Is pool dying in the US???

[JB Cases]

I will go back to the OP here.

What pool needs here imo is a charismatic American to become "the man". As a Golf Professional, I can tell you my sport is helped tremendously by Tiger and Phil, these 2 draw people into the game. Tiger could be the greatest player ever, but he still has an "aura" about him that draws people to him. Popularity-wise, golf is doing great, and pool will never compare in popularity, but having somebody at the top that people find interesting would help.

Maybe billiards just needs another "Color of Money".

Even if we had "the man" it wouldn't help. Golf already had an international platform with stars where a Tiger Woods can step up to and get intense media attention by outstripping the competition. Same with Michael Jordan and basketball. In pool you could have one player dominating the tournaments and playing practically impossible shots and no one outside of us diehard fans would care or notice.

Pool does need another Hustler or Color of Money. It has been proven many times over that movies are very influential on what the public does. The last two booms in pool were caused by the Hustler and The Color of Money.

But honestly, in myopinion, pool simply has no consistency and therefore NO CREDIBILITY.

It's like the playdough of the sports world.

Make the sets shorter in the finals to appease TV - no problem. Make the pros play silly made-up games for TV - no problem. Play every tournament under different rules - no problem.

What is "pocket billiards" and who governs it? Right now there are probably 500 versions of pocket billiards played around the world when you include every different ruleset of all the most popular games. And along with those multiple versions comes 20 organizations that all CLAIM to be the governing body of pool.

The PGA makes it simple. Want our players then deal with US. We play Golf by one set of rules worldwide. When we sanction tournaments you can expect the best in the world to show up and play and the best in the world expect the conditions that we set forth as acceptable for professional play. Pretty easy right?

Try that in pool. First you will get laughed at and secondly you will be shown the door. The networks all know that there is NO ONE in pool who can speak for the players. They know that there is not ONE ORGANIZATION who governs pool. And they know that the public doesn't care or know who the stars in pool are.

Pool is ALL ABOUT the individual. Be it the room owner, the league owner, the player, it's all about each person thinking that they know what is best for pool and refusing to entertain or work with anyone else's ideas. Everyone in pool just wants to do what they want to do in the way that they want and screw everyone else. Well, not everyone, but the majority so it makes it nearly impossible and discouraging for the few people who do try to build consensus and make something happen.

How much do you want to see pool succeed? Do you think that the leagues would see fit to take .25cts per member per week and GIVE IT to a non-profit group whose ONLY MISSION is to set up and run a GENDERLESS professional tour complete with a PGA-style organization to govern it. ONE STUPID QUARTER - $1 per month per person - with the result being that pool would BLOSSOM in the public's consciousness and MILLIONS would start playing pool on leagues.

How much is that? - well if you believe the APA/VNEA/BCA?TAP etc... then you have to think that there are at least 300,000 people RIGHT NOW who are playing pool each week on leagues. So that would be $75,000 A WEEK going towards funding professional pool and getting it on TV consistently. That's 3.9 MILLION per year. If that's not enough to hire competent people whose job it is to govern professional pool and get a pro tour established complete with REAL SPONSORS and EXCITING TV then we have to accept that pool really is dead.

What's in it for the APA etc.... MORE CUSTOMERS(players). Which in turn provides more revenue for the Pro Tour making it stronger which in turn brings in more players. Gosh this is so hard to follow isn't it?

Increase the dues by .25cts a person and the players at the street level won't even feel it.

And you know what to go even further - REQUIRE that the pro players DONATE time back t the community in EVERY STATE by giving lessons, exhibitions, autograpgh sessions, guest coaching on league nights. Then the local league players will feel a real connection to the professionals and get to know them and won't mind the .25cts a week that keeps them employed.

BUT this is ALL a pipe dream. There is NO WAY ON EARTH that any of the leagues would cooperate. And I was just speaking of America. What if the same thing applied to the WPA - every individual member of every billiard club in the world spent $12 a year to support professional pool worldwide?

 

[DefiniteHasBeen]

I will go back to the OP here.

