Is the Shaft the most important or does the Butt make a difference also?

shortman

shortman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have probably a very redundant question-questions about different shafts and the importance of the butt. Over the last 10 months I have had some health issues with lower back and heart. I have basically retired and about the only activity left for me that holds any interest is pool. I was a 4-6 day a week golfer 2-handicapper but will not be able to play golf for at least for another 8-12 months. So over the last 10 months I have put in a pool room in the house and play a lot of local tourneys in 9-ball and 8-ball.
One of my mini-projects was exploring cues and shafts (it has been a great time), as I had basically quit playing pool 23 years ago after my 4 sons had grown and left the nest (except when they need money). Right now I am playing with a Schon, Lucasi, Mezz, Predator, CC, McDermott, Pechauer, Joss, Joss West, Scorpion, Jacoby, Steve Klein, Adams 1975ish era, Viking, Capone, Dominiak, Espiritu, Omen, Samsara, Jerico, Meucci 2005 till present, Richard Black, and Skip Weston.
The shafts I have been playing with these cues are the shafts that came with the cues, Smart Shaft, 314-2, Z2, OB-1, and just recently Dominator. In a thread that I read recently it was stated that the balance and the butt had very little influence on the playability of the cue.
I personally do not find this to be true. I have been playing 8 (race to 5), 9 (race to 11), and 10 ball (race to 11) matches with myself against different cues. First of all I would like to say that I have enjoyed and found that each of the cues have a lot of nice things to be said for them. That being said a few of the cues have constantly stood out and the shafts have been the OB-1 and 314-2 with the exception of the Z2 when I was really in-stroke, all tips are morri med, everest, or sniper.
So far the cue combos that really stood out were Steve Klein with ivory joint and Radial pin----OB-1, Espiritu with 5/16-14 pin----314-2, Schon 5/16-14 pin----314-2, Samsara Radial pin----OB-1, Richard Black 5/16-14-------OB-1 AND Mezz 5/16-14----OB-1 (in that order).
To me there was a definite difference in hit and control depending not only the shaft and tip but also the quality of the Butt.



Cheers---------------------Shortman
 
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WOW!!! You, sir, have a lot more patience than I could ever imagine. I think your testing is very cool. Unfortunately, I don't have the funding to build a collection of cues to match yours. In fact, I'm a one cue at a time kind of guy.

My first cue was a Players. I picked it up for 50 bucks and used it for maybe a month before winning a second cue (cuetec). To be perfectly honest, I can't remember what either of these cues felt like, except that at some point, the weight bolt in the players became loose and I cracked the shaft. I never really liked it after that. The cuetec managed to grow legs and walk out of the pool room one day and I haven't seen it since. I played with bar cues for awhile after that and realized I liked those better than both cues I previously had. But I ended up finding a Mcdermott with 4 shafts for $50. I bought it and broke 3 shafts before buying an intimidator shaft. This is the first time I can remember actually feeling my cue. It felt like complete ****. But I paid $100 for the shaft and I figured I might as well use it. But the more I used it. The more I liked it. After almost a year with that cue, I posted it up in a "lock game." Turns out I didn't have the nuts. Cueless again, my friend let me borrow his Michaely until I could get a new one. This was my first experience with a custom and again, I hated it. But after a week or so, I felt it starting to grow on me. I found a mystery cue not too much longer after that and bought it for $40. For some reason, this one felt like heaven. Then through a reliable source, I find out that the shaft was indeed made by Mr. Jack Michaely. It was starting to make sense. Then about a month ago, I got a good deal on a Kikel and that's what I've been using since then. The Kikel was the same story though. At first it felt very stiff. But after using it, I can't imagine playing with anything else. I played with a Mcdermott the other day. The hit was so mushy I couldn't stand it.

Alright that was a little long but...
It seems I adjust to the cue. Regardless of whether it's stiff or whippy, long or short, light or heavy, I'll learn to play with it. Now that I know, I don't think I'll ever buy another cue.

BTW: It might just be me. My baseball bat back in high school was way too big for me but it's all I had. I made it work.
 
Ok....

Things like balance, diameter, and joint type do indeed influence the "hit" of a cue.....But there isnt ANYTHING unique about a specific brand's butts when compared to the above factors.... Meaning that any diameter,joint, and balance can pretty much be replecated on ANY cue from a $30 MF to a 15K Szam......

When speaking of quality as it reffers to butts the only thing that really matters is that the "personal" factors mentioned above are suited to you and that there is a certain quality of craftsmanship that goes into the construction of the butt... i.e no buzzes, good wood.. etc...

All things being equal, a production butt manufactured by, say, Falcon or McD, will perform exactly as well as anything coming out of any custom shop.....
 
I would like to ask was the shaft size the same on all cues, 13mm or did that matter, that makes a difference to me.
 
poolandpokerman said:
I would like to ask was the shaft size the same on all cues, 13mm or did that matter, that makes a difference to me.
Click to expand...

314-2 = 12.75
smart shaft = 12.70
Z2 = 11.75
dominator = 12.5
OB-1 = 12.75
OB-1 = 12.2 should come in Tuesday for Radial and 5/16-14
shafts with cues were = +/-13.0
 
surprisingly the butt makes quite a difference

I recently put this theory to the supreme test. My sister gave me one of the very cheap Budweiser cue sticks complete with the lovely original vinyl case. She knew I was working with cue sticks and her heart was in the right place.

