Is there an established system for discussing stroke speed?

[ENGLISH!]

So I did end up having time to read through all the pages, and boy, did that turn into an argumentative mess real quick.

There were a lot of valid opinions on both sides... but I'd say a lot more off-topic than anything else. There's great stuff in here about feeling stroke, lessons, etc. But the closest to the point was Scotty and Randy's system.

The idea being that if I needed to write down on a piece of paper how to hit a particular shot and hand it to someone (or a computer) to shoot, it'd be fairly accurate assuming we were speaking the same language on stroke speed. (lag system, diamond system, Scott+Randy, etc)

So.. the point of my original question was figuring out a good common ground language for speed, regardless of whether not both parties have to learn it first.

But anyway, all input is good. And as with any good discussion, it's bound to get heated from time to time.

If you wrote a number down on a piece of paper & handed it to every player in Buffaloes Pool Hall on a crowded night other than some APA league night, I doubt that any player in the hall except maybe JoeyA would know what speed you would want the ball hit.

Just food for thought.

 

[mattkenefick]

If you wrote a number down on a piece of paper & handed it to every player in Buffaloes Pool Hall on a crowded night other than some APA league night, I doubt that any player in the hall except maybe JoeyA would know what speed you would want the ball hit.

Just food for thought.

I understand that.

The fact that I'm on this forum asking goes to show that it's not a ubiquitous solution. But that doesn't mean there can't be one in the future.

Ghost ball technique has become pretty popular, simple to use, and many people know it. But not everyone does.

Maybe some simple measuring system, a scale, could become popular for the hit speed; in the future.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I understand that.

The fact that I'm on this forum asking goes to show that it's not a ubiquitous solution. But that doesn't mean there can't be one in the future.

Ghost ball technique has become pretty popular, simple to use, and many people know it. But not everyone does.

Maybe some simple measuring system, a scale, could become popular for the hit speed; in the future.

Ghost ball is merely an introduction means for most. Some stick with it but most move on from it rather quickly even though it remains as the primary explanation of what must occur.

Please see my PS in post #77.

There are way TOO many required speeds when one plays the game at the upper level for them to be communicated properly. It is much like when some say an aiming method is an objective method. The requirements are too many & we would need to be like computerized robots.

Instead we have a subconscious mind to make the calculations to arrive at the appropriate speed. Naturally a beginner does not have a large data base from which to pull but if they stay hitting shots at only speeds 1 to 5 etc, they will never develop an appropriate data base from which to pull the proper shade of purple between red speed 1 & blue speed 2. or something between 3 & 4 or 4 & 5. they will only know speeds 1,2,3,4, & 5.

Your intentions may be well meaning but I think any effort will prove futile.

Naturally if two or more individuals trained together they would have some common understanding but then there still needs to be the 'understanding' or FEEL of the collisions between the balls for all of the various angles to get the CB to go where & stop where one wants with any common understanding of the prescribed speeds.

The thing is that when one gets to that point they will no longer be operating under the prescribed speeds, even if they think that they are. The subconscious mind will be influencing the body & the stroke speeds.

It is a bit of an interesting subject though.

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

 

[Tony_in_MD]

So ladies and gentleman, what have we all learned from this thread?

 

[duckie]

There is no substitution for quality table time.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Yep. I don't think anyone would debate against that.

There is no substitution for quality table time.

 

[Scott Lee]

Exactly Bob! Great post! It's about figuring out your own playing speed, and associating it to the numerical scale. Obviously you have to have a repeatable stroke for it to work most efficiently. To me, the value in just being able to adapt to a different table's playing conditions very quickly is invaluable by itself.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The number assignment to explain different speeds is a great way to communicate different speeds between players. The catch is that both players need to be familiar with that system. Maybe it is your 50 years of experience that blocks you from seeing this. I have been playing for just over 5 years now, I learned the numbered speed system many instructors teach and I practiced many speed drills, to the point that I wish we would lag for break rather than flip a coin. When I was more of a beginner there were many shots I would look at and decide I would use a 1 speed or a 3 speed, I dont need to do that as much anymore but occasionally I will fall back to that method of deciding how much speed I need to use. Every table I play on I lag a few times to get an idea of how fast the table plays compared to my home table which I am most familiar with, there are other things I test to determine this but that is the most basic and the first test I always make. The more I play the more natural the chosen speed for each shot is but it takes time and everyone has to start somewhere.

 

[GoldCrown]

So ladies and gentleman, what have we all learned from this thread?

What I learned:grin: The SPF system that includes the speed control system seems to be the easiest to understand and translate to another party if they are on there same page.

 

[3kushn]

Mother Drill #5 is all about Speed Control.