What pool needs here imo is a charismatic American to become "the man". As a Golf Professional, I can tell you my sport is helped tremendously by Tiger and Phil, these 2 draw people into the game. Tiger could be the greatest player ever, but he still has an "aura" about him that draws people to him. Popularity-wise, golf is doing great, and pool will never compare in popularity, but having somebody at the top that people find interesting would help.

Maybe billiards just needs another "Color of Money".

Pool will never get any real sponsorship dollars like golf because many of the pool players are over in the corner checking the "bookie lines" before their tournament matches start. In trying to make $500 by winning (or dumping) their match, they cost the pool world any chance of a big company putting up $25,000 to sponsor a tournament.

As for handicap leauges and tounaments, in my opinion, they are what has stalled the growth of pool... their is no incentive to get better. If you do get better, you basically get punished by having to give up crazy weight in short races and have to out run the nuts daily.

I had to pay my dues by getting punished by "better players" for years. When I became a "better player", along came handicapping and, again in my opinion, that is when pool the game began its downward spiral.

 

[DaveK]

You don't need to post every time you agree with something. Stop it. Just stop it. :slap: :deadhorse:

I agree :thumbup: ... ooooops :sorry: :embarrassed2:

And Porcospino, argue your point all you want, but please show a little class and quit using the word CANADA as some kind of club.

Dave

 

[Porcospino]

Pool does need another Hustler or Color of Money. It has been proven many times over that movies are very influential on what the public does. The last two booms in pool were caused by the Hustler and The Color of Money.

But honestly, in myopinion, pool simply has no consistency and therefore NO CREDIBILITY.

It's like the playdough of the sports world.

Make the sets shorter in the finals to appease TV - no problem. Make the pros play silly made-up games for TV - no problem. Play every tournament under different rules - no problem.

What is "pocket billiards" and who governs it? Right now there are probably 500 versions of pocket billiards played around the world when you include every different ruleset of all the most popular games. And along with those multiple versions comes 20 organizations that all CLAIM to be the governing body of pool.

The PGA makes it simple. Want our players then deal with US. We play Golf by one set of rules worldwide. When we sanction tournaments you can expect the best in the world to show up and play and the best in the world expect the conditions that we set forth as acceptable for professional play. Pretty easy right?

Try that in pool. First you will get laughed at and secondly you will be shown the door. The networks all know that there is NO ONE in pool who can speak for the players. They know that there is not ONE ORGANIZATION who governs pool. And they know that the public doesn't care or know who the stars in pool are.

Pool is ALL ABOUT the individual. Be it the room owner, the league owner, the player, it's all about each person thinking that they know what is best for pool and refusing to entertain or work with anyone else's ideas. Everyone in pool just wants to do what they want to do in the way that they want and screw everyone else. Well, not everyone, but the majority so it makes it nearly impossible and discouraging for the few people who do try to build consensus and make something happen.

How much do you want to see pool succeed? Do you think that the leagues would see fit to take .25cts per member per week and GIVE IT to a non-profit group whose ONLY MISSION is to set up and run a GENDERLESS professional tour complete with a PGA-style organization to govern it. ONE STUPID QUARTER - $1 per month per person - with the result being that pool would BLOSSOM in the public's consciousness and MILLIONS would start playing pool on leagues.

How much is that? - well if you believe the APA/VNEA/BCA?TAP etc... then you have to think that there are at least 300,000 people RIGHT NOW who are playing pool each week on leagues. So that would be $75,000 A WEEK going towards funding professional pool and getting it on TV consistently. That's 3.9 MILLION per year. If that's not enough to hire competent people whose job it is to govern professional pool and get a pro tour established complete with REAL SPONSORS and EXCITING TV then we have to accept that pool really is dead.

What's in it for the APA etc.... MORE CUSTOMERS(players). Which in turn provides more revenue for the Pro Tour making it stronger which in turn brings in more players. Gosh this is so hard to follow isn't it?

Increase the dues by .25cts a person and the players at the street level won't even feel it.

And you know what to go even further - REQUIRE that the pro players DONATE time back t the community in EVERY STATE by giving lessons, exhibitions, autograpgh sessions, guest coaching on league nights. Then the local league players will feel a real connection to the professionals and get to know them and won't mind the .25cts a week that keeps them employed.

