Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open

justaplayer said:
Wanna bet? In-fact without TV the entire sport would be broke and if football players didn't have agents and lawyers they'd be broke, with or without TV.

A monetized video brings in revenue for whoever uploaded it. It's nickles and dimes compared to the revenue YouTube makes but, when you have thousands of videos you have serious money continually coming in.
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Maybe you should become a streamer then. These guys do it fir tge love of the game. They aren't getting rich. Pool is a fringe sport.

Somebody gets a casino to post 100k if they get a good turnout. The players didn't come. ...neither did spectators. So how is that the promoters fault?[/QUOTE]

It's a trend for promoters and or Tour operators to over promise and under deliver

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BeiberLvr said:
That's what I meant not directly. Same thing with NFL. Networks pay money for a contract to have the rights to broadcast games. That money gets split across all teams. The players might get a small piece which is probably included in their salaries.
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Small piece .? the players get half of the owners share which was about a 112 million per team for the players which is about 90 pct of the salery cap ,

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justaplayer said:
Mike Zuglan fills 128 player fields at Turning Stone months in advance. I'm sure he could do it monthly just from players in the northeast. Every event has a waiting list, the hotel sells lots of nights and the casino gets lots of action. Many spectators as well.

Maybe they should just put Zuglan in charge of the big national pro pool tournaments ....the man knows what he's doing.
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Can't believe I forgot about my good buddy Oscar and his bride to be Desiree --- holding 100+ player events and doing 18 of them a year on big tables.

Then of course there is the Swanney each year that Mark G actually has his hands in. Limited added money and they still turn people away - on the big tables.
 
Same thing happened last year .. I was there. . She talked down to players .. lots,of favortism. Same ppl on stream... took her two hours to payout.. cz,she wasn't even in the building .. changed the rules during the scotch doubles cz she could break cz she broke her arm
. And the list goes on
 
native events

why nothing posted about the native events? who won? whats was the added and payouts? seen pictures of Vivian with all the other pro and amateur winners???? with out that tribe no tourney......... maybe I missed it posted some where.
 
The prize payout structure for some tournaments are not stated clearly or not stated at all on some promoter websites, including AZ. Post to correct me, I am interested in pay out structure for an event.

It is worth noting that providing a summary score for tournament payout would make it easier for players to decide which to attend.

Here is a basic example to see if it helps.

FEC score, field to entry coefficient example:
10 people fill a field with $100 entry. Total Prize payout is $1000.
FEC score is 10, its a recreational event.

FEC is total prize payout divided by field size

Any FEC score less than field size is recreational or for amateurs to test the water.

http://www.usopen9ballchampionships.com/

Above operator states 160 players, $200,000 total payout with $1000 entry.
FEC score 200.

An event where the promoter does more than just collect entry means the FEC score should be more than field size.

An event where the FEC score is more than the field size means, they add value to the tournament. The promoter value, like 160 players divided into a FEC score 200 is about a 1.25. Promoter adds 25 cents to each dollar of entry fee when paying prizes.

Promoter value is FEC score divided by field size. Promoter value has potential for distinguishing different levels of promoter value. Promoters throw large numbers that seem attractive and appealing but in a ratio comparison you can identify who adds more money in the prize pot per dollar.

The promoter value accounts of field size, entry fee and total payout. Good scores should be over 1.00. Less than 1.00 means the promoter is more interested in making money from prize entries then through ticket sales

Need more data for a top heavy, bottom heavy rating.

Quality of field, should be easy to gauge based on PEC or FEC. Best events draw the best players. If you just want to bang around and go through a tournament experience, playing a local league event might be financially sensible as opposed to staking travel expenses.


dardusm said:
I like your entry coefficient PEC. The 10,000 first place with a 500 entry would be a PEC of 20 in your example. I think depending on the player there might be other factors involved with playing in the event. Myself, winning the event would be difficult if not impossible. I try to look at the overall event and the value to me, OEVM coefficient :)

I probably don't have a chance to win but I might cash. Questions that I like an answer is how far down does the tournament pay? Is it paid top heavy or more evenly spread out? What is the quality of the field? (I enjoy watching good play almost as much as playing) Equipment? Expenses?

