Is this a foul?

Re: cue lift is a foul

Bob Jewett said:
No. I'm sure you know how they play in your local tournaments, but if the OP wants to know what the actual official rules are, he should know that you have it completely wrong.
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Bob,

Could you cite or link to the specific rule that makes this type of shot a foul? I couldn't find it when I did a quick scan of the WPA rules earlier today.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Definition of a legal shot from the WPA-pool.com website under "Definitions used in the rules" http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_def#8.2

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.


Done using a quick scan of the topics


dr_dave said:
Bob,

Could you cite or link to the specific rule that makes this type of shot a foul? I couldn't find it when I did a quick scan of the WPA rules earlier today.

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...
 
Bob Jewett said:
It has been explicitly ruled as a foul. That is not a forward motion of the cue stick (along its axis).

Bob Jewett
Chief Editor, WPA Rules Revision, 2008
Click to expand...

[Hail to the Chief playing in the background...]

Bob, just out of curiosity, what kind of foul is this? It seems to be a violation of 8.2 and therefore not a shot, but what's the foul? Is it more explicitly a foul somewhere else in the rules (or regs)?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick - It's a ....... lack-of-a-foward-stroke-motion-of-the-cue-stick... foul... or more commonly referred to as a LOAFSMOTCS foul.
 
Official BCAPL response

Foul in BCAPL play.

In the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League please see:

  • Definitions and Diagrams - "Legal Stroke" and Diagrams 4 and 5.
  • Rule 1.18
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

Pardon me if this post is a little rough - it's my first time out...

Buddy Eick
BCAPL Referee Training Coordinator
bca_referee@yahoo.com

? The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules and BCAPL Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in this forum.
? The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
? No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically referenced.
? BCAPL Referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators or interpreters. The job of deciding how to interpret or enforce a rule lies properly only with the administrator of a tournament or an organization ? not the referee. Where an interpretation of a rule is necessary and a referee has no definitive written guidance to cite, the matter should be resolved by the administrator. The BCAPL has (fortunately for the BCAPL Referees and membership) taken the step of providing such guidance in a manner never before seen in the billiard industry, and also taken the additional step of making that guidance freely available to BCAPL players as well.
? Not every imaginable issue has been addressed by the BCAPL. Nor will it ever be, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed appropriate, that ruling will then be added to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 :)
 
plshrk22 said:
Alright the Cue Ball is about a milimeter from the object ball, the opponent puts his tip right under the cueball and lifts up to hit it. Apposed to actually stroking he acutally just lifts tip up into cueball. Is this a foul?
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Definately a foul due to the lack of forward motion. I think Byrne showed this in Gamebreakers and said it was good for cheating your little sister at home, but not much more (or something to that effect).
 
Those are BCA League Rules and are not binding on any event other than BCA leauge play.

In addition, it is POSSIBLE...however difficult, to cause SOME forward motion of the cue relative to its longitudinal axis.

For example, if the shooter place the tip JUST BARELY OUTSIDE the perimiter of the CB and then lifted it up AND FORWARD by, say 1/8 inch then there would be "forward motion" in compliance with the BCA and World Standard Rules.

As I and others have commented, such an attempt would be highly likely to result in a foul call under the forward motion rule if the ref is unable to detect the slight forward motion.

Regards,

Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
[Hail to the Chief playing in the background...]

Bob, just out of curiosity, what kind of foul is this? It seems to be a violation of 8.2 and therefore not a shot, but what's the foul? Is it more explicitly a foul somewhere else in the rules (or regs)?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

See Rule 6.16(b) and/or 6.16(c). It violates the fundamental rule of cue sports which is that you may only change the positions of the balls in play by striking the cue ball on a shot. Moving balls by accident is normally only a foul, but moving them intentionally by a technique that is not a shot destroys the game. (Insert favorite Cornbread Red story here.)
 
Bob Jewett said:
See Rule 6.16(b) and/or 6.16(c). It violates the fundamental rule of cue sports which is that you may only change the positions of the balls in play by striking the cue ball on a shot. Moving balls by accident is normally only a foul, but moving them intentionally by a technique that is not a shot destroys the game. (Insert favorite Cornbread Red story here.)
Click to expand...

I'm not defending the "shot" and have posted to that effect but I also suggest that the shot CAN POSSIBLY be made legally if forward motion is applied along with the upward motion....IF the cue is LIFTED and not merely pivoted over a fulcrum bridge...in which case the tip will move backward in relation to the vertical plane at which the tip starts its motion.

That same principal applies to a full masse stroke. If the cue is oriented exactly vertically and is stroked STRAIGHT DOWN, the CB will certainly move but the shot would be illegal by rule, given that there would be no forward movement.

In fact, the cue could be oriented FORWARD of the vertical, in which case the cue would move BACKWARD relative to the departure path of the CB which, obviously would be illegal.

But if the cue is oriented BACKWARD of vertical, then there would be the required forward motion of the cue and such a masse shot would be legal and HAS been legal in the modern history of the game.

The same principal, it seems to me, applies to the shot in question i.e. IF...I repeat IF...SOME visible forward progress of the tip relative to the vertical plane at which the shot is initiated is observed, then the shot would not violate any rule of which I am aware.

Correct?

Regards,
Jim

NOTE: I'm just interested in the fine points of the rules here...and I repeat that the shot would be deemed illegal almost every time due to the difficulty in OBSERVING any forward motion.
 
Efen pulled this shot last year at the DDC. There was no foul called. As long as the cue ball after striking the object ball hits a rail or the object ball hits a rail I see no problem with this shot. It's a great shot in one hole.--Smitty
 
I saw Karen Corr do this shot in a tournament. It is not a foul as long as the tip comes off the ball before the CB hits the OB, and one gets a rail.
 
Well, I had not read Bob Jewett's response when I typed the above statement. I did see Karen do it once, but I have a hard time saying the guy who wrote the rules is wrong!
 
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