BUT this is ALL a pipe dream. There is NO WAY ON EARTH that any of the leagues would cooperate. And I was just speaking of America. What if the same thing applied to the WPA - every individual member of every billiard club in the world spent $12 a year to support professional pool worldwide?

1st off, I'm sorry for chopping on Canada. I got carried away and I apologize..

This person has a REAL SOLUTION or at least something that is worth trying. If people in the different leagues would work together and merge under one collective and actually put some effort into this idea and it works!!! Than my friend you quite possibly could be the greatest legend in the history of the game.. Unless of course you stole this idea from someone who didn't want to take the time to type it out. Either way I think you should write this up in a real letter format and send it to the different leagues main bosses and see what they think. If you don't want to do that than please give me permission to do that with your idea.

AWESOME POST

 

[JB Cases]

1st off, I'm sorry for chopping on Canada. I got carried away and I apologize..

This person has a REAL SOLUTION or at least something that is worth trying. If people in the different leagues would work together and merge under one collective and actually put some effort into this idea and it works!!! Than my friend you quite possibly could be the greatest legend in the history of the game.. Unless of course you stole this idea from someone who didn't want to take the time to type it out. Either way I think you should write this up in a real letter format and send it to the different leagues main bosses and see what they think. If you don't want to do that than please give me permission to do that with your idea.

AWESOME POST

The idea that support from a broad collective base is nothing new. All Charities rely on billions in small donations.

The WPA also had the same idea a decade ago and asked the board members for $1 per player member per YEAR - DECLINED!!! The board members wouldn't even take the idea back to their continental associations. $1 lousy dollar per year.

Do what you want to. Ideas are free no one owns them. A famous quote goes something like this "nothing in the world is cheaper than a good idea with no action." Go for it - write those letters. Nothing will come of it because the people who have the MEANS to fund it WILL NOT do so because they are so small minded and competitive that they will NEVER let go of any part of their fiefdoms in order to grow the sport.

Jaded outlook? It sure is.

 

[JB Cases]

Pool will never get any real sponsorship dollars like golf because many of the pool players are over in the corner checking the "bookie lines" before their tournament matches start. In trying to make $500 by winning (or dumping) their match, they cost the pool world any chance of a big company putting up $25,000 to sponsor a tournament.

As for handicap leauges and tounaments, in my opinion, they are what has stalled the growth of pool... their is no incentive to get better. If you do get better, you basically get punished by having to give up crazy weight in short races and have to out run the nuts daily.

I had to pay my dues by getting punished by "better players" for years. When I became a "better player", along came handicapping and, again in my opinion, that is when pool the game began its downward spiral.

Handicapping has ALWAYS been there with pool. Even match descriptions from the mid 1850s describe how they were handicapped.

The incentive to get better is the same as it is in any endeavor - personal satisfaction.

If you think it's to win money and earn a living then I can make an argument that a player CAN earn a decent living by getting better EVEN if that player never makes the top ten of any professional tour. Obviously there are plenty of trick shot artists out there who make decent money traveling the world and doing their shows.

There are plenty of pros and semi-pros who manage to eke out a living and don't have to work a regular job. And if most of them were smarter or better said, more industrious, they could be earning serious money from their pool skills.

But they don't. They enjoy a relative life of leisure that allows them to "work" when they want to by playing in whatever events they decide to, they might do an exhibition now and then, or a challenge match, gamble a little and basically live with being flush one week and broke the next.

Now this isn't a life that most people can handle. But a gunslinging free ranging pool player doesn't answer to anyone but himself. Of course he would like more events with bigger prize money to play for but since he is not willing to WORK towards building this platform he gladly accepts whatever morsels the promoters dish out. Well, not gladly, but he accepts them nonetheless.

SOME PLAYERS work HARD at their game and they enjoy financial success from it. Even regional players. Pool is nothing more than a reflection of the animal kingdom. If a predator eats all the game in a given area then he has to range farther to find food. It's only natural that people don't want to be sacrificial lambs to better players all the time. It's the same in every sport WHICH is why most other sports have different classes, and divisions, and WHEN a lower class matches up with a higher class then some kind of handicap is involved.

Now of course there are plenty of IDIOT tournament directors out there who unfairly or deliberately mishandicap players. This is the bigger problem.

