Is This Acceptable Condition for a Custom Cue at $195?

[Yeo]

Hi All Az members,

Recently I ordered a full splice custom cue at $195 from Duc (Cuemaster98):
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=60272

He said that the cue was put together by Joel weinstock out in Tulsa, OK and he learned his cuemaking from Kersenbrock and Verl Horn.

Upon receiving the cue, I was very disappointed by the finishing.
I have ordered many cues from taiwan and phillipines, their finishing are much better than this even thought the cues might be lower than $195.

Now my question is: Is my expectation too high for a cue at $195?
Should I change my attitude and mindset so that I would not have high expectation for cue selling at $195?

Az members, please advise me.

Thank You.

The following are the conditions I am disappointed with. Are these conditions very common for a cue and I should not be bother about it?

1) There is a dent near the joint collar of the butt

2) There ferrule is not well polish, it is blur and lots of scatches, and there are some flat surfaces on the ferrule

3) There are glue overflow onto the radial pin, I have already remove part of it, just show you what is remaining

4) End of butt is not well polished, it is very obvious can see the portion that is polished and shinny, and the portion that is with lots of scatches and blur.

5) Butt cap joint is uneven.

6) shaft joint collar is not totally flush, can feel it when running fingers across the joint, can also see the visible thin depression gap at the joint.

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

Sometimes things are too good to be true.

Tony

 

[jdelcue]

I don't care if a pool cue cost $1. Price should not share an inverse relationship with defects! Perhaps the amount of work that goes into the cue overall is less (using fillers for inlays, no inlays at all, CNC points vs. spliced points, etc), or the shaft wood used is lower-grade, or whatever it is that makes a particular cue cost less to make. The way I see it, it is the duty of the cuemaker to make the cue to the best of his ability with whatever resources he has...and if those resources should include $1, then so be it. Make the best cue you can with that buck -- but what you have there is not an acceptable finished product by any standards. If I were a cuemaker, that stick would have been burned. End of story.

I will say that I have never had an issue with Duc Lam or Joel Weinstock, but then again I've never really done business with them, so I reserve my judgement in that regard, and these comments do not concern them at all...

But to answer your question about a cue one receives in that condition...
...in a very general, straight-forward manner:



That's just a bunch of crap.

 

[cuejoey]

i have a $30.00 house cue from Sears that is better than that..

 

[Tommy-D]

> I've never even made a cue at this point,but I'd bet my lungs my first one will be better than that. NONE of those flaws appear to be in the materials either,only a complete lack of pride,skill,and ethical sense allows a cue to go out the door like that. I know it said Joel Weinstock put it together,but who in the hell sanded and sprayed it,or put the ferrule on for that matter? How do you leave glue on the pin? If Joel was trained by Kersenbrock,can he be THAT bad? (word around the campfire is the exact opposite)

The only way a cue should ever look this bad right out of the box is if it was beat the hell up in transit,and even that doesn't explain pathetic attention to detail.

I'm hot about it,and it's not even MY cue,so you can imagine how hot I'm telling you I think YOU should be. If I lived in the same country as whoever let go of this turd,I'd be at his shop as quickly as I could reasonably get there.


By the way,those other 3 cues in your post are exquisite,even the plain one. Viking? Tommy D.

 

[John Barton]

What did you expect?

I voted no because this workmanship is not acceptable at any price.

I have to ask though what did you reasonably expect for $195. It shouldn't be a surprise that you received a cue in this condition when you were paying far less than the market price for a new "custom" cue.

I have known a few cuemakers throughout the years who pump out some low priced models, mostly plain janes or sneaky petes. While the work was not as blatantly bad as this one there have definitely been more than few that they wished in later years that they hadn't made.

Somewhere along the line the customer needs to understand that there are no magic tricks to making cues. Good quality takes time. Even in mass production it takes a certain amount of time that no machines can help with to produce good quality cues.

The only reason it's possible to get a good cue under $200 is because the maker has made their shop so efficient that they can turn some profit on their work at that price. Otherwise you are far more likely to end up with something along the lines of what you see here. It's against the nature of people to work for free and when they see that they are going to go over that spot where they aren't going to make money on something they have a tendency to shut down inside.

