Is there an established system for discussing stroke speed?

There are several number based systems for stroke speed (PAT teaching for instance) and even in snooker there is a system like this, based on length of ball travel. It would be difficult to use any other method to objectively measure speed (technically it is possible, but not practically). This should not be confused with methods to teach speed control by various stroke mechanics. (Length of pull-back and follow-through, etc). That is not to say that one could not combine the two for an overall system of teaching and measurement (that would obviously be taylored to the individual).

One could for instance find the most comfortable and accurate speed for an individual to use, based on length and pullback of the cue and assign a value to that speed (for instance 5 out of 10, measured by length of travel). Then with that starting point it would be easy to find other, natural numbers. But if you are looking for a universally accepted speed measurement I think the PAT measurement comes closest.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
There are several number based systems for stroke speed (PAT teaching for instance) and even in snooker there is a system like this, based on length of ball travel. It would be difficult to use any other method to objectively measure speed (technically it is possible, but not practically). This should not be confused with methods to teach speed control by various stroke mechanics. (Length of pull-back and follow-through, etc). That is not to say that one could not combine the two for an overall system of teaching and measurement (that would obviously be taylored to the individual).

One could for instance find the most comfortable and accurate speed for an individual to use, based on length and pullback of the cue and assign a value to that speed (for instance 5 out of 10, measured by length of travel). Then with that starting point it would be easy to find other, natural numbers. But if you are looking for a universally accepted speed measurement I think the PAT measurement comes closest.
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How Ya Doing?

I'm not familiar with PAT or at least not under that acronym. Can you give a quick intro?

The different distance of swing/stroke is what almost all Pro Golfers do for less than full swings & they play for over $1,000,000.00 at every weekly tournament.

I know of NONE that makes a full swing at different speeds.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
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Tony_in_MD said:
I am still trying to be first on his list, with big red letters to boot.
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Beat you to it. All I had to do is make one post where I politely asked him to show us some proof of what he was saying. He responded by threatening to report me for daring to question him.:rolleyes:
 
ENGLISH! said:
How Ya Doing?

I'm not familiar with PAT or at least no under that acronym. Can you give a quick intro?

The different distance of swing/stroke is what almost all Pro Golfers do for less than full swings & they play for over $1,000,000.00 at every weekly tournament.

I know of NONE that makes a full swing at different speeds.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
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Rick, what in the world has golf got to do with anything being discussed? Here's a hint- NOTHING at all except for one thing...it gives you a false example to use to attempt to make the real instructors look bad. Wonder why you don't use baseball as an example. You have said you have coached the little kiddies on batting. Well, when batting, you make a full swing and just control the speed of the swing for how hard you want to hit.

How is it that you want to come across as some kind of pool expert, continually go against what the majority of instructors teach, yet you state that you don't even know what they are teaching? Why not give examples of pool for your points instead of some other sport that has zero bearing on the issues being discussed? Is it really just because you have no real examples from pool to make any points with? Have you even tried what the instructors teach?
 
Neil said:
Beat you to it. All I had to do is make one post where I politely asked him to show us some proof of what he was saying. He responded by threatening to report me for daring to question him.:rolleyes:
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Balderdash!

I made no threat at all. I said perhaps management might take notice.

It is how you play EXTREMELY fast & loose with the truth that is why, IMO, EVERYONE should Ignore You & EVERYTHING that you 'say'.

IMO, You've killed any credibility that you might have once had.

I think that is 2 of 3 post since your return directed at me.

Keep it up & I am rather sure that Mr. Wilson or Mike will take note.
 
Neil said:
Rick, what in the world has golf got to do with anything being discussed? Here's a hint- NOTHING at all except for one thing...it gives you a false example to use to attempt to make the real instructors look bad. Wonder why you don't use baseball as an example. You have said you have coached the little kiddies on batting. Well, when batting, you make a full swing and just control the speed of the swing for how hard you want to hit.

