Is Shane the best American ever at both

[vjmehra]

To me instead of trying to figure out which titles are relavant and which was are tougher to win is pointless. I'm not the biggest golf fan but aren't the titles refered to as majors? And is one major less of an accomplishment than the other? I really don't know I'm not being sarcastic. But my point is if we group all the 40k -50k$ tournaments together n call them majors I do believe Shane has won more In the last 10 years as anyone. And as far as "world" titles I don't think it's more of an accomplishment currently to win the wpa9 ball then the open but I know it's harder for an American to win a tournament overseas just like an Asian or European winning the us open. But for this particular argument I don't consider Shane's lack of "world" titles from holding him back In the greatest discussion. Now if the world 9 ball was let's say a 250k$ first prize I would consider it more of an accomplishment and I am aware there have been years the world 9 or 10 ball first prize was 100$k or close to it but within the last few years it's just not the case so to me any 40k$ first prize is a major and should be viewed equally regardless of the actual title of the tournament

I was waiting for someone to mention majors...its a valid point that in tennis and golf the concept of majors exist, each has 4 titles of equal significance and a victory in any is equally regarded.

However pool is more like snooker (in terms of the tournament structure). In snooker there are 3 'majors' however the World title is considered to be far more prestigious than the Masters or UK Championships.

To qualify that, if you ask a golfer which major they would prefer to win, most would perhaps say their 'home' tournament, other than that no real preference, the same with tennis.

Now do the same with snooker, all will say the world championship and then we get to pool where anyone outside the US would say the world championship and I'd guess a large number of pro's within the US would too. Would international (and domestic) players want to win the US Open...absolutely, just not as much as the World Championships (I assume).

The pattern is repeated for any sports that have a recognised World Championship, tennis and golf don't really (yes I know that point can be debated), hence the majors concept works for them.

(Before anyone moans, I'm just using snooker to illustrate a point!)

 

[Black-Balled]

I think the point about no line to play shane is for their own money.

Damn near all of us would ay him on somebody elses money.

I watch them play almost every year live on TV in the Mosconi Cup...I'm sure they play in plenty of other non-televised events too.

Its neither one of their faults if they both enter a tournament and don't end up playing each other...that happens.

On the assumption you are referring to gambling, that is an odd obsession people have on this forum, professional sportsmen at the top level are of course free to do that (rules permitting), however quite why they should be looked down on for not wishing to gamble is odd.

 

[nine_ball6970]

I watch them play almost every year live on TV in the Mosconi Cup...I'm sure they play in plenty of other non-televised events too.

Its neither one of their faults if they both enter a tournament and don't end up playing each other...that happens.

On the assumption you are referring to gambling, that is an odd obsession people have on this forum, professional sportsmen at the top level are of course free to do that (rules permitting), however quite why they should be looked down on for not wishing to gamble is odd.

You aren't a real man in the US unless you are willing to gamble for big stakes. Playing $1k-5k tournaments is for sissies.

 

[vjmehra]

You aren't a real man in the US unless you are willing to gamble for big stakes. Playing $1k-5k tournaments is for sissies.

I can absolutely see why players gamble when tournament pay outs are sometimes poor....but for the larger tournaments (e.g. World 9-Ball, US Open, Chinese 8-Ball, World Pool Masters) the winners prize is decent at least.

 

[vjmehra]

I think the point about no line to play shane is for their own money.

Damn near all of us would ay him on somebody elses money.

I assumed that virtually no players play with their own cash, they almost always split it with a backer don't they? Is SVB any different?

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Nick Varner-

1980 Professional Pool Players Association World Open 14.1 Pocket Billiard Championship

1982 Professional Pool Players Association World Nine-ball Championship

1986 Professional Pool Players Association World 14.1 Championship

1989 MPBA Brunswick World Championship

1994 World 8-Ball Championship

1999 WPA World Nine-ball Championship

1999 World Championship 9-Ball Bank

2000 World One Pocket Championship

The above is just his world titles in 5 different disciplines. He also has

1970 ACU-I Intercolleagiate Championship

1980 Billiard Congress of America National Eight-ball Championship

1989 US Open 9-Ball

1990 US Open 9-Ball

1990 World Series Championship

Plus 76 other professional titles.

I'd say SVB has a ways to go to be best all around American ever.

Mike's list is even longer than that one

 

[smashmouth]

time to call bs on all the Harold Worst drops around these parts

there's probably like three people left alive ever see him play, the man played for a short time ages ago when Moses was around, and just like Willie Hoppe, he played in the American/Amateur version of the world three cushion championship, NOT the real UMB professional championships from which Mosconi who actually travelled and played against non amerocans called Ceulemans the greatest cue man ever

American revisionist history has ignored for the most part the true history of world three cushion

Worst never took a title from Mosconi either did he? When 14.1 reigned as the supreme game of champions and Mosconi dominated 14.1, where was Worst?

oh yeah, he was "robbing " guys in money matches alongside Don WIllis and the other mythical creatures of the pool world

 

[PoolBum]

Worst never took a title from Mosconi either did he? When 14.1 reigned as the supreme game of champions and Mosconi dominated 14.1, where was Worst?