If promoters can answer these questions then the tournament might bring out more amateur players or "fillers" or "deadmoney" to play in the events that help support the pro players. I'll try to play in a couple a year that I'm in reality donating but if everything aligns I might sneak into the money.
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lfigueroa said:
Running a big event, whether a pool tournament or something else, is no joke. It takes forethought, planning, education, experience, good judgement, manpower, money, and attention to detail.

You tell me how common those are in one package in the world of pool.

Lou Figueroa
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You got this one right Lou. I knew a promoter once who worked very hard to make his events successful, going so far as to put posters up on telephone poles and in the windows of every poolroom within a fifty mile range, spend almost $25,000 on advertising and publicity, plus booked a huge and expensive venue. Added money in these events was ALWAYS guaranteed and paid in full, with as much as 50K added over twenty years ago. What was his reward for his efforts - the players boycotted his next event! :o
 
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jay helfert said:
You got this one right Lou. I knew a promoter once who worked very hard to make his events successful, going so far as to put posters up on telephone poles and in the windows of every poolroom within a fifty mile range, spend almost $25,000 on advertising and publicity, plus booked a huge (expensive) venue. Added money in these events was ALWAYS guaranteed and paid in full, with as much as 50K added over twenty years ago. What was his reward for his efforts - the players boycotted his next event! :o
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Remembering prior threads, I think you are talking about your own L.A. Opens in 1992 and 1993. Darn shame about the boycott.
 
vivpay.jpg

If this is data for the Tornado Open

Total for Womens: 55400

FEC score: 55400 divided by 500 entry equals 110, 64 players

Promoter value FEC score divided by players is 1.7, Viv added 70 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

Total for Mens: 52900

FEC score: 52900 divided by 500 entry equals 105, 80 players

Promoter value is FEC score divided by players is 1.3, Viv added 30 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

Compared to event http://www.usopen9ballchampionships.com/

The USOpen had FEC multiplier of 1.25,, Promoter added 25 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

The promoter value is how much money is added to each entry fee dollar for prize payouts.
Instead of a bunch of friends just sharing prize money, promoters throws some in. promoter value shows how much they throw in.

If you put in a dollar out comes 1.25 in prize payouts. Meaning the promoter added 0.25 cents to the dollar of value to your prize fee.

The Tornado has a higher score than the US Open 9 ball. For women is a lot higher, for mens its slightly higher.

Considerations not shown through data are affordability of event location, length of tournament, quality of scheduling event matches, accessibility of event, prize payouts are actually paid and playing conditions of tournament.
 
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AtLarge said:
Remembering prior threads, I think you are talking about your own L.A. Opens in 1992 and 1993. Darn shame about the boycott.
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Then there was the promoter who put Pool on ESPN for the first time. got Caesars Palace and Budweiser to add substantial money and paid out over 100K per event over thirty years ago. That is, until the players refused to sign the standard television releases and the final tournament was never shown on ESPN. That ended his career as a pool promoter. :o
 
jay helfert said:
Then there was the promoter who put Pool on ESPN for the first time. got Caesars Palace and Budweiser to add substantial money and paid out over 100K per event over thirty years ago. That is, until the players refused to sign the standard television releases and the final tournament was never shown on ESPN. That ended his career as a pool promoter. :o
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Richie Florence?
 
jay helfert said:
You got this one right Lou. I knew a promoter once who worked very hard to make his events successful, going so far as to put posters up on telephone poles and in the windows of every poolroom within a fifty mile range, spend almost $25,000 on advertising and publicity, plus booked a huge and expensive venue. Added money in these events was ALWAYS guaranteed and paid in full, with as much as 50K added over twenty years ago. What was his reward for his efforts - the players boycotted his next event! :o
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Jay, you make it sound like my getting it right is an exception, lol.

Certainly your point about promoting an event properly cannot be taken too lightly -- it's crucial to the success of an event. Come to think of it, it's odd that some "promoters" forget the "promoting" part.

Lou Figueroa
 
justnum said:
View attachment 436255

If this is data for the Tornado Open

Total for Womens: 55400

FEC score: 55400 divided by 500 entry equals 110, 64 players

Promoter value FEC score divided by players is 1.7, Viv added 70 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

Total for Mens: 52900

FEC score: 52900 divided by 500 entry equals 105, 80 players

Promoter value is FEC score divided by players is 1.3, Viv added 30 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

Compared to event http://www.usopen9ballchampionships.com/

The USOpen had FEC multiplier of 1.25,, Promoter added 25 cents to each dollar paid in entry fees to prize payouts

The promoter value is how much money is added to each entry fee dollar for prize payouts.
Instead of a bunch of friends just sharing prize money, promoters throws some in. promoter value shows how much they throw in.

