I 'asked' in another thread.
I would like to know how long you have been playing.
The truth is the truth.
You seem to have an issue differentiating between the truth & the hype.
Best Wishes for You & Yours.
Rick
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Is there an established system for discussing stroke speed?
- Thread starter mattkenefick
- Start date
I 'asked' in another thread.
I would like to know how long you have been playing.
The truth is the truth.
You seem to have an issue differentiating between the truth & the hype.
Best Wishes for You & Yours.
Rick
I just started playing. Bought a Sears cue. A book on how to play right. And I dream of being a star someday. I do influence easily. I believe the world will have peace someday. Is Johny Cash a pay toilet.
Well...
You seem to like gimmicks & that's fine... for you.
Perhaps you should get a job with the BCA, as it is a trade organization that tries to help with the SALE of all products related to billiards regardless of whether it is a gimmick or not.
Best 2 Ya.
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Yeesh, this forum is just Brutal sometimes...Anyway Here's my 2 cents worth:
There seems to be no standard, the point is to understand the terms of whoever you're learning from.
I like this definition from Ewa's book for idiots:
- Pocket Speed: As soft as possible to pocket the ball.
- Soft: Just hard enough to travel the length of the table.
- Medium: Just hard enough to travel the length and come back - lag shot speed
- Hard: More than Medium
Speed is about as objective as you can get. The ball stops where you want, or goes too far, or not far enough. How is that subjective? It's for sure dependent on many factors, like table size, type of cloth, thickness of the hit, etc. Maybe that's what you're referring to?
And the whole point of doing the speed numbers based on table lengths/diamonds travelled (rather than, say, the mph that the ball is hit) is that it translates to different tables, cloth, conditions, etc.
I don't think you see 'speed' in the same vein.
Can you say that a specific spot shot & putting the CB in a specific location is stroke speed x?
I don't think so. It depends on the size of the table, the cloth, the weather, what type of cue ball, the weight of the cue, where on the CB one is hitting with the tip, etc.
If
I tell you to hit it with speed 2 & you come up short. I tell someone else to hit it with speed 2 & they come up long.
How is that in any way objective?
Yes, the final result is objectively(truthfully) whatever it is but it is dependent on many variables & combinations of variables & we have not even put spin into the equation.
It comes done to FEEL & that is based on experience & NOT any numbered type system.
I think it will still come down to feel even if we can get to a point where we can dial in a feet per second speed on the CB based on some set parameters & have that individually logged in as it relates to each individuals subjective stroke. Even then the other parameters will be in play as it relates to position & that interpretation will remain subjective.
Best 2 Ya.
Anyway Here's my 2 cents worth:
There seems to be no standard, the point is to understand the terms of whoever you're learning from.
I like this definition from Ewa's book for idiots:
- Pocket Speed: As soft as possible to pocket the ball.
- Soft: Just hard enough to travel the length of the table.
- Medium: Just hard enough to travel the length and come back - lag shot speed
- Hard: More than Medium
But even the phrase "as soft as possible to pocket the ball" is subjective given the conditions & the specific shot at hand.
How many different stroke speeds will that entail even on the same table at the same time & weather cloth speed depending on the cut angle & distance to the pocket & where an individual hits on the CB?
Best 2 Ya.
No doubt - the variance is there, and will always be there. Question is, what is the best way to communicate with other humans - I don't think you can gauge speed effectively due to changing tables and other shot variables, but you need to be able to describe how hard to hit the ball.
Of course it's all subjective and always changes. This is why I say that the point is to understand the terms of whoever you're learning from. OR, in terms of the OP, finding a way to communicate with your buds at the pool hall.
I think the OP with his diagram was trying to be WAY too detailed. So, not ball speed but soft/medium/hard hit. If he really wants speed, stick with a baseball radar.
No doubt - the variance is there, and will always be there. Question is, what is the best way to communicate with other humans - I don't think you can gauge speed effectively due to changing tables and other shot variables, but you need to be able to describe how hard to hit the ball.
Of course it's all subjective and always changes. This is why I say that the point is to understand the terms of whoever you're learning from. OR, in terms of the OP, finding a way to communicate with your buds at the pool hall.