Mosconi's last title came around 1956. Worst reportedly did not start playing pool until 1961.

 

[Scott Lee]

You're nuts...Worst was born in Grand Rapids MI.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

rotation games is what I meant. That's right about Worst ,he played all games
great, for cash and tournaments.I think he was Swedish, I don't know if he was
an American citizen. Also a 3 - C champion
jack

 

[AtLarge]

time to call bs on all the Harold Worst drops around these parts

there's probably like three people left alive ever see him play, the man played for a short time ages ago when Moses was around, and just like Willie Hoppe, he played in the American/Amateur version of the world three cushion championship, NOT the real UMB professional championships from which Mosconi who actually travelled and played against non amerocans called Ceulemans the greatest cue man ever

American revisionist history has ignored for the most part the true history of world three cushion

Worst never took a title from Mosconi either did he? When 14.1 reigned as the supreme game of champions and Mosconi dominated 14.1, where was Worst?

oh yeah, he was "robbing " guys in money matches alongside Don WIllis and the other mythical creatures of the pool world

Some interesting views (by knowledgeable people) on the quality of Worst's play (billiards and pool) can be found here: http://www.thehypertexts.com/Harold Worst Pool Billiards the Best.htm

 

[one stroke]

Some interesting views (by knowledgeable people) on the quality of Worst's play (billiards and pool) can be found here: http://www.thehypertexts.com/Harold Worst Pool Billiards the Best.htm

That's crazy 20 guys showing up for 1k games if Shane posted that you would be lucky to get 3 to show up

1

 

[Neil]

That's crazy 20 guys showing up for 1k games if Shane posted that you would be lucky to get 3 to show up

1

If you read it a little closer, you will see that he was unknown at the time. Yet, he still got their money and after the first three guys, nobody wanted to play him.

 

[jasonlaus]

I watch them play almost every year live on TV in the Mosconi Cup...I'm sure they play in plenty of other non-televised events too.

Its neither one of their faults if they both enter a tournament and don't end up playing each other...that happens.

On the assumption you are referring to gambling, that is an odd obsession people have on this forum, professional sportsmen at the top level are of course free to do that (rules permitting), however quite why they should be looked down on for not wishing to gamble is odd.

You do know that Darren gambles right?
Jason

 

[Celtic]

Is Shane the best American ever for tournaments and for the cash.

<snip>

Seems like Shane will tee
it up for the dough with anyone.

Shane is not dealing with Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, or any other elite American's of the past. Shane is the only true professional pool player who exists in the USA today, it is pretty easy action to dominate...

Shane is great, but he is the best American pool player in the worst American pool scene in the history of the sport. He is the only player in America who actually plays real pro pool on the world stage. which is where the true pro game exists these days.

 

[Celtic]

time to call bs on all the Harold Worst drops around these parts

The problem with Worst is he died to quickly to know how good he actually would have been long term.

If Mika Immonen had died back in his prime when he was winning the World 9-ball championships and US Opens he would have become a legend and people would say to this day "had he survived he would have dominated pool".

If Johnny Archer had died after winning his second World 9-ball Championships he would have been considered the most dominate 9-ball player to live given how hyped he was back then.

If Yang had died after drilling Orcullo for the second money match in a row? He would be seen as the best ever and people would say he had been destined to be a multi-time world champ. Instead he lived, lost some worlds matches, and became a fisherman.

The problem with the above guys? They lived and they were proved to be human. Worst died after peaking for a short period of time and people have assumed that he would have remained that dominate forever. Only thing is, very few players ever do... Every year in pool there is a new phenom that takes the world by storm, Chang, Ko, SVB, Orcullo, Yang, Appleton, Shaw, Wu, ect... only thing is most survive and come back down to earth.

Worst peaked and became the worlds best for a short period of time, as many players do. Unlike most players he then died and left a bunch of people in the pool world thinking he was destined to dominate pool for the next 20 years if it was not for brain cancer. More then likely he would have been another great player who came and went like most of the others before and after him. The guy was already pushing 40 when he died, he was fairly old in pool years, most players peak well before their 40's and Worst would have had a tough time staying at the top.

 

[Ekojasiloop]

Shane is a total anomaly, and then again, he isn't at all...

I think Shane's story is one in a million personally. We've all been little kids so we know how hard his childhood years probably were. I believe that Shane's dedication to a sport that's very hard to make a reasonable living in comes from the fact that he essentially found something he was good at and simply wanted to say "**** you" to the rest of the world with his que stick. If Shane didn't have his hearing problem I bet he'd be in another profession, I really do. He would be wired totally differently, with different priorities and passions. And I am not knocking him, quite the opposite, I don't think there is anything more beautiful than playing a game just for the beauty of it. He's obviously reached a level where he does make a good living, and I think that's great, I just don't think he would have had nearly the incentive if his circumstances were different.