If ALL local TDs would keep records like the owner of one Florida poolroom does then there would be NO PROBLEM with handicapping. He keeps an index card on EVERY PLAYER that plays in his events. Then he applies a formula to adjust that player's handicap based on their performance and the depth of the field. No one argues or *****es about their handicap because he just pulls out the card and shows them how their performance is tracked. The players in his room are PROUD - DAMN PROUD when they are moved up in handicap. And they come in extra and practice more when they are moved down in handicap. Some people get it.

This room owner also sends the local league op on a free PAID VACATION each year to thank her for bringing some 40 teams into his place. Some people get it.

 

[mikepage]

Pool is dying in the US for for so many factors. First of let me discuss the leagues. Without question they bring in more new people to the sport than anything else. I myself arent a big fan of them because to me the majority are playing pool as a social outting, with no real desire to improve....

This is where we need an attitude shift, imo.

We--people who care about the game in a serious way--need to embrace pool as a social activity.

When we fail to do that, then "social pool" is up for grabs to be pursued by folk who care more about getting bodies into an establishment than they do about pool--whether it's vending companies or the APA or whatever. I'm not criticizing these groups; they're doing their own thing. I'm criticizing US for giving them so much low-lying fruit.

Vending companies--those who lease & maintain coin-operated equipment like pool tables, darts, video games etc to bars--are saying to the bars...we know how to get people into your place, and that is the main function of pool leagues from the point of view of the vending companies.

Pool room owners need to embrace social leagues in a major way. As it is, with social leagues and "real pool" being so separate, there is no mechanism for that social; leaguer who just wants to get a little more serious to do so. It's like to get her feet wet the social leaguer would need to join a whole new sub culture.

One major thing that we who care about pool can do is grease that transition between

A. occasional social player
B. social league player
C social league player who occasionally talks to a few more serious players
D social player who timidly tries a few small weekly tournaments
E social player who talks more to people with passion for the game
F former social player - has the bug

We should expect that most people will stay at A or B. But that is OK. If leagues were run in a poolroom by people who care about pool, then out of 1000 people making the transition from A to B, we might get 800 to C and 600 to D and 400 to E and 200 to F.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

The original question was, "Is pool dying in the US???"


After reading all the replies, I am not sure Pool is dying, as many people have home tables.

Maybe a better question is what could, and can be done to pump more life in U.S. Pool?

Pool is Asia appears strong and well with many countries like the Philippines have a thriving Pool Economy, and lots of people playing pool.

Maybe the US Pool Sanctioning, and organizing bodies like BCA, APA, ACS, and the others should study why say Pool is as popular in the Philippines, and clone the part of their business plan that would work in the U.S.

 

[Black-Balled]

...
Pool is Asia appears strong and well with many countries like the Philippines have a thriving Pool Economy, and lots of people playing pool.

Maybe the US Pool Sanctioning, and organizing bodies like BCA, APA, ACS, and the others should study why say Pool is as popular in the Philippines, and clone the part of their business plan that would work in the U.S.[/B][/COLOR]

It is popular coz it is income there. I don't think you can transplant the popularity of pool in P.I./ S.W. Pacific to the USA. I have read that the average individual spends more per year on gambling than the average househild income (there).

Its a different world there.

 

[lodini]

This is where we need an attitude shift, imo.

We--people who care about the game in a serious way--need to embrace pool as a social activity.

When we fail to do that, then "social pool" is up for grabs to be pursued by folk who care more about getting bodies into an establishment than they do about pool--whether it's vending companies or the APA or whatever. I'm not criticizing these groups; they're doing their own thing. I'm criticizing US for giving them so much low-lying fruit.

Vending companies--those who lease & maintain coin-operated equipment like pool tables, darts, video games etc to bars--are saying to the bars...we know how to get people into your place, and that is the main function of pool leagues from the point of view of the vending companies.

Pool room owners need to embrace social leagues in a major way. As it is, with social leagues and "real pool" being so separate, there is no mechanism for that social; leaguer who just wants to get a little more serious to do so. It's like to get her feet wet the social leaguer would need to join a whole new sub culture.