One of our most productive workshops!

randyg

This ^^^^^^ But it only considers the short rails. Test the longs, then you're at home.

 

[ENGLISH!]

What I learned:grin: The PSF system that includes the speed control system seems to be the easiest to understand and translate to another party if they are on there same page.

IF any two people are on the same page with any method of communicating speed it will be easy to 'translate' from one party to the other.

For you to say that the SPF speed control system is the easiest to understand & communicate is nothing more than Grand Standing with no real basis for that statement, especially if not qualified with something like, 'for me'.

In no way has this thread supported what you're saying here.

What does it matter if the speed that can be easily communicated is NOT an actual fit for the shot?

Someone tells you to shoot a shot with speed 2, but what is actually needed is speed 2.335 so when you use speed 2 & you come up short you hook yourself.
What good is that?

This is getting much like the aiming threads where some just refuse to admit the truth of the matter.

The requirements are far too cumbersome to be filled by only 5 designations & are too cumbersome for any system to be of any real use.

It comes down to FEEL that is learn over time & experience.

Why do pros playing doubles point to a location where they want or would like the ball to be instead of calling out 'hit it at speed 1' or 'hit it at speed 2'?

Even when you shoot an actual shot with intended speed 2, how do you know that you actually shoot it at speed 2 or whether or not your subconscious mind takes the actual intended location & augments the actual stroke to say a 2.255? Then when you tell a team mate to shoot a shot at a 2 speed he actually does so he then comes up short. Again, what good is that?

You can run sales adds all you like. That does not change the facts of matters.

Like I said somewhere in here, those that have paid for it are going to try to defend it.

I would suggest that anyone that wants such a limited 'system' give the distances what ever designations they want to call them & then just practice them.

But then try the suggestion I made in the PS of post #77 shooting the same actual shot form different positions & see how well you do.

 

[GoldCrown]

IF any two people are on the same page with any method of communicating speed it will be easy to 'translate' from one party to the other.

For you to say that the SPF speed control system is the easiest to understand & communicate is nothing more than Grand Standing with no real basis for that statement, especially if not qualified with something like, 'for me'.

In no way has this thread supported what you're saying here.

ENGLISH......The question is "what have I learned". The comments made refer only to me. No grandstanding. No sales. No nothing. I don't give a rats behind who does or does not use the 12345 system.
I'm not looking for support...but since you brought it up you are a poor reader. Some other members do use the same system. This thread has been interesting. I do appreciate the difference values AzB members have. But yours.... I have no idea you are talking about. Do what works for you. Enjoy pool. When is your book "99 Critical Replies To Everything" coming out.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I have learned that golfers will shorten their swing depending upon the shot. But what the hell that has to do with having a system for discussing stroke speed I will never know.

Oh and I learned how best to bang my cue butt on the ground after a missed shot so not to break the butt cap.

Finally I learned that English knows less about the stroke speed drill than I thought, but still feels the need to pontificate about it ad-nasum. Don't anyone tell him that there are actually 10 speeds in the drill. Since I am on ignore he shouldn't be able to read this.

Important things to learn, ya think? :smile:

 

[GoldCrown]

I have learned that golfers will shorten their swing depending upon the shot. But what the hell that has to do with having a system for discussing stroke speed I will never know.

Oh and I learned how best to bang my cue butt on the ground after a missed shot so not to break the butt cap.

Finally I learned that English knows less about the stroke speed drill than I thought, but still feels the need to pontificate about it ad-nasum. Don't anyone tell him that there are actually 10 speeds in the drill. Since I am on ignore he shouldn't be able to read this.

Important things to learn, ya think? :smile:

To get on his ignore list. Is there a fee. Does it work by request. If someone supports a certain system do they qualify. Seriously if something works it's best to rub 2 Rocks together to complicate the results.
More on what I learned. Golfers should wear 2 pair of pants in case they get a hole in one. Pool players have bigger sticks, more balls, get felt on the table and do it on cue.

 

[ENGLISH!]

ENGLISH......The question is "what have I learned". The comments made refer only to me. No grandstanding. No sales. No nothing. I don't give a rats behind who does or does not use the 12345 system.
I'm not looking for support...but since you brought it up you are a poor reader. Some other members do use the same system. This thread has been interesting. I do appreciate the difference values AzB members have. But yours.... I have no idea you are talking about sometimes. Do what works for you. Enjoy pool. When is your book "99 Critical Replies To Everything" coming out.

Well, I think this is just a disingenuous post... at least in some regards.

But, The readership can make their own determinations.