I think the OP with his diagram was trying to be WAY too detailed. So, not ball speed but soft/medium/hard hit. If he really wants speed, stick with a baseball radar.
My diagram was just a quick representation of the idea, not really well planned out.
It's not actually about how quick the ball moves in feet-per-second, or weather / conditions, etc but about saying rolling the ball from diamond 1 -> 3 could be "Speed #1" and diamond 1 -> 6 could be "Speed #2".
Then when you get comfortable with your stroke in controlling it that way, you could tell someone "Stroke about Speed #2" and they'll know that's roughly 5 diamonds of roll.
It's about trying to find a common ground for communicating speed the same way you can talk about English or aiming systems.
No doubt - the variance is there, and will always be there. Question is, what is the best way to communicate with other humans - I don't think you can gauge speed effectively due to changing tables and other shot variables, but you need to be able to describe how hard to hit the ball.
Of course it's all subjective and always changes. This is why I say that the point is to understand the terms of whoever you're learning from. OR, in terms of the OP, finding a way to communicate with your buds at the pool hall.
I think the OP with his diagram was trying to be WAY too detailed. So, not ball speed but soft/medium/hard hit. If he really wants speed, stick with a baseball radar.
I did not see the edit until gong back after your post here.
It's one thing to tell someone to roll a ball 3 diamonds or at speed one. It is entirely another to tell them to get the ball to roll 3 diamonds or back to the other rail after making contact with an object ball as that is dependent on the cut angle & other variables.
Time & experience are the best solution & then a doubles partner or teammate just points to where they want the ball.
To hit a shot in a mechanical manner at any supposedly defined speed is why the result is usually never what one wants it to be.
That is just not how the ART of the Game is played.
I once 'coached' a mentally challenged neighbor of a friend of mind to beat him a game of 8 ball on a 9' Gold Crown Table. He did exactly what I told him to do including what english to put on the ball. I think it was the visual aids & the pointing out of the CB path & exactly where I wanted the ball to go & to stop that was the best form of communication.
Easy, soft, medium, firm, hard, distance travel, etc. are all relative & are high in 'miscommunication' levels especially without other qualifications. What about the levels between soft & medium & medium & hard, etc.?
It's sort of like golf club shafts. There use to be ladies, senior, reg./meduim, firm, stiff, & extra stiff. Then frequency matching came along & it got to single digit cycles per minute or second. If a 250 was reg./medium & 260 was firm there was also 255, then 265 was stiff & 270 was in between stiff & extra stiff. now that was just for off the rack shafts. If a pro wants a shaft at 272 or 273 he can get it. So.. it went from a range of 6 total flexes to basically an endless array at the professional level. The flex has to do with the individuals swing speed ability. (Pool is so far behind golf it is ridiculous.)
Best Wishes for You& Yours,
Rick
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You can discuss amounts of English in tips. Half tip, full tip, two tips, etc.
You can discuss aiming with a lot of systems: Diamonds, ghost ball, mirrors, etc.
Stroke speed is relative though. It's hard to say "Shoot it softly" because that can mean anything. Is there any scale that exists for stroke speed people generally practice?
I was thinking something like this where you could practice it, get consistent, but then also be able to talk about it by saying... "Speed is about 3 diamonds."
EDIT: I'm not looking for advice for myself about stroke, I'm trying to figure out a way to break down the barrier of communication between players. Like if you're shooting with a friend and suggesting how to shoot something... When I say "Soft" it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to him. I have friends that play in league, and they've told me about stories when they say "Shoot soft" and the guy shoots way too hard. And that's because of different understandings of what "Soft" means. I was trying to find a way to solve the communication issue and be able to say "Shoot it with half tip forward, full ball, with about a 2 diamond stroke speed." Speed is the only thing that currently can't be communicated correctly from person to person.
Anyone have ideas or know of something that works well?
Grip pressure and backswing. Nobody can teach you this. You have to learn what works for you. Many good players will tell you that they control speed by aplying different pressures on their grip.
And now, I am waiting for a new "experiment" by "az science guys" And the results of the experiment : "Grip pressure HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPEED CONTROL"
Pls, don't "buy" that stuff. It will hurt your game.
Play well
If you want to talk to a beginner about speed, teach them the RandyG system. Speed 1 is a lag. Speed 2-4 send the CB 2 diamonds farther each. Speed 5 is three table lengths.