I think it's time to revise your expectations and bring them in line with what is really probable. You shouldn't accept this cue for any price but you shouldn't expect a jam up custom cue from a small US maker for $200 either unless you already know their work and know they can do it.

 

[Scott Lee]

I may be wrong here, but it seems like the most obvious point has been overlooked. The OP did not order a custom cue to be made (I took this reference from his mention that the cue was not made by the seller). He purchased a USED cue, and was unhappy with the condition it was sold to him in. That has nothing to do with the condition of the cue when it was new. Was the cue sold to the OP in "as new" condition? That is never mentioned. To back up what John said, what do you expect for $195? This looks like a cheaply manufactured cue to begin, and doesn't appear to me to have the same characteristics as a "custom" cue would. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Hal]

I don't think a question such as that should have been made into a public poll. It might cause some bad blood between users.

 

[Purdman]

My .02

You get what you pay for!
Purdman

 

[MrLucky]

This is my impression also!

I may be wrong here, but it seems like the most obvious point has been overlooked. The OP did not order a custom cue to be made (I took this reference from his mention that the cue was not made by the seller). He purchased a USED cue, and was unhappy with the condition it was sold to him in. That has nothing to do with the condition of the cue when it was new. Was the cue sold to the OP in "as new" condition? That is never mentioned. To back up what John said, what do you expect for $195? This looks like a cheaply manufactured cue to begin, and doesn't appear to me to have the same characteristics as a "custom" cue would. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If the Cue is used then these flaws are to be expected ! the clue is the dent ! new cues should never have a dent 1 this comes after someone was careless while using it. JMO

 

[ShootingArts]

not bad for a minimum wage cue

I would think you could get a new cue that looked better in Singapore but at the same time I don't think it looks bad for a minimum wage cue.

There are two possibilities about this cue, we will have to hear which is true from the original poster later.

A. It is a used cue. Most of the problems can be purely due to the age and handling of the cue plus the climate conditions it has been in.

B. It is a new cue being sold by a dealer. Now lets break the price down. The dealer makes usually fifty to one hundred percent profit, meaning the cue left the maker for maybe a hundred or hundred and twenty-five dollars. Materials cost $30+. Time in the cue is likely to be twenty to thirty hours. In the US people flipping hamburgers are higher paid. You don't get a master cuemaker's work paying minimum wage.

Another thing that others need to remember is that these photo's are considerably bigger than life size. What does your cue look like when you take the same type of picture? What did you pay for your cue?

I purchased a $145 cue about a year ago for several reasons. One reason was that I needed a player. The other was I was curious how a cue could be built and marketed for that price. I didn't have the cue long before I had my answers. Corners were cut. The insert came out of the shaft because the hole had been bored so large that the insert could be turned in without threading the shaft and glue was trusted to do the rest. The finish was decent but not top quality. The tip was decent but not an expensive tip. The ferule likewise. The pin wasn't perfectly centered either but it was close. The stick plays fair and in all honesty I got what I paid for. I am currently putting a new pin in the center, putting a new collar on the butt, and making a new shaft for the stick. If I paid for that work or considered my hours, the work would cost more than the stick did. I will also have more cost in the material for the fix than everything in the original stick cost because of the quality of the components I am using. I got what I paid for, and I am paying for getting it now. Sent to another cue maker and adding a quality refinish I would have over $500 in this cheap stick. At the heart, it will still be a cheap stick and I'd be very lucky to get $200 for it.

Hu

 

[Yeo]

By the way,those other 3 cues in your post are exquisite,even the plain one. Viking? Tommy D.

Hi, Thank You.

My jump cue is Linds custom jump from Philippines. But I self-customised it myself to added the groove at the joint and at the back.

My playing cue is also Linds custom playing cue. All white are ivory (including joint collar). All grey are MOP.

The third is my break cue, BSA Break from Taiwan. Yang Ching-Shun was using this model to break sometime ago.