How is it that you want to come across as some kind of pool expert, continually go against what the majority of instructors teach, yet you state that you don't even know what they are teaching? Why not give examples of pool for your points instead of some other sport that has zero bearing on the issues being discussed? Is it really just because you have no real examples from pool to make any points with? Have you even tried what the instructors teach?
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You show that you know NOTHING about batting when playing baseball & probably nothing about being an athlete & nothing about bio-mechanics.

Is that now 3 of 4 posts since your return directed AT me?

Instead of showing how Socrates would classify your mind, how about presenting rational, logical, proof how a speed system works in practical use.

Oh, I forgot. Rational & Logical are in the same category for you as what you know about batting when playing baseball.

10 designations are insufficient for the 100 or more of requirements just as the limited numbers for that supposed aiming 'system' are insufficient to make it truly objective.

I see that the prayers I said for you while you were away seemed to have gone unanswered.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

PS I need to get around to actually putting you on ignore. I guess I should not have done things out of order. You may have given me an Idea for a new mode of operation where you are concerned.
 
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Neil said:
How is it that you want to come across as some kind of pool expert, continually go against what the majority of instructors teach, yet you state that you don't even know what they are teaching? Why not give examples of pool for your points instead of some other sport that has zero bearing on the issues being discussed? Is it really just because you have no real examples from pool to make any points with? Have you even tried what the instructors teach?
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To be answered in 10,000 words or more.
It's not about proven systems. It's about going South when told to go North. I played with a person that will do everything possible to prove the instructor/teacher is wrong. Has nothing to do with listening, trying, agreeing. He can't play a lick. Just has to do with being defiant , non-creative and so for the sake of a bar room argument.
By the way. Congrats on being #1...but be careful ..there is only way down from there...and T in MD wants your spot.
Question is. Does ENGLISH has any credible references. Can anyone vouch for his pool.
 
The 'reference' is the spot you want the CB to go. In practical use that will require an unlimited number of stroke speeds & hence NO 'system' can meet those needs.

That is why the ONLY way to get very good at CB control is time spent to get the experience to build a REAL data base in one's subconscious mind.

As Jimmy Reid said, the ONLY thing that he can NOT teach is speed control.

Each impartial member that has not PAID to obtain a system can make their own determinations as to who to believe.

A PAID customer of a PBIA instructor & their contrived supposed 'system' or...

the likes of Jimmy Reid & Jimmy Reid himself.

Best Wishes for ALL & Your Families.
 
There are many different opinion and I'm sure some work i developed a game to do exactly what you oviously are trying to develop, and its called wanna win'hookem'.. its a safety game that helps you develop speed control on a variety of different pool shots while allowing you to develop side to side and end to end speed without getting to technical, Its actually a lot of fun
 
ENGLISH! said:
The 'reference' is the spot you want the CB to go. In practical use that will require an unlimited number of stroke speeds & hence NO 'system' can meet those needs.
That would be true..except: Most people are not that accurate. In real life there is a margin of error to all position shots. I'd say a lot of people are operating at a "low resolution" when it comes to shot position, increase the distance and you'll see that it's not quite so easy to stop on a dime, anymore.
That is why the ONLY way to get very good at CB control is time spent to get the experience to build a REAL data base in one's subconscious mind.
That is true in a sense, but a number system could give you a starting point for instruction, and thus is not useless.
As Jimmy Reid said, the ONLY thing that he can NOT teach is speed control.
Hmm..Well that is kind of true for all physical skills. He could teach you what to aim at for instance, but you need to aquire the skill to aim the stick etc. I get what he's saying, that shot speed is heavily dependent on feel. That does not in itself disqualify any attempt at objective systems/measurement and certainly does not disqualify attempts at helping people learn it by simple rules.
Each impartial member that has not PAID to obtain a system can make their own determinations as to who to believe.

