Is the Object Ball just a "Mirrored Reflection" of the Cue Ball

[CJ Wiley]

it's the alignment that's crucial to great shot-making.

Originally Posted by Straightpool_99

I don't think I agree with anything you said in this post. Here is what I think 99,99% of people do lining up a shot:



So YOU think 99.99% of the people are pros?

So now the position is that the pros don't aim?

Wow, sometimes I wonder if they think we're psychic, superhuman, or just lucky. LoL

I assure everyone that I aim on every shot, however, it's the alignment that's crucial to great shot-making.

 

[His Boy Elroy]

I don't understand what you're saying exactly, although it appears you do, so that's really all that matters.

I guess we'll have to "agree to disagree"......if you ever want to play some, I'm open to you showing me how you do it "your way"....I'll be in Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and Missouri in the next three weeks, if you want to meet up :thumbup: 'My Game will be your Teacher'

Believe it or not, I have more pressing issues to deal with these days than pool. I just come over here to relax. That being the case I won't have a chance to get over to Iowa in the next three weeks; nevertheless, please keep us informed every time you plan on taking a road trip in the future. I'm from Chicago and if you're gonna be hanging out as close as Iowa I just might be tempted to meander over and learn of some of the other tricks you have up you're sleeve.

I post almost exclusively in shot - making threads, so I'm sure you've read most of them along with my e - mails. You have nothin' to be scared of... Really!

 

[pt109]

So now the position is that the pros don't aim?

Wow, sometimes I wonder if they think we're psychic, superhuman, or just lucky. LoL

I assure everyone that I aim on every shot, however, it's the alignment that's crucial to great shot-making.

I don't feel it's just alignment by the time someone plays your speed, CJ.
It's an accumulation of understanding and empirical knowledge.
....after all, a half ball cut goes different places, depending on speed and thickness of cloth.

I post this with respect....I appreciate you posting on AZ....
...and I like the way you put up your dukes here.

regards
pt

 

[His Boy Elroy]

I just deleted a second copy of post # 282. I don't know how in the world I ended up posting it twice.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We agree, it's not just alignment, however, a strong alignment is the result

I don't feel it's just alignment by the time someone plays your speed, CJ.
It's an accumulation of understanding and empirical knowledge.
....after all, a half ball cut goes different places, depending on speed and thickness of cloth.

I post this with respect....I appreciate you posting on AZ....
...and I like the way you put up your dukes here.

regards
pt

The accumulated knowledge and understanding is important, although the physical stroke is essential too. What's interesting is when I get someone trained to hit the cue ball precise and consistently their "aiming" improves exponentially. They can suddenly make balls using instinct!

I'm a firm believer that the aiming part of pool is the easiest when a player truly reaches their maximum acceleration DIRECTLY at the moment of contact. I can demonstrate this in a way that leaves very little room for doubt.

We agree, it's not just alignment, however, a strong alignment is the result of getting the body in a consistent position relative to the the shot-line. I did say it was "crucial," to great shot-making and I do believe this to be the case - it starts with understanding how the footwork aligns the left and right sides of the body. Pool is a two sided game, both play vital roles and must work together synergistically.

I actually use my left foot to favor one side of the pocket on very difficult shots off the end rail (and other challenging shots that aren't close to the rail). I just played a big gambling set today with a guy from outside the USA and used this on a number of occasions.....I've always considered long shots my forte, and they still are (even at this age).

When a player's alignment is precise they have the ability to favor parts of the pocket also by tip placement. I favor the inside of center, however, on new cloth that slides (like I played on today) I will also use outside spin to take advantage of the favorable pockets. The 'Touch of Inside' is very effective for worn cloth, and is touchy on new worsted cloth that hasn't been broken in.

 

[cfrandy]

So now the position is that the pros don't aim?

Wow, sometimes I wonder if they think we're psychic, superhuman, or just lucky. LoL

I assure everyone that I aim on every shot, however, it's the alignment that's crucial to great shot-making.