 

[Yeo]

I may be wrong here, but it seems like the most obvious point has been overlooked. The OP did not order a custom cue to be made (I took this reference from his mention that the cue was not made by the seller). He purchased a USED cue, and was unhappy with the condition it was sold to him in. That has nothing to do with the condition of the cue when it was new. Was the cue sold to the OP in "as new" condition? That is never mentioned. To back up what John said, what do you expect for $195? This looks like a cheaply manufactured cue to begin, and doesn't appear to me to have the same characteristics as a "custom" cue would. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Oh, good question. I always have the impression that the cue is new because Cuemaster98 stated that it is "test hit and lightly played", maybe I am wrong.

This is what he mentioned in his post:

"We are clearing out most of our old inventory for new stock this upcoming summer. We are looking forward to introducing our new line of full splice cue and custom shafts after months of experimenting with new innovative tapers, construction technique and different pins.

For sales is player cue that was design with a parabolic taper laminated shaft and a hand selected full splice blanks with the very tight and straight grain maple forearm. The finish on the blank is not the greatest but it clean. The cue has a gold radial pin from atlas and installed in our shop in Canada. The cue is straight and may have a roll that is due to our custom taper shaft. The shaft is actually thicker near the end than the end of the shaft. Please note some of the points are touch up to make sure they are all even..just making look nicer..nothing that you will notice.

The cue weigh in at 14.4oz with the shaft at 4.4oz 13mm with a hard Molavia tip. Well balance and plays great. We also have these some left with the 3/8-11 pin (5 left), 3/8-10 pin (2), 5/16-18 (Nearly finish wo shaft) and 5/16-14 with wrap (2). These all have the parabolic shaft taper that were custom made for us by Joel Weinstock. All of these cue have all been test hit and lightly played (Play Solid..with 100% feedback and feel)

I will let the pics describe the rest of the cue. Any question, email me at dlam0718@gmail.com. "

 

[Yeo]

I voted no because this workmanship is not acceptable at any price.

I have to ask though what did you reasonably expect for $195. It shouldn't be a surprise that you received a cue in this condition when you were paying far less than the market price for a new "custom" cue.

I have known a few cuemakers throughout the years who pump out some low priced models, mostly plain janes or sneaky petes. While the work was not as blatantly bad as this one there have definitely been more than few that they wished in later years that they hadn't made.

Somewhere along the line the customer needs to understand that there are no magic tricks to making cues. Good quality takes time. Even in mass production it takes a certain amount of time that no machines can help with to produce good quality cues.

The only reason it's possible to get a good cue under $200 is because the maker has made their shop so efficient that they can turn some profit on their work at that price. Otherwise you are far more likely to end up with something along the lines of what you see here. It's against the nature of people to work for free and when they see that they are going to go over that spot where they aren't going to make money on something they have a tendency to shut down inside.

I think it's time to revise your expectations and bring them in line with what is really probable. You shouldn't accept this cue for any price but you shouldn't expect a jam up custom cue from a small US maker for $200 either unless you already know their work and know they can do it.

I don't think a question such as that should have been made into a public poll. It might cause some bad blood between users.

You get what you pay for!
Purdman

Hi All, Thank You for you replies.

Sorry, at first I didnt want to post this poll. But I was in such a dilemma that I couldnt decide whether to change my mindset or not.

At first I am also thinking I pay for what I get. I should not expect too much for a $195 cue.

But after a while I feel that even a less than $50 house cue has better finish than this.

This has been bothering me. Therefore I decided to post this poll at Azbilliards and seek for opinions. I know that Az members are much more well experienced than me.

Thank You so much for all those who have polled and replied.

Yeo

 

[MrLucky]

Lightly Played......

Oh, good question. I always have the impression that the cue is new because Cuemaster98 stated that it is "test hit and lightly played", maybe I am wrong.

This is what he mentioned in his post:

"We are clearing out most of our old inventory for new stock this upcoming summer. We are looking forward to introducing our new line of full splice cue and custom shafts after months of experimenting with new innovative tapers, construction technique and different pins.

