Is this a foul?

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fast&loose designs

Chris Santana
Silver Member
I was playing a friend of mine last night in a weekly 9 ball tournament. He is up 3-2 in a race to 4. After missing the 9 ball, I left him in this position. He attempted to cut the 9 ball to upper left hand pocket using extreme right hand English, as demonstrated by the red dotted line. However, since the shot requires such an extreme amount of spin, he miscued, and the cue ball followed the white dotted line.

This particular miscue was very extreme, and you could hear his shaft make contact with the cue ball after the miscue, since the sound was prolonged. Playing for many years, one can tell the difference between a minor miscue and an extreme one. Not all are the same.

After the miscue, the cue ball traveled along the white dotted line, made contact with the 9 by chance, and both balls struck the rail, leaving both balls in the position shown.

As soon as this happened, I asked "Is that a foul? Your miscue was bad and the cue ball hit the shaft after you shot it." He said it wasn't a foul, but conceded the game anyways, not wanting to discuss the shot, and I tied the match 3-3. After he broke, I ran out, and he became upset.

I informed him that there is a high-speed video of these types of miscues online, and that I would prove that it's a foul. So today I went online, found the video by Dr. Dave, and sent it to him. Sure enough, most of those miscues lead to double-hits, on the ferrule or on the shaft. However, in this video, Dr. Dave states that although it's technically a foul, it is allowed, since detecting such fouls is extremely difficult. I looked up that rule in the BCA rulebook, but I found nothing regarding miscues.

Can anyone shed some light on this, or have any opinions? Thanks. And let's not shoot each other in here over it.

Here's the HSV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lx30_3OxOw
 

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He conceded the game on a shot you were going to make anyways. Then, he broke and YOU ran out and he got upset. At what? You won fair and square.

Maniac
 
chevybob20 said:
No. A miscue is not a foul. I wish it was but there would be too many arguements.
Click to expand...

It's not just the miscue that is a foul, but a miscue in the case that the ferule or shaft hit the cue ball is technically a foul. If someone just hits the ball and the tip slides off the ball, no foul. But try to explain that to the gorilla holding the 64 oz beer in the "I LOVE THE NRA" t-shirt.

I had someone actually use a tipless stick as a jump stick (as in he jumped by hitting the ball with the ferrule), talk about an interesting foul. I did not call it because A. he was 17 or 18 B. it was pretty damn creative (although illegal) C. he made the ball, gotta give him credit.
 
Here's what the WPA world-standardized rules say about it:
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
​

So, as chevybob20 said, miscues per se generally are not treated as fouls (if the shot, ignoring the miscue, is not a foul).

Standard caveat: not all events are played under WPA rules.
 
Not a foul in my book, exactly what you said in the last 2 lines, its difficult to determine this, and to be frank, I think if a guy hits the cueball that hard and miscue, its really hard to hit the cueball twice due the speed of the cueball, your hand and cue/tip cannot be faster than the reaction of the cueball ergo I think (my own opinion) that you cannot hit the cueball twice a.k.a double-hit, on a miscue. ---UNLESS--- the object ball is frozen or too close to the cueball, then you may of make double-hit, other than that I think its impossible physically.

But then again, forget whatever I said, don't judge it by the sound of it, if its extreme or not, its just not a foul.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
I was playing a friend of mine last night in a weekly 9 ball tournament. He is up 3-2 in a race to 4. After missing the 9 ball, I left him in this position. He attempted to cut the 9 ball to upper left hand pocket using extreme right hand English, as demonstrated by the red dotted line. However, since the shot requires such an extreme amount of spin, he miscued, and the cue ball followed the white dotted line.

This particular miscue was very extreme, and you could hear his shaft make contact with the cue ball after the miscue, since the sound was prolonged. Playing for many years, one can tell the difference between a minor miscue and an extreme one. Not all are the same.

After the miscue, the cue ball traveled along the white dotted line, made contact with the 9 by chance, and both balls struck the rail, leaving both balls in the position shown.