To clarify...I do not believe that 99.99% of the people aim or align themselves like the pros do. SP99 was the one that said they did!

To the question "So now the position is that the pros don't aim?" - I believe now and I have always believed that the pros do NOT aim...consciously! I believe the best shotmakers in pool have honed their skills so that aiming becomes unconscious. I do believe the only conscious task the best shotmakers will complete is in aligning themselves. Especially using TOI, what is there to aim at? The center or the edge. Wow...do you really have to think about it? I know what my target is long before I ever get down to shoot, how I align myself is all that matters! My preshot routine is what will give me perfect alignment. The rest is all subconscious!
The other day this woman with a gorgeous butt walked past the pool table...my eyes never left her butt, and I made the shot! So where was I aiming? :grin-devilish:

 

[duckie]

So,.....what is everyone aligning too? I mean if the big, new catch word is alignment, what is being aligned to what?

There is no such thing as alignments in a shot. It all placement. The feet are placed where you think they need to be for the shoot. The bridge is placed where needed for the stroke.

There is nothing to align to.

Roll all 15 balls on the table and just use the bridge to run them. It's all about placement of the bridge, feet, and so on. When using the bridge, what is there to align to?

Practicing 14.1 yesterday, a few shots were done one handed. I had to place my feet in the right position to allow me to place my grip on the right position in order to place the cue tip at the right spot on the cue ball. My head had to be placed properly in order to see where the CB needed to be placed.

The thought of aligning to anything has never entered my mind. It has always been where do I need to be placed to make the shot. Where everything gets placed builds off of where my grip needs to be placed to make the shot.

 

[jimmyg]

So,.....what is everyone aligning too? I mean if the big, new catch word is alignment, what is being aligned to what?

There is no such thing as alignments in a shot. It all placement. The feet are placed where you think they need to be for the shoot. The bridge is placed where needed for the stroke.

There is nothing to align to.

Roll all 15 balls on the table and just use the bridge to run them. It's all about placement of the bridge, feet, and so on. When using the bridge, what is there to align to?

Practicing 14.1 yesterday, a few shots were done one handed. I had to place my feet in the right position to allow me to place my grip on the right position in order to place the cue tip at the right spot on the cue ball. My head had to be placed properly in order to see where the CB needed to be placed.

The thought of aligning to anything has never entered my mind. It has always been where do I need to be placed to make the shot. Where everything gets placed builds off of where my grip needs to be placed to make the shot.

Funny how that "system" theory flies out the window when you actually have all the necessary God-given tools built right into our brains.

Was playing some tennis yesterday, was a little windy and our opponents were pretty good doubles players. Just didn't have time to calculate wind velocity, ball speed, change of body direction, grip adjustments, ball rotation, weather, and frame of mind into every shot....otherwise we probably would have won. Of course, I may just need a new "system". :wink:

J

 

[CJ Wiley]

Many players think they're doing this effectively, and they're actually not.

To clarify...I do not believe that 99.99% of the people aim or align themselves like the pros do. SP99 was the one that said they did!

To the question "So now the position is that the pros don't aim?" - I believe now and I have always believed that the pros do NOT aim...consciously! I believe the best shotmakers in pool have honed their skills so that aiming becomes unconscious. I do believe the only conscious task the best shotmakers will complete is in aligning themselves. Especially using TOI, what is there to aim at? The center or the edge. Wow...do you really have to think about it? I know what my target is long before I ever get down to shoot, how I align myself is all that matters! My preshot routine is what will give me perfect alignment. The rest is all subconscious!
The other day this woman with a gorgeous butt walked past the pool table...my eyes never left her butt, and I made the shot! So where was I aiming? :grin-devilish:

Whether we're aiming consciously or unconsciously, we're still doing it.

Aiming is one of the easiest aspects of pool, (one of) the most challenging aspects (imo) is precise, and consistent cue-ball contact, while accelerating EXACTLY at the moment of impact.