For sales is player cue that was design with a parabolic taper laminated shaft and a hand selected full splice blanks with the very tight and straight grain maple forearm. The finish on the blank is not the greatest but it clean. The cue has a gold radial pin from atlas and installed in our shop in Canada. The cue is straight and may have a roll that is due to our custom taper shaft. The shaft is actually thicker near the end than the end of the shaft. Please note some of the points are touch up to make sure they are all even..just making look nicer..nothing that you will notice.

The cue weigh in at 14.4oz with the shaft at 4.4oz 13mm with a hard Molavia tip. Well balance and plays great. We also have these some left with the 3/8-11 pin (5 left), 3/8-10 pin (2), 5/16-18 (Nearly finish wo shaft) and 5/16-14 with wrap (2). These all have the parabolic shaft taper that were custom made for us by Joel Weinstock. All of these cue have all been test hit and lightly played (Play Solid..with 100% feedback and feel)

I will let the pics describe the rest of the cue. Any question, email me at dlam0718@gmail.com. "

in my opinion is the clue to USED CUE! similar to the old car salesmans pitch of ..."a little old lady who rarely drove owned this beauty and you can have it at the steal price of ...."

 

[Black-Balled]

Not the first thime Duc's items have been discussed. Sorry you missed the earlier threads, you might've saved $200.

That said, there aren't too many cues out there that aren't production for that price...now get Linds to fix it up!

 

[Yeo]

Not the first thime Duc's items have been discussed. Sorry you missed the earlier threads, you might've saved $200.

That said, there aren't too many cues out there that aren't production for that price...now get Linds to fix it up!

Oh, I missed the earlier threads.
I try searching but cannot find it.
Do you still remember which thread is it?

Thank You so much!!

Anyway, I am not spending anymore money on this cue. The purpose for me buying is just to try out how a $195 full splice cue feel like. But personally, I am not very amazed by its feel.

 

[Pinocchio]

Yeo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeo to me anytime a cue is misrepresented an does not live up to sellers discription thats not a good thing. Bringing to the attention of the general forum these circumstances is doing everyone a favor. I tend to agree with you $195.oo is to much for the cue had I seen the cue in person I probably would not have been a buyer at 1/2 thar price. Integrity among sells as well as buyers is a key ingredient for satisfied buyers an sellers. I think you for you post an pass along good rep to you for doing so. I think you paid a fair price for what was advertised an did not get you moneys worth an hope there is some recourse for you. I am also dissatisfied just as you are with this transaction. I have bought several cues off the forum an can say that in evey case each one that was recieved was better than described except for one. In that case the member was banned before I recieve my cue an felt I had little or no recourse. I hope this transaction does not limit your particiapation in buying or selling in this forum. My advice would be to buy from proven sellers an we all know who they are.
Have a good day an don't let one deal discouraged you from participating in the buyer seller forum.
Pinocchio

 

[Stan9]

But did you ask the seller on the wear and tear and whether it has any dins/dents/defects on that cue which was advertised as used? If you did and got misleading info, then it is clearly unacceptable. It's definitely not too much to expect more for a $195 cue though.

For what it's worth, you could run a check on the terms full spliced blanks under the seller's ID cuemaster98.

 

[Yeo]

Yeo to me anytime a cue is misrepresented an does not live up to sellers discription thats not a good thing. Bringing to the attention of the general forum these circumstances is doing everyone a favor. I tend to agree with you $195.oo is to much for the cue had I seen the cue in person I probably would not have been a buyer at 1/2 thar price. Integrity among sells as well as buyers is a key ingredient for satisfied buyers an sellers. I think you for you post an pass along good rep to you for doing so. I think you paid a fair price for what was advertised an did not get you moneys worth an hope there is some recourse for you. I am also dissatisfied just as you are with this transaction. I have bought several cues off the forum an can say that in evey case each one that was recieved was better than described except for one. In that case the member was banned before I recieve my cue an felt I had little or no recourse. I hope this transaction does not limit your particiapation in buying or selling in this forum. My advice would be to buy from proven sellers an we all know who they are.
Have a good day an don't let one deal discouraged you from participating in the buyer seller forum.
Pinocchio

Hi Pinocchio, Thank You.

The purpose for me posting is to learn from you all, so that in future, I will know what to look out for when participating in the buyer seller forum.

Thanz.

Yeo