Anyway, I'm glad for you that you hooked up with a fit for you & are happy with how you're playing. Enjoy as best that you can.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

PS More designations makes the system more cumbersome & more difficult to use by adding more options. That is the issue... trying to use systems for what they should not be used. In the end it will come down to one using time & experience learned feel if one is ever going to get really good at speed control & that is something that just can not be communicated or taught, as Jimmy Reid said. It rather amazes me what Players know that many instructors just seem to not understand. Well, I guess I'm not really amazed by that.

 

[ENGLISH!]

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I am still trying to be first on his list, with big red letters to boot.

To get on his ignore list. Is there a fee. Does it work by request. If someone supports a certain system do they qualify. Seriously if something works it's best to rub 2 Rocks together to complicate the results.
More on what I learned. Golfers should wear 2 pair of pants in case they get a hole in one. Pool players have bigger sticks, more balls, get felt on the table and do it on cue.

 

[GoldCrown]

I am still trying to be first on his list, with big red letters to boot.

Just goes to show you are using the wrong system. You have been classified as a 3 where
1 is prime. Therefor you're in a 3-1 system that is hard to understand and communicate. If I said try harder to be a 1 it would be difficult because there is no 2. And 2 has the right to be # 1 as their system is more effective. I cannot help you here or I'm a Grandstanding salesman. What have you learned from this thread. A "3" is not bad as that is my default stroke speed. The #3 (if you look it up) represents the best player on the team. To be #1 change your system. Whatever you did to be a 3 was not good enough. Try 3 times harder next time. Best to you....and Set, Pause, Finish....it's as easy as 1,2,3,4,5...but you already knew that.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here's a fictional story about communication.

There were these two old guys in the Senility ward...

They actually thought that they were having an informed intelligent conversation... & laughing at everything that they said.

It seemed they were doing nothing but gossiping about another stable gentleman that would visit them from time to time & they were showing how actually mentally challenged they really were.

The nurses & visitors were laughing at them every time they heard the foolishness that they were saying.

Then when they passed on & their brains were studied & it seemed that they had a common 'system' of communicating that was useless to everyone else but themselves.

So... no one really knows what the purpose was to all of the gossiping that they were doing about that other stable gentleman...

as it served no real purpose to anyone but those two old guys in the Senility Ward.

The moral of the story is that even if one has a system of communication that is common to two or a few individuals...

It is useless as a form of communication to anyone outside of that shared system.

Further study of their brains indicated that the information that they were communicating within their shared system was inaccurate & non specific & was only generally correct but not specific enough for any real informative communication or functional use.

They later found out from family members that the two old guys went Senile when they tried to expand their communication to make it large enough to allow for specific accurate information that might actually be useful.

When doctors asked about the gentleman that visited them, a Family Member said that that old guy never went in with them on their 'system'. He just used his FEELings & gave hugs & pointed to what he wanted.

The Scientists ask why he did not go in with the other 2 old guys. The family member said that using his FEELings & just pointing to what he wanted worked better for him & everyone that was getting what he was pointing to.

Just a fictional story as food for thought.

Best Wishes for ALL.

 

[GoldCrown]

Then when they passed on & their brains were studied & it seemed that they had a common 'system' of communicating that was useless to everyone else but themselves.

Best Wishes for ALL.

You don't need brains to be a Boss.

When the body was first created, all the parts wanted to be Boss. The brain said, "I should be Boss because I control all of the body's responses and functions."

The feet said, "We should be Boss since we carry the brain about and get him to where he wants to go."

The hands said, "We should be the Boss because we do all the work and earn all the money."

Finally, the asshole spoke up. All the parts laughed at the idea of the asshole being the Boss. So, the asshole went on strike, blocked itself up and refused to work.

Within a short time, the eyes became crossed, the hands clenched, the feet twitched, the heart and lungs began to panic, and the brain fevered. Eventually, they all decided that the asshole should be the Boss, so the motion was passed. All the other parts did all the work while the Boss just sat and passed out the shit!

Moral Of The Story: You don't need a brain to be a Boss----any asshole will do. THIS SYSYEM WORKS... Guess we're a bunch of ........ oh never mind:killingme:

 

[ENGLISH!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The ONLY one that tells that story is the A$$hole.:wink:

I heard one where the brain decided the body should go to a doctor & the doctor said he could do a colostomy & make the A$$hole totally unneeded & could even cut him out & throw him away.

The A$$HOLE heard what the intelligent doctor said & he then said...

"Okay, I have seen the light & the ERROR of my ways. I now know that I need all of you more than you need an A$$HOLE... So I won't tell the story about what the A$$HOLE did."

The 'system' only works if the shot fits one of the designations.

It's the same as the aiming 'system'.

When there are 100 requirements & ONLY 10 solutions, then there 90 requirements that can NOT be met by the supposed 'system'.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

PS Were you a cheerleader for losing football team in H.S.?