One major thing that we who care about pool can do is grease that transition between

A. occasional social player
B. social league player
C social league player who occasionally talks to a few more serious players
D social player who timidly tries a few small weekly tournaments
E social player who talks more to people with passion for the game
F former social player - has the bug

We should expect that most people will stay at A or B. But that is OK. If leagues were run in a poolroom by people who care about pool, then out of 1000 people making the transition from A to B, we might get 800 to C and 600 to D and 400 to E and 200 to F.

I agree with this post 100%. It's only funny to me because I was set to post something very similar, but was determined to read all the way to the end before doing so. Then here it was! 3 posts from the end

So, my thoughts brought me to consider the different pool environments I have been involved in over the years. When I lived in NY, I noticed a real "community" of pool players playing some serious ball. After moving down to Miami, I found that community is MUCH smaller, though it does exist, but it's really hard to find unless you are well-connected. What is much more prevalent are the froo-froo pool halls where 90% of the patrons are bangers in business suits playing as a happy hour activity. There are also the hole-in-the-walls, where only the "locals" go. The suits don't go there. Most every bar I walk into has a pool table, with a bevy of drunkards lined up to play. So, unless you are in an area with a big network of pros and tournaments, you can expect pool to be a social thing. If we embrace that, then we don't alienate the players who like to play, but don't think they can take it too seriously! Open your minds and open your hearts

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Pool just cannot compete with the existing PROS Sports

Where is pool in this list? NOWHERE....
300 million people in the USA and pool accounts for about 350,000 participants a week. Mostly league players playing 8 ball.

Major league BaseBall has 13-15 games a night that average approximately 20,000 per game which equals 320,000 spectators a night. And my guess is that a lot more than 'some' of us pool players would say baseball is boring.

$16 Billion...

800 professional sports organizations with a total of $16Billion ANNUAL income......



http://www.hoovers.com/professional...s/--ID__315--/free-ind-fr-profile-basic.xhtml

 

[Island Drive]

Where is pool in this list? NOWHERE....
300 million people in the USA and pool accounts for about 350,000 participants a week. Mostly league players playing 8 ball.

Major league BaseBall has 13-15 games a night that average approximately 20,000 per game which equals 320,000 spectators a night. And my guess is that a lot more than 'some' of us pool players would say baseball is boring.

$16 Billion...

800 professional sports organizations with a total of $16Billion ANNUAL income......



That's because our 'game' hasn't yet created the right vehicle for the public to be led to water, as 'we' know....once you get the pool bug....its a difficult bug to get rid of.

 

[JB Cases]

This is where we need an attitude shift, imo.

We--people who care about the game in a serious way--need to embrace pool as a social activity.

When we fail to do that, then "social pool" is up for grabs to be pursued by folk who care more about getting bodies into an establishment than they do about pool--whether it's vending companies or the APA or whatever. I'm not criticizing these groups; they're doing their own thing. I'm criticizing US for giving them so much low-lying fruit.

Vending companies--those who lease & maintain coin-operated equipment like pool tables, darts, video games etc to bars--are saying to the bars...we know how to get people into your place, and that is the main function of pool leagues from the point of view of the vending companies.

Pool room owners need to embrace social leagues in a major way. As it is, with social leagues and "real pool" being so separate, there is no mechanism for that social; leaguer who just wants to get a little more serious to do so. It's like to get her feet wet the social leaguer would need to join a whole new sub culture.

One major thing that we who care about pool can do is grease that transition between

A. occasional social player
B. social league player
C social league player who occasionally talks to a few more serious players
D social player who timidly tries a few small weekly tournaments
E social player who talks more to people with passion for the game
F former social player - has the bug

We should expect that most people will stay at A or B. But that is OK. If leagues were run in a poolroom by people who care about pool, then out of 1000 people making the transition from A to B, we might get 800 to C and 600 to D and 400 to E and 200 to F.

If we had 1000 proprietors like you in the USA then pool would be thriving.

In fact Mike there are many places around the USA that get it and they strive mightily to bring more people into the rooms. There are many places that cater to leagues and as a result their rooms are booming and thriving.

The problem is that the people with enough money to promote pool nationally and get pool in front of tens and hundreds of millions of people each week are either incompetent for the task or worse too selfish and shortsighted to cooperate for the growth of the sport.