Is there anything to be learned from the Asian players?
- Thread starter (((Satori)))
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Technique-wise, Taiwanese players are generally more textbook than the Filipinos. This is largely because of the rigorous systematic training regime that they have there. This is quite similar to the way snooker as a sport is being handled in the UK. Thus, this also explains why Taiwanese players have a common playing style in terms of stroke (mechanical) and how they conduct themselves around the table. Consistency is the name of their game.
Filipinos meanwhile couldn't be any more different. Back when I was a kid living in a village not too far from Ronnie Alcano's hometown, people viewed pool as, quite oxymoronically, an indoor street game. The big-time money players honed their temperament thanks to the high-pressure environment in which they played. The young guns would typically look at how the grown-ups play the game, copy them and integrate their own style to it, and polished their game so that their mechanics, while not textbook, gets the job done. I have been playing snooker since I was a teenager (I'm 23 now), but I still have traces of the wavy Filipino stroke thanks to years of playing pool as a child. Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante are your prototypical Filipino players--highly unorthodox but effective cue action, and unparalleled knowledge of the table attained from years of playing on tough conditions (humidity, slow cloth etc).
Just wanna share this online article by a Filipino sports journalist and World Pool Championship TV commentator Bob Guerrero on why Filipinos have dominated this game for quite some time now: https://sg.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/t...ipinos-learn-billiards-masters-164655974.html
"The money game culture is harsh, unforgiving, and Darwinian. You sink or you swim. You either lose money or make it. But it works. It has toughened up generations of Pinoy players, steeling them for the pressure of tournaments, and forcing them to work on their technique on their own, or risk going hungry."
Filipinos meanwhile couldn't be any more different. Back when I was a kid living in a village not too far from Ronnie Alcano's hometown, people viewed pool as, quite oxymoronically, an indoor street game. The big-time money players honed their temperament thanks to the high-pressure environment in which they played. The young guns would typically look at how the grown-ups play the game, copy them and integrate their own style to it, and polished their game so that their mechanics, while not textbook, gets the job done. I have been playing snooker since I was a teenager (I'm 23 now), but I still have traces of the wavy Filipino stroke thanks to years of playing pool as a child. Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante are your prototypical Filipino players--highly unorthodox but effective cue action, and unparalleled knowledge of the table attained from years of playing on tough conditions (humidity, slow cloth etc).
Just wanna share this online article by a Filipino sports journalist and World Pool Championship TV commentator Bob Guerrero on why Filipinos have dominated this game for quite some time now: https://sg.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/t...ipinos-learn-billiards-masters-164655974.html
"The money game culture is harsh, unforgiving, and Darwinian. You sink or you swim. You either lose money or make it. But it works. It has toughened up generations of Pinoy players, steeling them for the pressure of tournaments, and forcing them to work on their technique on their own, or risk going hungry."
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Re: the Filipinos, my assumption is that it is their desire to make their lives more comfortable and lift their family or families-to-be from hardship. I also think that these Pinoy pros are also very intelligent persons. If they had the opportunity to be in school I believe they will excel too. Their approach to the game; being that it's not scientific, is what gives them the creativity on the table. As Parica said in an interview before, Pinoys do not have the time to practice. They just play and learn as they go. Since they are intelligent, they pick up things easily and are able to apply what they learn.
I think these are some of the main reasons that help propel them to be among the very best.
I think these are some of the main reasons that help propel them to be among the very best.
a typical filipino would do regular stuff using his hands instead of a machine or an equipment. this is significant especially in daily tasks - carpentry, cooking, cleaning, etc. that is my theory - we use our hands a lot. somehow, we master using it everyday. ask efren, bustamante, orcollo, or any other Filipino pool player if he can do the laundry using his hands instead of a washing machine. most of them can.
I tried getting people to play 235 here (US), and only one person in the pool hall thinks it will benefit his game and now we play the game once every 1-2 days of a goal who can get one 5. Sometimes we will switch to 3 cusion. Most players say there is no point of playing carom on a normal pool table since it has pockets... I try to state it is just a practice to familiar the characteristics of the cue ball, target ball, different strokes, English, tangent line deflectiins, follow through pattern etc... Most claim playing these games will throw your stroke off, is that true? I mean if you cant hit the ball where you want in 235 it is the same like missing a ball in a pocketed game.
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If you were talking strictly about the Pinoys, I'd have agreed with you up to a certain extend. But the Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese players' behavior during a match is exemplary.
In any case, this is irrelevant to the discussion. We're discussing the technical merits of their success.
I agree 100%. Almost all sports are like this. When is the last time you saw a boxer that was well healed before he got to the top. Johnnyt
Filipinos and Taiwanese/Chinese have to be put in separate categories.
Filipinos stay in action to preserve their pecking order. For them pool is a way to make money and get out of being poor.