As soon as this happened, I asked "Is that a foul? Your miscue was bad and the cue ball hit the shaft after you shot it." He said it wasn't a foul, but conceded the game anyways, not wanting to discuss the shot, and I tied the match 3-3. After he broke, I ran out, and he became upset.

I informed him that there is a high-speed video of these types of miscues online, and that I would prove that it's a foul. So today I went online, found the video by Dr. Dave, and sent it to him. Sure enough, most of those miscues lead to double-hits, on the ferrule or on the shaft. However, in this video, Dr. Dave states that although it's technically a foul, it is allowed, since detecting such fouls is extremely difficult. I looked up that rule in the BCA rulebook, but I found nothing regarding miscues.

Can anyone shed some light on this, or have any opinions? Thanks. And let's not shoot each other in here over it.

Here's the HSV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lx30_3OxOw
Click to expand...

The only "foul" or bad sportsmanship is him getting mad when you ran out! He should have reached out his hand and congratulated you instead. :thumbup:
 
Miscue a foul?

I think the real question depends on whether the miscue actually constituted a double hit. If the strike was terribly thin and the cue tip actually slid off the edge of the cue ball along the ferrel but remained in contact through the miscue and didn't actually generate multiple hits then it is possible that it was no different than shooting a masse' shot but on a horizontal perspective.

Do the rules address the ferrel contacting the cue ball in conjunction with the tip?

While it is probable that a double hit occurs 95% of the time in this situation, it is possible that the movement might be uninterupted on extremely thin hits.

Sine the stroke occurs faster than the eye can capture the event, how can we be sure if it fell into the 95% or qualified as a rare situation.

Perhaps this is why few people try to call this a foul.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
I was playing a friend of mine last night in a weekly 9 ball tournament. He is up 3-2 in a race to 4. After missing the 9 ball, I left him in this position. He attempted to cut the 9 ball to upper left hand pocket using extreme right hand English, as demonstrated by the red dotted line. However, since the shot requires such an extreme amount of spin, he miscued, and the cue ball followed the white dotted line.

This particular miscue was very extreme, and you could hear his shaft make contact with the cue ball after the miscue, since the sound was prolonged. Playing for many years, one can tell the difference between a minor miscue and an extreme one. Not all are the same.

After the miscue, the cue ball traveled along the white dotted line, made contact with the 9 by chance, and both balls struck the rail, leaving both balls in the position shown.

As soon as this happened, I asked "Is that a foul? Your miscue was bad and the cue ball hit the shaft after you shot it." He said it wasn't a foul, but conceded the game anyways, not wanting to discuss the shot, and I tied the match 3-3. After he broke, I ran out, and he became upset.

I informed him that there is a high-speed video of these types of miscues online, and that I would prove that it's a foul. So today I went online, found the video by Dr. Dave, and sent it to him. Sure enough, most of those miscues lead to double-hits, on the ferrule or on the shaft. However, in this video, Dr. Dave states that although it's technically a foul, it is allowed, since detecting such fouls is extremely difficult. I looked up that rule in the BCA rulebook, but I found nothing regarding miscues.

Can anyone shed some light on this, or have any opinions? Thanks. And let's not shoot each other in here over it.

Here's the HSV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lx30_3OxOw
Click to expand...
FYI, there is more context, additional information (including a rules link), and more videos on this topic here:

Check it out,
Dave
 
rrick33 said:
I think the real question depends on whether the miscue actually constituted a double hit. If the strike was terribly thin and the cue tip actually slid off the edge of the cue ball along the ferrel but remained in contact through the miscue and didn't actually generate multiple hits then it is possible that it was no different than shooting a masse' shot but on a horizontal perspective.

Do the rules address the ferrel contacting the cue ball in conjunction with the tip?

While it is probable that a double hit occurs 95% of the time in this situation, it is possible that the movement might be uninterupted on extremely thin hits.

Sine the stroke occurs faster than the eye can capture the event, how can we be sure if it fell into the 95% or qualified as a rare situation.

Perhaps this is why few people try to call this a foul.
Click to expand...

i agree with this,only way its a foul here is if it was a double hit.
 
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