On the other hand, what motivates young kids? Money, girls, power, egos. After you get money all that other stuff follows. I've no doubt there'd be a ton of Shane's running around the USA if there were serious money in pool like there is in golf. People would have that passion like Shane's had, but just for different reasons.

Is he the best? I think he's in that class but there's no way anybody is going to tell me he's better than archer was in his prime or Siegel or mcready. They are all comparable players, there's no way he's better. It's just nobody cares about pool in the USA anymore, and he's the exception and I think the reason is because of his unique circumstances.

 

[vjmehra]

You do know that Darren gambles right?
Jason

Is that in response to this?

On the assumption you are referring to gambling, that is an odd obsession people have on this forum, professional sportsmen at the top level are of course free to do that (rules permitting), however quite why they should be looked down on for not wishing to gamble is odd.

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make here.

 

[GoldenFlash]

Harold Worst...the best ever.

time to call bs on all the Harold Worst drops around these parts
there's probably like three people left alive ever see him play, the man played for a short time ages ago when Moses was around, and just like Willie Hoppe, he played in the American/Amateur version of the world three cushion championship, NOT the real UMB professional championships from which Mosconi who actually travelled and played against non amerocans called Ceulemans the greatest cue man ever
American revisionist history has ignored for the most part the true history of world three cushion
Worst never took a title from Mosconi either did he? When 14.1 reigned as the supreme game of champions and Mosconi dominated 14.1, where was Worst?
oh yeah, he was "robbing " guys in money matches alongside Don WIllis and the other mythical creatures of the pool world

You have no clue as to what you're talking about.
I've seen most all of the greats play....from Buck Bozeman to SVB. (and there are a lot more than three people left alive who saw Worst in action, by the way).
Nobody today or before could play pool like Worst. He not only had talent....he had a confounded GIFT. It was almost supernatural. He could see those shot lines and by golly, he could hit the balls in the right spot. And he hit 'em HARD too.
You can hold him up to the harsh light of twisted ridicule forever. But, that just shows how little you really know about pool before you came along.

 

[Matt_24]

In the modern era (new cloth) he is in the top five, along with Earl, Sigel, Buddy and Varner (Mizerak's best years were pre new cloth). It's impossible to rate these guys against players like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter and Worst. They were the greatest of their respective eras.

To go one more cut deeper - Earl may have been the greatest tournament 9-Ball player of all time. He made the 9' table look like a bar box. Like Shane he had the break down pat. He was the best of the best in his era. Buddy probably won more tournaments than anyone ever. He crisscrossed the Eastern U.S. playing nearly every week for over twenty years. He played in any tournament he could find with a $1,000 first prize or more, many of them on bar tables. These were not easy tourneys to win, with many very strong players in the field each week and Buddy won consistently. So much so that to see him finish second was a surprise. I once asked Buddy if he thinks he won 200 tournaments in his life and he responded, "Way more than that!" Sigel was virtually unbeatable if he got to the finals, at one time winning eleven final matches in a row (against guys like Earl, Buddy, Nick and Efren). All on big tables! No one will ever do that again. Sigel had far and away the best TPA (Accu-Stats rating) in every tournament he played in. He would make four to five errors per hundred shots and the next best were in the seven to eight range. Pat Fleming still has all these stats. Nick was player of the year in 1987 I believe, the year he won eleven major tournaments! He was the best player pound for pound that ever lived. Nick was fearless and not intimidated by anyone. He was quiet and not one to boast. When asked how he played against some great player Nick might say, "Go get him and we can play right now!" He beat Efren in a challenge match in the Philippines years before Earl's big match. Not many people talk about that match.

Great post, Jay. A few questions.

I heard from an old schooler in Northern Virginia, who hung out at Nick's dad's poolroom in the late 70's/early 80's that apparently at that time Hopkins was considered the best cash player at that time around the country...but he said that Nick's dad said Hopkins knew he had an open invitation to come gamble with Nick anytime he was ready and could bet what he wanted.

Also, from a similar old schooler I heard that the Mike Sigel/Larry Hubbart team-up was a very successful gambling duo. He said that Mike gambled really good under Hubbart's direction, and he also said that Hubbart was an extremely intimidating gambler. He said that his nick name, THE ICE MAN was very adequate. (And the guy who told me that, I find a bit intimidating, so that was saying something)

Can you talk about Hubbart? I know he was a champion as well. Did he match up a lot with the big boys for big money?

 

[philly]

Too bad he is No longer with us....

Was Jimmy Matz.... (most others ducked him... that is a FACT!!!) He was great at ALL the games... 8-ball, 9-ball, Straight Pool, etc.... just ask some of the old time pros who played him.... Shane Van Boening or Efren Reyes is as close as I know to Jimmy....

The reason most have never heard of him is because he NEVER went pro as there was
too much money NOT being a pro.... just an opinion of someone who knew him, & saw & played with him....

You must be from the Reading, Pa. area. Jimmy is a legend in southeastern Pa. There is an old tape of Matz beating Jimmy Fusco in 9 ball. Grainy but fun to watch. I know of a few guys around here that speak of Matz with awe as to his abilities.