A PAID customer of a PBIA instructor & their contrived supposed 'system' or...
I get it, there have been a lot of shills around here lately, accounts created solely to promote certain individuals etc, nothing new about that. I guess certain people give a discount if you rave about them on AZ? Hard to know what's real and what's fake here. The point is though, that the message is what one should pay attention to. I don't really care about the PR stunts and the politics, as I do about pool.
the likes of Jimmy Reid & Jimmy Reid himself.
I have an old VHS of JR's "No time for negative". While the instruction is ok, I disagree with some of the techniques he teaches. He made them work for him, that does not mean they will automatically work for everyone else. Some of it's spot on though. Like all instruction, there are things that may not be right for you. Does not mean it's bs
Best Wishes for ALL & Your Families.
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Oh, and I forgot: The PAT drill has 4 speeds, (each speed a length of the table). In this video you see a close approximation of the four speeds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_D4rFspOVE
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Each impartial member that has not PAID to obtain a system can make their own determinations as to who to believe.

A PAID customer of a PBIA instructor & their contrived supposed 'system' or...

the likes of Jimmy Reid & Jimmy Reid himselfs
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Are you to too tight or afraid to try a SPF instructor. You cannot dispute what you have not tried. Is Mark W and Jerry B for real. Is Scott and Randy for real. Are you a joke. Can you run more than 3 balls. Heard you can't
 
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ENGLISH! said:
You show that you know NOTHING about batting when playing baseball & probably nothing about being an athlete & nothing about bio-mechanics.

Is that now 3 of 4 posts since your return directed AT me?

Instead of showing how Socrates would classify your mind, how about presenting rational, logical, proof how a speed system works in practical use.

Oh, I forgot. Rational & Logical are in the same category for you as what you know about batting when playing baseball.

10 designations are insufficient for the 100 or more of requirements just as the limited numbers for that supposed aiming 'system' are insufficient to make it truly objective.

I see that the prayers I said for you while you were away seemed to have gone unanswered.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

PS I need to get around to actually putting you on ignore. I guess I should not have done things out of order. You may have given me an Idea for a new mode of operation where you are concerned.
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Actually, I played baseball from about age 6-25. Was pretty good at it. As far as being an athlete, I was high point man on our wrestling team, threw a shotput in practice that broke the state record, was a real good runner, so I think I know a little about being an athlete. So, your assumptions and insults are out of line.

No one here except you is talking about precision position play. We are discussing a way to communicate stroke speeds. What Randy and Scott have come up with is the best way available, and it works very well. Odd that you would not want to see the benefits of such a system. Everyone understands what lag speed is. The other speeds in their system are nothing more than extensions of the same thing. Very logical thing to do, actually.

Why do you find it odd that I would post to you? You state that you want discussion, but then get offended when asked to actually discuss. I find that rather odd.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Oh, and I forgot: The PAT drill has 4 speeds, (each speed a length of the table). In this video you see a close approximation of the four speeds:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_D4rFspOVE
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I appreciate your post, but if Jimmy Reid & a GoldCrown are giving lessons in the same hall, then I am walking over to Jimmy Reid's table. One can extend that logic out to other individuals if they choose to do so.

Here's the thing. That rail in that demo sounded soft.

So those arm stroke speeds are good for THAT table with THOSE rails on THAT day.

Go to a different table tomorrow & those same arm stroke speeds are no good & no longer valid for those target distances.

Anyone can 'teach' whatever they choose. A potential student can pay for whatever they choose.

That does not make something a viable & practical 'system' regardless of what impression is given or taken.

What also needs to be learned is how much speed is taken off of the CB by ALL of the different angled collisions.

What 'system' is there for finishing off with that of which is also required to even attempt to make the other 'system' in any way practical & of any real use?

As I said before, I think the credit for success is perhaps given to the wrong 'entity'.

I suggested in a PS of one of my posts to set up a close cut in a side pocket & then go shoot that shot from all over behind the string & pocket the ball & then lag the CB to the head rail & then do it & go back to the foot rail & see how successful one is from all of those different starting points & different collisions between the CB & the OB.

Reality vs Drills. IMO Reality wins every time.

