Is the Cue Market Dead Now and Forever?

[phil dade]

There was a period when I would buy custom cues through second parties made by many "better" makers and when available more "elite" cue makers. Two years ago, I realized I had too many cues that I would never use. Plus, what made these "better" cues so unique? The answer was not much because other people had similar cues.

Based on this evaluation, I started trading cues and cash for only elite cuemakers cues. In one case 4 for 1. I still have 3-4 cues to move, however, I now have about 1/3 the number of cues, but focused on only 6 makers. (I think 21 cues)

I believe there are more buyers like me that are picky before adding another maker to the stable. I could see redefining what I have done, again consolidations and upgrading within my maker selection.

 

[ribdoner]

Correct -- what if I posted I had one of my Southwest cues for sale?

to the best #'s guy on the site...

i'm 99% sure you don't need the $$$, so, i"d just tighten my grip. The stronger your hand the more you'll make in the future.

Keep in mind Laurie isn't 39 anymore ( don't tell her ) and when she puts away her dial calipers cues made in her era will spike like they did upon Jerry's untimely death.

If i were to put up a Sw with the intent of selling i'd do my diligence and sell for 5 to 10% under market value. The key to being a successfull cue pimp is staying in action and giving good deals which includes HELPING those that don't understand the game, granted, you hit a lot of singles but if your in the game you may hit a grandslam on occasion. i had a couple deals which net 5 figs and another that was close, with everyone being protected and HAPPY

TC,a

 

[watchez]

They are staying in the safe, adding one a year and hoping I live long enough to retire. Then I'll have my fire sale.

I think the problem with the cue market now is that people are unsure who are collectable cue makers and who aren't. Seems like the last 5+ years, a lot of cue makers have come into the market place but no one really knows if they have true collectable worth. If you simply want a cue that hits great, you can find plenty but you aren't going to be able to sell that cue at a higher price a few years down the road. If you want a cue as an investment, people are fearful they are rolling the dice. Thus my SW example as a collectable. I don't have doubts I'll be able to sell them when the time comes.

 

[jhanso18]

All this talk of dead cue market and Keith literally can't keep up with demand. Both local and international sales are booming, and the best part??? No one is flipping Keith Kues. They buy them, then play with them.

Maybe the cue world just needs more players/buyers. Then again, maybe people ask ridiculous money for their stuff. If your cue is for sale, and no one is buying, I have bad news. You're asking too much...

 

[Big-Tattoo]

All this talk of dead cue market and Keith literally can't keep up with demand. Both local and international sales are booming, and the best part??? No one is flipping Keith Kues. They buy them, then play with them.

Maybe the cue world just needs more players/buyers. Then again, maybe people ask ridiculous money for their stuff. If your cue is for sale, and no one is buying, I have bad news. You're asking too much...

Tap tap,
There was 2times a Keith for sale or trade:wink:
Tell only what is true:thumbup:

 

[Sealegs50]

From my perspective, cues from Gus Szamboti, George Balabushka, Bill Schick, Joss, Joss West, South West, Gina, Tad, et al., established their mystique and dedicated followings because they were used by the best players in pool rooms. That isn’t true any longer. Those same cuemakers ventured into more highly decorated cues, but the emphasis was still on producing the best playing cues. Even if the sport of pool was developing interest in younger players, why would they aspire to own a higher end custom cue?

 

[gutshot]

Market is dead and forever will be with everybody and their brother attempting to make cues. Case in point, the brand new 20th Anniversary wrapless Blue Grass my friend just sold on Ebay that only went for $873. Unreal.

Kelly

 

[tonyboy59]

There was a period when I would buy custom cues through second parties made by many "better" makers and when available more "elite" cue makers. Two years ago, I realized I had too many cues that I would never use. Plus, what made these "better" cues so unique? The answer was not much because other people had similar cues.

Based on this evaluation, I started trading cues and cash for only elite cuemakers cues. In one case 4 for 1. I still have 3-4 cues to move, however, I now have about 1/3 the number of cues, but focused on only 6 makers. (I think 21 cues)

I believe there are more buyers like me that are picky before adding another maker to the stable. I could see redefining what I have done, again consolidations and upgrading within my maker selection.