Many players think they're doing this effectively, and they actually have a lot of room for improvement - they just don't "real eyes" it, and the reasons are simple.

'The GAME is the Teacher'

 

[HawaiianEye]

(one of) the most challenging aspects (imo) is precise, and consistent cue-ball contact, while accelerating EXACTLY at the moment of impact.

I agree. Most of the times when I screw up it is because I "babied" the shot and let up on it.

Aloha.

 

[cfrandy]

Whether we're aiming consciously or unconsciously, we're still doing it.

Aiming is one of the easiest aspects of pool, (one of) the most challenging aspects (imo) is precise, and consistent cue-ball contact, while accelerating EXACTLY at the moment of impact.

Many players think they're doing this effectively, and they actually have a lot of room for improvement - they just don't "real eyes" it, and the reasons are simple.

'The GAME is the Teacher'

It's like putting, decelerate at impact and you miss the putt!

When I used to teach, a drill I used was to simply pocket 10 racks of balls into the corner pocket with NO object ball. After contacting the cueball touch the cue tip to the cloth (I would lay a piece of cloth over the table cloth) approx. 18 inches down the target line. This would teach not only how to accelerate through the cueball, it also taught how to accelerate through the ball while maintain your alignment to the target line.

 

[DAVE_M]

So,.....what is everyone aligning too? I mean if the big, new catch word is alignment, what is being aligned to what?

There is no such thing as alignments in a shot. It all placement. The feet are placed where you think they need to be for the shoot. The bridge is placed where needed for the stroke.

There is nothing to align to.

Roll all 15 balls on the table and just use the bridge to run them. It's all about placement of the bridge, feet, and so on. When using the bridge, what is there to align to?

Practicing 14.1 yesterday, a few shots were done one handed. I had to place my feet in the right position to allow me to place my grip on the right position in order to place the cue tip at the right spot on the cue ball. My head had to be placed properly in order to see where the CB needed to be placed.

The thought of aligning to anything has never entered my mind. It has always been where do I need to be placed to make the shot. Where everything gets placed builds off of where my grip needs to be placed to make the shot.

Aiming = Alignment, CJ is just trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Aiming = Alignment

That's one way of defining the terms, but I think it's too broad to be really useful for either word. For example, alignment can mean alignment of the body's parts with each other (stance), alignment of the stance with the shot line (setup), alignment of the eyes with the shot line (vision center), alignment of the CB with the OB (aiming or orientation), etc. All of these things (and more) are parts of "aiming", but they each also deserve individual attention during learning and practice.

To begin with, how do we learn the best stance ("body alignment") for our personal physiology? Let's start with a definition: our best stance is the one that aligns our body parts so that our stick and stroke are aligned naturally/effortlessly with our line of sight.

Next might be how do we get our body into that exact stance every time?

Then how do we align that stance exactly with the shot line every time?

Of course, these must all become second nature and part of an "organic whole" to really work for us, but each of them also has its own issues and difficulties which can (must?) be productively addressed individually.

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

When I adjust the valves on my motorcycles, there are three marks that have to be in alignment in order to check the clearances.

One mark on the flywheel, one mark on the camshaft, and one mark on the camshaft cap.

In the four pics below is the same cut shot, but at different position on the table. The fourth is also about trying to have a set bridge length and how useless it really is in the long run.

You can not get in the same same stance for each shot even tho the cut angle is the same.

Using the shot pics....point out what you use to align to like when adjusting valves.

Just using the first one......where are the references used to "align" the body parts to?

There are none.

It is all about placement. Where you can place your feet in order to place your grip where it needs to be in order to place your bridge hand such that the cue travel is in the direction you wanted and your head is placed such you can see where to place to CB.

This whole idea that the same stance can be used on any and all shots that are possible in pool just shows how short sighted alot of people are about the world of pool shots.