All of the Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

PS I am very glad that you did not allow those bullies from a while back to run you off.
 
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GoldCrown said:
Are you to too tight or afraid to try a SPF instructor. You cannot dispute what you have not tried. Is Mark W and Jerry B for real. Is Scott and Randy for real. Are you a joke. Can you run more than 3 balls. Heard you can't
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I have four Grown Children that played the major sports & Golf & never really got into pool. I would not want any of them anywhere near Scott or Randy for pool lessens.

I've run out in 8 ball more times than Carter has oats & won the most run outs awards in every league that I ever played way back in the day. I also always finished 2nd. for league MVP by fractions of one point to a semi pro that only played enough to qualify for playoffs. This is in the City O New Orleans are & not in a one blinking light one cross road lil country town.

Is this just another Grand Standing Tactic to 'attack' the messenger rather than provide any solid rational logical explanation to support your position other than just "the system works" said by YOU a biased paying customer.
 
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Neil said:
Actually, I played baseball from about age 6-25. Was pretty good at it. As far as being an athlete, I was high point man on our wrestling team, threw a shotput in practice that broke the state record, was a real good runner, so I think I know a little about being an athlete. So, your assumptions and insults are out of line.

No one here except you is talking about precision position play. We are discussing a way to communicate stroke speeds. What Randy and Scott have come up with is the best way available, and it works very well. Odd that you would not want to see the benefits of such a system. Everyone understands what lag speed is. The other speeds in their system are nothing more than extensions of the same thing. Very logical thing to do, actually.

Why do you find it odd that I would post to you? You state that you want discussion, but then get offended when asked to actually discuss. I find that rather odd.
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Ignored... for the same reasons that IMO everyone should.
 
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1sttbone said:
you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink
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Horses that have been roped & broken & a bit forced into their mouths can be lead.

Intelligent human beings should never be lead by any means, but should make their own determinations once they have enough unbiased actual honest information.
 
ENGLISH! said:
No offense... but it would seem that you do not understand what you read.

Either that... or you are just making a 'wise guy' crack to try to defend your side which you do not know how to defend.

I did NOT relate the different clubs in golf to playing pool at all. I explained how golfers get different distances out of the SAME club & why they do it that way as opposed to trying to vary the force based on the same length swing.

If that was the better method they would be using it because they are playing for more than $1,00,000.00 at every weekly tournament.

Just food for thought,

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

PS Take a page hole reinforcement donut & put it nearly straight out from a side pocket but 1/2 ball on the head string side. Place a ball on it & then go behind the string line & pocket the ball into the side pocket & lag the CB to the head rail. See how well you do & then do it from all across the table. how many speed variations do you think there will be between lag speed #1 & speed #2?
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I can defend my side but others have already done so, it just seems that you refuse to accept that it can work. This thread was originally about how to convey shot speed accurately to another person. It can be done if the 2 people practice a number system and both are adept and familiar with it. I also agree that once you get down to less than 1/2 of a table speed it would be very hard communicate that speed to another person. I can shoot shots that are 6" long cue ball travel shots but only because I practice pushing 2 balls that are very, very close to each other up the rail making completed shots for safety practice. Most people dont even know you can shoot a shot like that because they think they will double hit the cue ball, but I discovered the cue ball moves away from the cue faster than your stroke speed. But I cannot convey this speed to another person. Lag speed=yes, 1 1/2 table lengths=yes, etc.. it is the very short travel shots that are difficult to explain. Now if someone tells me to hit lag speed or double length lag speed I can do that pretty easy because I practice it, I have a baseline that I put a number speed on and it works. Just like golfers put numbers on golf clubs that relate to distance, which I believe you said in an earlier post numbers do not work well for people because early cavemen did not use a numbered speed for how hard to throw a spear. But cavemen Im sure did practice throwing that spear and the used some type of way to memorize how hard to throw that spear. If they had numbers they probably would/could have assigned them to how hard they wanted to throw the spear.
 
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