My sentiments exactly Phil...I have been moving in that direction for the past few years now. I've been thining the herd to where my collection will only include the core of established cue makers (past/present).

-A

 

[63Kcode]

I would think the true collectors would be dancing in the street. With prices down, cues that were out of reach are affordable.

In the late 80s I had a few interesting cars, but nothing truly collectable. Back then my hobby was restoring old Shelby Mustangs. They were fun to work on, but with prices doubling every year. There was no way I could ever buy one. When the market crashed in the mid 90s. I was able to sell my lesser cars and buy my self some Truly collectable cars of my own. If the economy hadn't crashed and cut my income by 70%. I would still be buying. The people who weren't hurt by the downturn are now paying higher prices than ever on high end cars.

I think if the economy hadn't crashed. The collectable cue market would still be strong. I have only been exposed to the cue market for the last 6 years. IMHO about 95% of potential cue buyers have less disposable income than 6 years ago. The other 5% have been scammed by dishonest sellers and builders. Who may have never needed to start scamming if the economy hadn't gone south.

I don't see the market as being dead forever. When the economy comes back. The people who buy well now will be much better off in the long run.

Larry

 

[TATE]

It is doing what a market does. Speculative buying drives prices up, values top out, speculators bail and prices drop until supply meets the lower demand. The strongest players are the least affected. This is simply a bubble bursting.

I have often said that the cues are not an investment. It is a small, finicky, illiquid market with many pot holes. Yes, you can make money but generally this is not a wise environment to do so!

 

[Koop]

It is doing what a market does. Speculative buying drives prices up, values top out, speculators bail and prices drop until supply meets the lower demand. The strongest players are the least affected. This is simply a bubble bursting.

I have often said that the cues are not an investment. It is a small, finicky, illiquid market with many pot holes. Yes, you can make money but generally this is not a wise environment to do so!

Yep...
If I have $3K laying around that money is being invested and not spent on cues. The majority of cues are like 99% of cars; they depreciate. You lose money.
That said, I am on Joel Hercek's list and will absolutely buy when my name pops up. Other than Mike Webb, who's cues I play with, I will spend the money for the Hercek. I love cues and pool but not enough to blow my hard earned money on either anymore.

 

[phil dade]

I would think the true collectors would be dancing in the street. With prices down, cues that were out of reach are affordable.

In the late 80s I had a few interesting cars, but nothing truly collectable. Back then my hobby was restoring old Shelby Mustangs. They were fun to work on, but with prices doubling every year. There was no way I could ever buy one. When the market crashed in the mid 90s. I was able to sell my lesser cars and buy my self some Truly collectable cars of my own. If the economy hadn't crashed and cut my income by 70%. I would still be buying. The people who weren't hurt by the downturn are now paying higher prices than ever on high end cars.

I think if the economy hadn't crashed. The collectable cue market would still be strong. I have only been exposed to the cue market for the last 6 years. IMHO about 95% of potential cue buyers have less disposable income than 6 years ago. The other 5% have been scammed by dishonest sellers and builders. Who may have never needed to start scamming if the economy hadn't gone south.

I don't see the market as being dead forever. When the economy comes back. The people who buy well now will be much better off in the long run.

Larry

Totally agree!

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

As smoking laws came in, pool halls declined and closed. Fact, over the past several years. No social commentary, just a fact. Non-smoker here, just observing.

As always, "correlation does not prove causation".

Pool has died off for numerous reasons, but the notion that anti-smoking laws caused it, or even contributed to it, is a pretty specious argument.

My local room is very nice. Clean, nice atmosphere, all Diamond tables (both 9' and 7') in great condition, but it gets almost no activity except for when the Joss tour has a couple events here and on league nights. However, the adjoining bar gets plenty of activity when there is a hot band on the weekend.

