Is the "push" shot foul pretty new?

hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Clearly both players played a push shot in this section of video, one was a deliberate foul that was also a push shot, the other shot Caras made a ball and it counted as good, the ref did not say anything.

Is the push shot foul more recent than this video?

https://youtu.be/-JCdJ08_M3Y?t=13m27s
 
hang-the-9 said:
Clearly both players played a push shot in this section of video, one was a deliberate foul that was also a push shot, the other shot Caras made a ball and it counted as good, the ref did not say anything.

Is the push shot foul more recent than this video?

https://youtu.be/-JCdJ08_M3Y?t=13m27s
Click to expand...

At one point the saying was, "if the double hit is too fast to actually see, it's not a double hit." That is, of course, BS.

As far as Mosconi's push-shot safety, that is another old-time technique. If your opponent is on the first foul and you are against the rack (as Mosconi was after his break shot), you could work the cue ball pretty far into the rack with a long-duration push. I suppose such shots should explicitly not be allowed when taking a foul.

Did you notice the evil eye Mosconi gave the ref just before he played the push safe? It's hard to find good help.

I think the combo Caras played may have been there when Mosconi played safe, but maybe he couldn't get to it.

Caras started to play the combination with a clean thin hit on the first ball but then he took the double-hit option with more control.

Later on the miss at 21:34, judging from Willie's reaction the ball rolled off.

Lots of little wrinkles in this match. Later at 24:05 right after Caras has shot with the bridge, he notices a ding in his shaft and has to tend to it. Evidently the idiot equipment supplier didn't know how to remove flashing from cheap, cast bridge heads even back in the 1960s.
 
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This is fascinating and rare footage of Mosconi vs. Caras, really classic stuff. I've never seen this match before and know little about it or the National Pocket Billiard Championship held in Lake Shore, IL back then. It appears to be circa 1960's sometime as they are playing on a Gold Crown I table. Both men would be in their late 40's to early 50's by then, but still in the height of their power. I wonder if anyone knows more details about this event.

I'm almost 100% certain that neither Mosconi or Caras ever played in Johnston City or the Stardust tournaments in the 60's, while several of their counterparts did, such as Irving Crane, Luther Lassiter, Joe Balsis and Mike Eufemia. I believe Caras returned to tournament pool in 1967 at age 57 and won the U.S. Open 14.1 Championship after a ten year layoff. And Mosconi played in the Burbank tournament finishing second to Joe Balsis in 1966. I'm not sure where this tournament fit into the scheme of things back then and would love to know more about it.

This may be the only good Straight Pool footage of these two guys going at it. I know they played in the Legends of Pool in the 1980's, but their games had diminished by then. Thanks for finding this rare footage. I enjoyed it very much. Neither man wasted much time shooting, and I loved it when Mosconi missed and went over and sat down in the stands. Caras never let any of his antics bother him though. I'm sure he was used to it by now. :wink:
 
jay helfert said:
... Neither man wasted much time shooting, and I loved it when Mosconi missed and went over and sat down in the stands. Caras never let any of his antics bother him though. I'm sure he was used to it by now. :wink:
Click to expand...
I also liked the contrast of how M and C reacted to the ref. Caras played as if it was the most natural thing in the world to have some idiot waving his hands over the table and shouting in his ear while he ran out.
 
jay helfert said:
This is fascinating and rare footage of Mosconi vs. Caras, really classic stuff. I've never seen this match before and know little about it or the National Pocket Billiard Championship held in Lake Shore, IL back then. It appears to be circa 1960's sometime as they are playing on a Gold Crown I table. Both men would be in their late 40's to early 50's by then, but still in the height of their power. I wonder if anyone knows more details about this event.

I'm almost 100% certain that neither Mosconi or Caras ever played in Johnston City or the Stardust tournaments in the 60's, while several of their counterparts did, such as Irving Crane, Luther Lassiter, Joe Balsis and Mike Eufemia. I believe Caras returned to tournament pool in 1967 at age 57 and won the U.S. Open 14.1 Championship after a ten year layoff. And Mosconi played in the Burbank tournament finishing second to Joe Balsis in 1966. I'm not sure where this tournament fit into the scheme of things back then and would love to know more about it.

This may be the only good Straight Pool footage of these two guys going at it. I know they played in the Legends of Pool in the 1980's, but their games had diminished by then. Thanks for finding this rare footage. I enjoyed it very much. Neither man wasted much time shooting, and I loved it when Mosconi missed and went over and sat down in the stands. Caras never let any of his antics bother him though. I'm sure he was used to it by now. :wink:
Click to expand...

I put on my detective hat and deduce the following information.

At the introduction of this video, the host mentions that this match is the second time these two men matched up for Wide World of Sports. This is filmed in Chicago. He also says that Caras won the first match in the fall of the previous year.

According to Caras' obituary in the New York Times, they matched up in New York for Wide World of Sports in 1962. Here's a link to that obituary: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/09/sports/jimmy-caras-93-champion-at-pool-dies.html

This video is the second Wide World of Sports meeting shot the following year which must be 1963.
 
More digging:

On page 26 of the Kingston Daily Freeman newspaper of Kingston, NY on January 15, 1964, there is a short article advertising a Caras appearance with free admission at a local pool hall. Part of the article tells of his career highlights including his performances at this broadcast and the previous year.

It reads in part "He won 125-82 in 1962 and in 1963 he whipped Mosconi, 125-26, with high runs of 55 and 44." This video ends with a score of 125-26.

This all confirms that this video was most definitely their second Wide World of Sports meeting which took place in 1963.
 
The match was filmed in the ballroom of the lake shore athletic club .
If you watch the video carefully, especially right near the end, you can catch small glimpses of the swag trim around the room..

45480-DE20140130-03-e6705f07.jpeg


Located at 850 North Lake Shore Drive ( construction began in 1924) and opened in 1927, the LSAC was designed by Jarvis Hunt.

Its numerous top-notch features included the largest indoor swimming pool in the country,
a bowling alley, and a dedicated billiard room..

Early on, the club established itself as a major center for athletic activities. In fact, Olympic trials for the 1928 Olympics were held at the club. ( 1928 was the year that the " Olympic flame" was introduced)

Johnny Weissmuller ("Tarzan" in the movies) participated in these trials and swam in a number of other swimming matches held at the club.

The building was renamed the Lake Shore Center in 1977 when it was acquired by Northwestern University for use as graduate housing. However, after 30 years of deferred maintenance, Northwestern University vacated the structure in 2007 in anticipation of its eventual demolition for condominium redevelopment.

The building was saved from demolition, was repaired and is now a luxury condo building.

This historically geeky moment was brought to you by the Chicago Billiard Museum.
" we make the meaningless meaningful" lol
 
Table

The rails looks to have wide trim (much wider than standard GC) and the top of the rail looks to have a finish on a hardwood rail cap.....the trim and rail finish is odd... Hard to tell with the black&white. The production 1961-1974 GC1 had melamine/formica rail cap/top, the GC in the video looks to have a high gloss finish on hardwood...?
Maybe the table has special order for the customer?

What color are the aprons?



Rob.M
 
Interesting stuff, first thing I noticed was the ref, sure I saw Mosconi get up from one
shot after the actions of the ref. Thanks for posting.
 
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