If you put in a dollar out comes 1.25 in prize payouts. Meaning the promoter added 0.25 cents to the dollar of value to your prize fee.

The Tornado has a higher score than the US Open 9 ball. For women is a lot higher, for mens its slightly higher.

Considerations not shown through data are affordability of event location, length of tournament, quality of scheduling event matches, accessibility of event, prize payouts are actually paid and playing conditions of tournament.
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So the women's event had more added money in it than the men's event?
Remind me, which event did Vivian play in?
 
Here is one other thing that I believe is important: put your event on the calendar far enough in advance so players and spectators can plan on it.

I know that in some cases there are a lot of reasons things get announced on short noticed, or even moved, but the bottomline is that if you know there is an event you want to participate in, it helps to have notice. You can properly schedule other things in your life and plane tickets are cheaper in advance.

Everyone knows a year out when the next DCC is going to be. It was the same for the US One Pocket Open when it was held up in Kalamazoo -- before players left one year they knew the dates for the next and could plan on it.

It also helps not to schedule a big event too close to another. And along those lines, I also feel scheduling multiple events back-to-back is counter-productive. Very few, other than the hardcore -- have the time, money, and inclination to spend days and days at multiple pool events. It is too much time away from real life and it's expensive.

Years ago, if I wanted to go to Vegas or just about anywhere else for that matter, for a tournament on short notice, I could book a round trip SWA ticket for less than $200. I also could usually find a decent hotel for less than $100. Now the SWA ticket is double or triple that, same for the hotel. Then there's a rental car, food, t-shirt money, and whatnot. My point being that for many who want to participate and support pool tournaments it has gotten too expensive to just blow a lot of money for our hobby.

Lou Figueroa
 
Tournaments are bound to overlap. If all promoters worried about other promoters then we'd have 3 tournaments a year.
 
lfigueroa said:
Here is one other thing that I believe is important: put your event on the calendar far enough in advance so players and spectators can plan on it.



I know that in some cases there are a lot of reasons things get announced on short noticed, or even moved, but the bottomline is that if you know there is an event you want to participate in, it helps to have notice. You can properly schedule other things in your life and plane tickets are cheaper in advance.



Everyone knows a year out when the next DCC is going to be. It was the same for the US One Pocket Open when it was held up in Kalamazoo -- before players left one year they knew the dates for the next and could plan on it.



It also helps not to schedule a big event too close to another. And along those lines, I also feel scheduling multiple events back-to-back is counter-productive. Very few, other than the hardcore -- have the time, money, and inclination to spend days and days at multiple pool events. It is too much time away from real life and it's expensive.



Years ago, if I wanted to go to Vegas or just about anywhere else for that matter, for a tournament on short notice, I could book a round trip SWA ticket for less than $200. I also could usually find a decent hotel for less than $100. Now the SWA ticket is double or triple that, same for the hotel. Then there's a rental car, food, t-shirt money, and whatnot. My point being that for many who want to participate and support pool tournaments it has gotten too expensive to just blow a lot of money for our hobby.



Lou Figueroa
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Tho it's not always the option bidding on flights and rooms on Priceline for many years has saved me a ton. Tickets are usually at least half price of list, rental cars cheap and rooms in hotels that are upwards of a hundred a night for 40-75$.......

Which is another reason I've always put up out of town players that I know when possible. I know how tough that road is and she's one expensive mamma jamma these days no matter how you slice it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
John Disque said:
supergreenman said:
My point was - all you people I never heard of hang around the net like little vultures just dying to attack someone who has the guts to stand up for the sport and the players who are getting shit-on everywhere they turn.

If you gave a damn about this sport you would give a damn about what the pros are saying and THEIR ideas on getting more money in the sport. In-other words - it's not about you getting to watch them for free on Youtube and you might want to lay off that keyboard for a minute and learn something, and it's not about some talentless shoulder-hopping dweeb with a camera making money off their talent while giving the ones with the talent NOTHING.

Pool is the only sport on Earth you could get away with this crap!
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I can see your firmly entrenched in your erroneous opinion so I have no reply to your splenetic ranting.
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