The same owner has two rooms in my area that are like that - pool on one side, night club on the other side. In both cases you gotta go outside and smoke. Doesn't stop folks from coming in to listen to the music, but there's very few pool players in the other room.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I believe the problem with the cue market is probably three-fold:


1. Reduced demand (due to fewer players)

2. Over supply (the market is saturated with mid-range custom cues)

3. "It's the economy, stupid" (or at least it was until recently)


Many cue dealers will likely find strong parallels between my business and the cue business. Big difference is that, unlike pool, interest in music is as strong as ever.


http://www.thefinancialist.com/the-vintage-guitar-markets-roller-coaster-ride/

Forget stock market volatility: Investment-minded guitar collectors have needed nerves of steel to survive the wild ride of the past two decades. In the 1990s, interest in vintage Martins, Fenders and Gibsons surged as baby boomers began collecting them in earnest, a change prodded on by a slew of detailed books published about the instruments. Guitar values rose 8.6 percent on average between 1991 and 1999 before flat-lining during the dotcom bust of the early 2000s.



Just like the stock market, guitar values recovered in the early 2000s and then skyrocketed in the Guitar 5_ Martin 1834years preceding financial crisis. The value of an excellent condition 1953 Gibson Les Paul, for example, jumped from $6,500 in 2001 to $10,500 in 2004. Then, between 2006 and 2008, the guitar index gained a remarkable 82 percent as buyers started paying unheard-of prices for vintage instruments.



But when the recession came, demand evaporated overnight. “The Wall Street guys speculating in the vintage guitar market had created a bubble,” said Ward Meeker, editor of Vintage Guitar Magazine. “And when their money went away, so did that high-end surge.” Guitar values plummeted 10 percent in 2009 and 24 percent in 2010. They kept falling until 2013, when the index finally rebounded.

Despite the recovered economy, I wouldn't expect the cue business to recover its former glory until renewed interest in playing expands the potential market again. Same old laws of supply and demand are what is driving it. That is the biggest reason I backed off from my plans to become a cue maker.

Of course, I may be interested in a nice custom player for myself... if the price is right, that is.

 

[63Kcode]

Despite the recovered economy, I wouldn't expect the cue business to recover its former glory until renewed interest in playing expands the potential market again. Same old laws of supply and demand are what is driving it. That is the biggest reason I backed off from my plans to become a cue maker.

Of course, I may be interested in a nice custom player for myself... if the price is right, that is.

The glut of new builders can also be attributed to the bad economy. Lots of unemployed people with severance packages, unemployment checks and free time picked up the hobby. Thinking they could turn it into business. With the economy picking up. Most will find it easier to make a living at something else. Cue building and collecting are both great hobbies. The ones who are screaming the sky is falling are the ones thought it was easy money.

JMHO

Larry

 

[WildWing]

As always, "correlation does not prove causation".

Pool has died off for numerous reasons, but the notion that anti-smoking laws caused it, or even contributed to it, is a pretty specious argument.

My local room is very nice. Clean, nice atmosphere, all Diamond tables (both 9' and 7') in great condition, but it gets almost no activity except for when the Joss tour has a couple events here and on league nights. However, the adjoining bar gets plenty of activity when there is a hot band on the weekend.

The same owner has two rooms in my area that are like that - pool on one side, night club on the other side. In both cases you gotta go outside and smoke. Doesn't stop folks from coming in to listen to the music, but there's very few pool players in the other room.

I hate to pick on you, it's not my intent. But your post has all the ammunition.

You said your pool room gets no activity. Neither do most pool rooms since the no smoking laws within the past decade.

Your adjoining bar gets plenty of activity when there is a hot band. Does it occur to you that plenty of guys are trying to meet girls in short dresses, and they're willing to forego the no smoking laws for this purpose? Happens all the time. Loud band, plenty of women, guys will smoke outside for a minute, and participate.

Pool rooms? The no smoking laws killed them. Pool takes long periods of time, going outside to smoke interrupts it, especially in money games. Not the same as the dynamic environment of the short-skirted bars, when the ladies may be just as willing to go outside for a smoke for a minute.