Taiwanese generally don't have escaping poverty as a motivator. What they do have is a family and societal expectation to excel at whatever they choose to do. So they believe in the power of intense and structured training.
Same for the Chinese except that is coupled with escaping poverty.
So yes, desire and opportunity. They have the opportunity to be trained formally and to train competitively with world beaters.
Do you notice that the younger generation of Filipinos and even few older ones no longer follow Efren or Busti's technique ? They adapted a more stable stroke, as you said, they are intelligent and they learn from others, this time they learned supposedly from the Taiwanese and Europeans.
Jose Parica comments about not having time to practice is wrong. Again you can not use example of some genius to draw a conclusion about what's the best way to go for the biggest chance to succeed.
If 100000 kids tried Efren and Busti ingenious style and only few succeeded, it's not the way to teach a new generation. The fact is the only one who succeeded is Ronnie Alcano.
You lost a lot more time learning on-the-go than having a good training and then going out to gamble. Learning on-the-go also has the risk of having some bad habits technique-wise.
On the other hand, I agree that gambling constantly is one of the best way to sharpen one's nerve. Playing for food is of course one of the biggest motivation, don't miss or you don't eat :wink:.
European also has a very structured training but they lack gambling spirit, they seems to need more time to mature mentally. Most Europeans reach their peak quite late.
Taiwanese had a structured training for kids AND they gamble on regular basis like the Filipinos, maybe not all days and nights but results proved that's a success formula.
Americans gamble but they only gamble when a good game shows up. I agree to the fact that most guys spend the whole day in a pool hall but they are sitting and talking more than playing.
I can't speak to all Asians but my wife is Filipina, grew up in Tondo. Go to google maps , type tondo in the search box and use the pegman feature to drop yourself onto a street in Tondo. You see poverty everywhere and people busting their butts every day just to survive. No food stamps, no Obamaphone, no section 8 housing, no disability check and good jobs are hard to find. You work today so you have food to eat.
The pool players aren't just playing APA beer league pool. They are serious. They spend long hours at a pool table honing their skills. Efren is one of the nicest people you will meet but make no mistake - if you match up with Efren he wants to beat your ass. Take a close look at his eyes when he is down on a shot. Hand a guy like that a pool cue and he becomes an MMA fighter.
The pool players aren't just playing APA beer league pool. They are serious. They spend long hours at a pool table honing their skills. Efren is one of the nicest people you will meet but make no mistake - if you match up with Efren he wants to beat your ass. Take a close look at his eyes when he is down on a shot. Hand a guy like that a pool cue and he becomes an MMA fighter.
What does SVB do after and between matches?
For how long?
How often?
What does Dennis Orcollo do after and between matches?
For how long?
How often?
What do most Americans do?
This is simple.....not brain surgery.
For how long?
How often?
What does Dennis Orcollo do after and between matches?
For how long?
How often?
What do most Americans do?
This is simple.....not brain surgery.
I always loved watching the Filipino players when I got into pool. Efren and a young Bustamante were electric to watch. Big, swooping strokes. Juicing the ball all over the table - it made the game look a lot more fun. But watching the rise of the Chinese and Taiwanese players this past decade and a half, has been eye opening. If you want to talk playing style, Filipino is feel, and artistry. The Chinese/Taiwanese/Japanese model is pure mathematical precision. Only as much english as needed to change the angle of the shot. Lots of multiple rail shots with no running english - always coming into the angle of the shot. My favourite player, from the first time I saw him play, was Yang Ching Shun. He was burying Orcollo for big money in both of their primes. I'm not sure if he's playing again, but he, in my opinion, had the potential to dominate the game. If you've never seen him play, check him out on Youtube. Strickland even said, after being beat by him in a match, "he is the best player I've ever seen play the game". Pretty high praise.
The 2002 WC semifinal between Francisco Bustamante and Ching-Shun Yang is, IMO, one of the greatest matches of all times.
Succinct. But more precisely, it's not just how, but when...as in when they get started. The best players of anything...not just cue sports but anything, music as another example...no matter where you reside...the best of the best almost always got started very young and have simply invested more time. There is always a huge difference between someone that started at or near adulthood vs. the person that's been playing since they were old enough to walk or hold something in their hands.
There's no secret to this. You get people started as young as possible, at anything, and you not only develop a large and deep pool of skill, but a large and deep pool of customers for the future also.
90% of Americans play their first competitive pool match when they are 21 years old or older. Bar League.
Until that changes....nothing changes.
Until that changes....nothing changes.
Exact-a-mundo!
i agree. best of the best.
It's funny how playing conditions determine players' styles .
When Efren came over here, he had the long roller-coaster stroke.
But, after so many years of playing on fast cloth tables, he actually has lost that roller coaster stroke . Busta still has it .
I think the Taiwanese play in much better conditions in Taiwan. Mostly AC'd room and worsted cloth . So, their stroke looks more compact and their game more subtle. Kinda the same for Euro players.