that come to mind. So you might want to stick to your league and stay in Canada because I doubt I'll see you in attendence at any of them because from waht it sounds like the reason you like the CPA is to get away from your wife (that probably beats you), your kids (who don't listen to you), and so you can stay in a comfort zone and not get creamed when you play someone who is a winner and doesn't think that winning is just a bonus... You sound like a washed up player that didn't make it because you don't have the mentality of a winner.

I should go back to Halo eh? (you like that I went a little Canadian on you) So now you are discouraging a younger player and telling him to leave the sport. Anyway, you are a very fun person to argue with.

I do actually have a car btw and why would I drive to the NE when there is plenty of tour stops that come through the South??
 
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The original poster of this thread is on the edge of being a contender in the open level regional tournaments. Its time for you to put the pedal to the medal and practice to compete at that level, and not point a finger at the rest of pool as an excuse. Thats what makes great players my friend, its a personal choice and no player is forced in any 1 direction. Its your choice, there are no excuses in the pool world, thats one thing that will never change. In fact, the pool world will never change, the kid that wants to spend 8 hours a day in the pool room to get better, will do just that. Look at the juniors coming up through the ranks at the very present, I have been around this game for 35 years and have never seen the amount of talent coming up through the juniors as the talent thats out there right now. For instance Landon Shuffett, he will be one of the greatest players the USA ever saw, but he does not have to win at a junior tournament of his age group at the moment.

I agree with you in a lot of areas. I believe that leagues are responsible for getting many new players started.

I am not pointing the finger at pool. I am going to get better than what I am now there is no question or excuse there. I just have been encountering a lot of different people who have told me different reasons for their lack of interest in the game. I know of at least 8 people that used to play on a regular 8 or 9 months ago completely vanish from the pool scene or duke it out on APA once a week. Most of their excuses are;

Messed up handicap systems in tournaments
-Sand-Baggers
-Over Ranking

Little to no action
-Economy
-Lock Smiths

Open Events are too tough
-They didn't want to come with me and waste $65 in a 2 and out event for them

If we could just strengthen the competetion in our local areas that would extend out into the region and national maybe international level. Like I previously posted I tried to start a tournament. I asked the room owner what tables I could use, discussed money situations, did research to find out which places where doing different things on what days so to not interfere, went home made up a little flyer, printed out 75 copies, and every pool hall I went to with the exception of one declined my flyer. So I said screw it we will do it anyway, tell as many people as you can, and we'll se how it goes. got 8 people the 1st week, 5 the next, and little to none every week after for 2 months.

Tuesdays; $15 entry, Texas Express, race to 5 on the winners, 3 on the losers, non-handicap, and starts at 7pm.

I didn't see the problem and the people that attended liked it. But, because the numbers were so little people stopped coming, a lot said they couldn't make it because of APA, and some were just never told about it.... I tried to make it better in my area, but the tournament held on Wednesdays at another place still pulls 24+ players every week. They have a busted handicap system that is geared for a lower ranked player to win.

Don't you see what that does to the players?? It allows them to suck and be rewarded for it.... They will never get better because the don't need too!!! They get the 7 out and 3 games on the wire going to 7 when they play an actual tough player. I like the fact that leagues can bring people in, the problem is there as well though. It is not benefical for you to be a 6 or 7. It is better to play like a 6 or 7 and actually be a 4 or 5. This way when your team needs you to pull a win for them you punch the REAL 4 or 5 in the face!!! It's a load of crap.

As far as young players (18 and under) are concerned like Landon. He is Stan's (one of the greatest intructors there is folks) son, he can't go wrong. LOL He doesn't have to pay for lessons, his dad can pass down years of knowledge, watch him compete, and give feedback on his performance. I mean shoot I'm pretty sure if you snatched any kid at the age of whenever Landon started playing and put him in the care of Stan till now he'd come out the same way. What about the guy that doesn't have those opportunities?? Should we just say oh well here you can play APA for $20 a year and $7 a week or if you really want to get better here spend $75-$100 an hour so can have lessons. It's about helping our minority world out. I mean hell take a payment plan or something. I had a Pro player tell me once when I asked him to show me somethings he said he didn't want to show me too much because he didn't want me geting better because we were going to the same events in the Regional area.
 
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I see it more and more every passing day. Less and less people in the poolhalls, action is deminishing left and right, and nice rooms are simply closing down. What is the deal?? I mean doesn't anyone care for this sport anymore? So many players I know have just quit all out or have fallen into this APA crap and that seems to be safice for them!!

What can we change in the US?? A room owner was kind of ill at me because I grabbed 3 of my buddys and took them to a different poolhall to play in a tournament one time. He said I was taking business away from him and helping the other place out. I was helping pool out by keeping more players interested in the sport. I wasn't trying to take away business. I mean with the way pool is going shouldn't we stick together rather than fall apart?

Another thing, if you try and start up some kind of weekly tournament that doesn't interfere with any other poolhall's tournaments. Like let's take for example in my area Tuesdays and Thurdays there isn't a poolhall within 20 miles hosting any kind of tournament, but if I wanted to start one at a particular place and try and get the word out other pool room owners wont accept the flyers in their place because they don't want players to leave their room and go play somewhere else....

Does anyone else see where I'm coming from???

APA, other leagues, and terrible handicap systems in tournaments are also HUGE problems!!!!!!!!! People are commited to playing on their league team rather than go to a tournament, it's unreal and in most tournaments in my area you have to play perfect to win because you get jacked up so high in their RETARDED handicap system that one or two bad rolls and the other guy runs away from you. I mean at this one place I have to give out the 6 with 3 games on the wire going to 7 to someone who can run 3 or 4 balls with ball in hand!!! I don't even play that good, I have just won it once or twice and got 3rd once. Ever since then everytime I go out there I get steam rolled and HE WONT ADJUST ME!!!!!! Seriously how is anyone supposed to stay interested in the game if everywhere you go there is some beat handicap system that gears for the lower ranked player to win and you are jacked up so high you might as well be donating, then you go to an OPEN event and donate there because you apparently play too good for these people and not good enough to play those people. So tell me, aside from slitting my wrist and bleeding out in the bathroom, how can we expect to keep me and others like me (I'm pretty sure I am not the only person in America with this problem) interested in the sport when we are punished for playing good?? In order for pool to stay alive we need to commit to the right priorities in order to make it happen.


I don't understand and never will why the local room owners don't all band together and divide up the dates on the calendar so that there is a tournament every night somewhere and then promote 1 or 2 big tournaments a month. Allow ALL the players from around the area to participate in a ranking system that draws from ALL the small tournaments that qualifies them for the larger events. Make it so that the larger events can ONLY be played in by players who have played in x-amount of smaller events to prevent the larger events from being robbed by out-of-towners.

This seems like such a NO BRAINER to me and guarantees all the room owners a piece of the action.

As to why there is no interest in pool you have to go no farther than the BCA's OWN BOOTH at the recent BCA Expo in Las Vegas.

As I walked in on the first morning what do I see but a big screen TV set up in front of a couch and two kids playing a WII game (and not a WII Pool Game). At the BILLIARDS expo! I thought well if the BCA doesn't see the irony of this then it's no wonder that they are running out of money and members.

All these "smart" people who are in a position to do something sit around and let things like this happen. If pool is dying it's because of room owners and industry leaders who can't see the bigger picture and never will.
 
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