DC area, for example, since the no smoking laws:

Champions Shirlington - Closed
Champions Arlington - Closed
Champions Rockville - Closed
Champions Laurel - Closed
USA Billiards Laurel - Closed

Just a few examples, there are more. Pool is a different dynamic than the bar with the band.

Again, non smoker here. But if you want to argue, lose the politically correct, and come with facts. Pool rooms have suffered, while the bars with sufficient amounts of estrogen have survived. Sorry, the bar next door has nothing to do with pool, and the sexual drive inside it out-does the non smoking law.

 

[snowmon34]

The pool market isn't what it used to be, but it's not dead..

Azb is dead..
Page 1 is 5 hours old, and gaining.. lol

Open Billiards Market is where it's at right now..
It's unfortunate, but that's were all the action is..
A consistent fresh look with the first 20 offerings with a TON of participation..

 

[WildWing]

They are staying in the safe, adding one a year and hoping I live long enough to retire. Then I'll have my fire sale.

Thus my SW example as a collectable. I don't have doubts I'll be able to sell them when the time comes.

These are my favorite. Cues are not a good investment, unless bought in the 80s, or before, maybe a few 90s, but there are some who claim that their currently bought Southwest, Barry S, Hercek, Tascarella, or Searing will be a good investment.

A good tax free muni fund will return about 6 to 7 percent, and if you're in a decent situation, after tax will be about 9 percent, annual rate. The consistent stock funds do better, in a ten year timeframe. Try that on a cue purchase. I'd like someone to show me a cue bought in the past ten years (fairly long time in investment terms) that returned greater than about 9 percent annual. Sales slips, please.

Go ahead, make my day.

 

[desi2960]

not dead

it might be tough for all the guys that thought they could make a bunch of money flipping cues, or the guys that want 600 bucks for a sneaky.

but, i have built almost 500 cues in the last 20 years and have less than 50 on my website for sale today. i think selling cues is easy.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I hate to pick on you, it's not my intent. But your post has all the ammunition.

You said your pool room gets no activity. Neither do most pool rooms since the no smoking laws within the past decade.

Your adjoining bar gets plenty of activity when there is a hot band. Does it occur to you that plenty of guys are trying to meet girls in short dresses, and they're willing to forego the no smoking laws for this purpose? Happens all the time. Loud band, plenty of women, guys will smoke outside for a minute, and participate.

Pool rooms? The no smoking laws killed them. Pool takes long periods of time, going outside to smoke interrupts it, especially in money games. Not the same as the dynamic environment of the short-skirted bars, when the ladies may be just as willing to go outside for a smoke for a minute.

DC area, for example, since the no smoking laws:

Champions Shirlington - Closed
Champions Arlington - Closed
Champions Rockville - Closed
Champions Laurel - Closed
USA Billiards Laurel - Closed

Just a few examples, there are more. Pool is a different dynamic than the bar with the band.

Again, non smoker here. But if you want to argue, lose the politically correct, and come with facts. Pool rooms have suffered, while the bars with sufficient amounts of estrogen have survived. Sorry, the bar next door has nothing to do with pool, and the sexual drive inside it out-does the non smoking law.

Politically correct? Sure. Lol

Whatever. Guess you have it all figured out. No smoking laws killed pool, and it's got nothing to do with the lack of new players coming into the game.

Pool rooms like Steinway in NYC are booming. Why? Plenty of great players there. Snookers is bringing in lots of younger players and they seem to be doing fine.

Fact is there are precious few players in my area where there used to be lots. Hard to even find a bar with a table in the corner. Used to be every bar had at least one, but now they get pulled out because nobody plays the game like they used to. Kids today want everything to be easy. Pool is hard. They have little interest in doing anything they can't do on a smart phone. That's my facts.

As far as the places I mentioned, they ain't catering to the pickup crowd. Mostly good country or blues bands, and the customers are mostly guys with their wives or girlfriends, not some 20 something dude sniffing out chicks in push-up bras and crop tops.