Freddy "The Beard" describes speed well in his Banking With The Beard book. He shows an example bank and defines how far the OB will bank back and forth given his speed terms (e.g. "Soft", "Firm", "Hard"). Then he refers to these terms throughout the book.
I like Phil Capelle's books but I wish he would change to the above systems. Phil uses a confusing Miles Per Hour scale. If you can understand how many MPH you are hitting the CB, you are better then me.
Freddy "The Beard" describes speed well in his Banking With The Beard book. He shows an example bank and defines how far the OB will bank back and forth given his speed terms (e.g. "Soft", "Firm", "Hard"). Then he refers to these terms throughout the book.
I like Phil Capelle's books but I wish he would change to the above systems. Phil uses a confusing Miles Per Hour scale. If you can understand how many MPH you are hitting the CB, you are better then me.
I won't repeat what I have already said, but I think a visual reference of what another wants the ball to do & then let the actual shooter try to get that done is the best method.
It is extremely difficult to execute with any type of precision based on a 'mechanical' instruction. If you take out the shooter's subconscious mind & all that it has learned from even a small sampling, I think you are limiting the shooters chances for real success & the result will be much like flipping a coin.
You tell them X & the result is bad & they will tell you that they did exactly what you told them to do. Tell them to put the ball here & they will do the best that they can with success or failure but they will be learning.
Just my take.
Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick
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Of course getting good at speed control will take experience and intuition. But the original poster asked not about developing speed control but instead DISCUSSING speed.
It seems he was asking about communicating speed to another.
What does warp speed mean to you?
There are too many variables in play & that come into play for any graduated gauge to have any real meaning to another individual without the time & experience to FEEL the differences.
I was not just talking about getting good at the execution of appropriate speeds.
I think I laid out why I think any mechanical type execution of that kind of communication will not have any consistent desired results.
Some individuals have no feel & may never have any feel & perhaps for them, some mechanical approach via communication of a teammate or coach may be the best that they will ever be able to do.
They probably will never be an artist in the game.
I think anyone can develop feel with nothing but the right attitude & desire.
Best 2 Ya,
Rick
He cannot answer. Cannot relate to 1-2-3-4-5 or Lag Speed, Stroke Speed, or Break Speed. Cannot simply pick a system and use that to communicate. Pick a language and communicate. Such as ....per Randy & Scotts system it's 2 or 3 or whatever.
Or by Joe Blows system it's a whatever speed. Start with common universal agreed upon system and we have it. Done.
I took a lesson from Scott Lee and he showed how to adjust to the speed of any table in a matter of minutes. I will PM him to see if he will chime in. If you get a chance his lesson is worth the cost based on this quick fix and a couple other insights. On top of it you get a video to reinforce what you learned. I wish I hadn't been so hung over for the lesson, lol.
To all out there the drill that is taught by Scott Lee & Rand G will groove your stroke and give you astonishing speed control. Practice intelligently and with diligence and it will amaze you. Pretty soon you will hit a # 3, basically the hardest you ever have to hit a shot to pocket a ball, 18 out of 20 times and the other two will be soooo close.
The nuts is that you can go into a new room and table and get locked in right away by doing the same drill for a few minutes.
No kind of soft, no medium firm, no hard or between soft and med. Just 1-5 and you are ready for any table.
Bicep to forearm and the ball s do what you want. If I do a few minutes of that drill and a couple of more in just a few minutes and then play my game is many balls up quickly as opposed to starting cold and just banging some balls before playing.
If your speed is your concern you owe to yourself to get into this as it shows you at the same time if you are finding center ball and if not why not. Splendid drill (s)!!
The nuts is that you can go into a new room and table and get locked in right away by doing the same drill for a few minutes.
No kind of soft, no medium firm, no hard or between soft and med. Just 1-5 and you are ready for any table.
Bicep to forearm and the ball s do what you want. If I do a few minutes of that drill and a couple of more in just a few minutes and then play my game is many balls up quickly as opposed to starting cold and just banging some balls before playing.
If your speed is your concern you owe to yourself to get into this as it shows you at the same time if you are finding center ball and if not why not. Splendid drill (s)!!