The joint is not ridiculously small, I happen to know that some world class players use a smaller joint, so I figured what the heck. I cut the original black plastic joint collar off and removed the off centered pin. I replaced the joint collar with top quality phenolic and put in a maple dowel and quality pin centered in the butt. I then cut an all new quality shaft for the stick and figured I had a sneaky pete for the bar rooms. To be blunt the stick played so far below my other sticks that I soon gave up on the idea.

Unless one part is truly awful playability is determined from the tip to the handle and wrap with the tip being most important and the ferule not too far behind. I'd have to say that shaft and joint are of almost equal importance to each other and the butt is of the least importance. However the butt is important enough that I proved, at least to myself, that a junk butt made a junk stick.

Hu


shortman said:
I have probably a very redundant question-questions about different shafts and the importance of the butt. Over the last 10 months I have had some health issues with lower back and heart. I have basically retired and about the only activity left for
Click to expand...
 
yes,butt makes a difference.
I bought Joss shaft from my friend but unfortunetly i was forced to w8 for butt to this shaf so i borrowed Bear butt with the same pin i started to play.It wasnt same cue as with original Joss butt.hit become softer,cue was not so stiff and sound and feedback of that hit was different,i didnt like it.When i get fianlly Joss butt cue becomes something a lot better for me.
Ofcourse balance point were different also the weight but there was soemthing else that creates that firm hit with Joss.I've read that joint have no influence for the cue playability and i belive in it cuz its Dan Janes words.
 
14\1 lover said:
yes,butt makes a difference.
I bought Joss shaft from my friend but unfortunetly i was forced to w8 for butt to this shaf so i borrowed Bear butt with the same pin i started to play.It wasnt same cue as with original Joss butt.hit become softer,cue was not so stiff and sound and feedback of that hit was different,i didnt like it.When i get fianlly Joss butt cue becomes something a lot better for me.
Ofcourse balance point were different also the weight but there was soemthing else that creates that firm hit with Joss.I've read that joint have no influence for the cue playability and i belive in it cuz its Dan Janes words.
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The difference is in your head. Nowhere else. A butt is a butt. Those words came from Richard Black.

The playability is in the part of the cue that touches the ball. Tip, ferrule, then shaft. After that, it could be a maple butt with stainless, or a sneaky pete with a radial. The butt contributes nothing to the performance of the cue - it's only aesthetics, balance and "feel". Blindfold tests have proven it.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
The difference is in your head. Nowhere else. A butt is a butt. Those words came from Richard Black.

The playability is in the part of the cue that touches the ball. Tip, ferrule, then shaft. After that, it could be a maple butt with stainless, or a sneaky pete with a radial. The butt contributes nothing to the performance of the cue - it's only aesthetics, balance and "feel". Blindfold tests have proven it.
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i dont agree with that,construction of the butt is also important,try to compare Meucci power piston butt with Black butt and then write something again.I gave extreme example but the differecne is there.I respect Richard for beautifull cues but not always cuemakers ideas are the only truth in the world.
I can see that this topic can same as with aduio forum and disscusion about cables hehehehehehhe
Man first try to compare then talk,i dont care about Richard's marketing version of cuemaking
 
I was asking myself that a while back. I have a meucci sneaky and bought a power piston. I switched shafts on the cues and found that the power piston provided a much stiffer feel and a slightly harder hit. PART of it could have been the joint not being a full wood-to-wood but the butt had to have something to do with it.


*edit - wtf, we both post about a PP butt at the same time! haha
 
"Feel" has nothing to do with raw cue performance. If you put your OB-1 shaft on two cues with the same joint pin, it will deflect the exact same amount. It will spin the ball the exact same amount. There are no "performance" butt characteristics.

Bob Meucci compared a broom handle versus a Predator 2 butt, and the broom handle won out in terms of less deflection. Do you believe this? All the characteristics of a butt have to do with personal "touchy feely" things. Nothing concrete or imperical in terms of hard data. Find a butt you like, and stick on a performance shaft. This is why pro players love aftermarket shafts. They're no longer slaves to their endorsers. Corey Deuel used to play with a Scruggs with 314. Then, he went to a Viking with a 314. Then he went to a 5280 with a 314. Now he has a Woodpecker with a 314. Ask him how the different butts have affected his game. He won the most with the Viking and 5280.
 
Bob Meucci compared a broom handle versus a Predator 2 butt, and the broom handle won out in terms of less deflection. Do you believe this?
Because the broom handle hit softer.
 
I agree with Randg on this. I've heard the only thing that matters in regards to how the cue ball reacts is from the tip to about 6 inches down the shaft from the tip. Everything else is personal preference. A flat faced joint such as wood to wood with a radial pin has a wonderful feel imo. But, the joint does not affect the way the cue ball will spin. I watched a teenager playing pool yesterday with a house stick. He was having trouble hitting the ball. I was going to offer some advice when I noticed there was no tip on the cue. After changing cues he did better.
 
Okay I don't know alot. but For me shaft is the most important yes, but Still Butt is also important, one day I remember i had two different cues, I put the same shaft into these two different butt and I feel different in my cueball control - because one butt was thinner when you hold it than the other... Thats about it thanks for reading :)
 
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If you change the butt you will certainly notice a difference. I think the original question is whether or not the butt plays any role in how you play. You will swing a cue with different weights differently. But, if you find the cue weight and size you like then the only thing that effects the way the cue ball reacts is the tip and shaft.
 
There is a lot to be said for a good quality butt. I don't care who you are.

BVal
 
I'd tend to agree . . .

9 on the snap said:
I hear the Brazilian Butts are pretty good.
Click to expand...

You should always get a nice firm butt to compliment that high performance shaft . . . I mean, they're really meant for each other . . .
 

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