I got more and more of these real world pool shots pics that can disprove most theories on how to play pool. I bring real pool shots into the discussion

What they do prove is that pool is about being versatile in your playing style.
Couple of those shots, I do goofy footed, meaning I reverse my feet placement, not alignment,.....right foot forward instead of left when shooting. I bet there are very few that have even thought about trying this.

You got make your pool playing about you and not what others do. It doesn't matter what Joe Pro or Randy Has Been says...its about what you and your playing means to you. How you express yourself through your style of play. You can not express yourself using someones else's style of play.

Great shot making.....what does that really mean? I've made some great shots in 14.1, even though not seen, that were great. And not once did any form of alignment was used. It was all about proper placement for the shot position.

You can not overlooked the impact the ball position have in getting the proper placement for your stance for that shoot.

 

[DAVE_M]

That's one way of defining the terms, but I think it's too broad to be really useful for either word. For example, alignment can mean alignment of the body's parts with each other (stance), alignment of the stance with the shot line (setup), alignment of the eyes with the shot line (vision center), alignment of the CB with the OB (aiming or orientation), etc. All of these things (and more) are parts of "aiming", but they each also deserve individual attention during learning and practice.

To begin with, how do we learn the best stance ("body alignment") for our personal physiology? Let's start with a definition: our best stance is the one that aligns our body parts so that our stick and stroke are aligned naturally/effortlessly with our line of sight.

Next might be how do we get our body into that exact stance every time?

Then how do we align that stance exactly with the shot line every time?

Of course, these must all become second nature and part of an "organic whole" to really work for us, but each of them also has its own issues and difficulties which can (must?) be productively addressed individually.

pj
chgo

Alignment - arrangement in a straight line, or in correct or appropriate relative positions
Aiming - point or direct at a target.

My cue is a straight line (if it's not warped ) and the tip (point) is relative to the point on the ball that I intend to hit (target). So, I don't see how anyone can say that aiming and alignment are different. Unless you want to be a stickler and start talking about Cue Alignment and Body Alignment. That's when people start selling DVD's.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

....
Couple of those shots, I do goofy footed, meaning I reverse my feet placement, not alignment,.....right foot forward instead of left when shooting. I bet there are very few that have even thought about trying this.
.

Can't say I have for several of these shots I would either use my cue extension or a bridge.

I would like to think most serious players would do the same thing. :wink:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Alignment - arrangement in a straight line, or in correct or appropriate relative positions
Aiming - point or direct at a target.

My cue is a straight line (if it's not warped ) and the tip (point) is relative to the point on the ball that I intend to hit (target). So, I don't see how anyone can say that aiming and alignment are different. Unless you want to be a stickler and start talking about Cue Alignment and Body Alignment. That's when people start selling DVD's.

Words can be defined differently for different purposes. One of the useful purposes is to break things down into components for understanding/learning/teaching. Ever heard the phrase "useful distinction"?

I agree that CJ's statements should be taken with a boulder of salt, but in this case I think he makes a useful distinction.

pj
chgo

 

[DAVE_M]

Words can be defined differently for different purposes. One of the useful purposes is to break things down into components for understanding/learning/teaching. Ever heard the phrase "useful distinction"?

I agree that CJ's statements should be taken with a boulder of salt, but in this case I think he makes a useful distinction.

pj
chgo

I do agree that breaking it down for teaching/learning is helpful, but everyone is different and learns differently. Teaching someone how to play billiards is not something that can be done globally. That's why so many object to the "snooker stance".

My point was, there are so many variables, that for someone to tell you what you are doing right or wrong, is absurd. IMO, it all boils down to fundamentals, like any other sport/game. Now, how you define fundamentals, is up to the individual.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Threads like this are so painful. We should all just boycott them.

 

[cfrandy]

Threads like this are so painful. We should all just boycott them.

Since you have nothing to add, why don't YOU become the 1st to boycott!