Issues with Jim Lee, Part 2.

[crawfish]

Some of you guys are just no fun any more. Here I am with all kinds of health problems, and come on here to read, harrass, and enjoy. Can't we just all get along?

Question for you.... Tim Scruggs have these problems? Pete Ohman? Searing? Anybody getting the drift? Professionalism and customer service, baby!

 

[poolplayer2093]

Some of you guys are just no fun any more. Here I am with all kinds of health problems, and come on here to read, harrass, and enjoy. Can't we just all get along?

Question for you.... Tim Scruggs have these problems? Pete Ohman? Searing? Anybody getting the drift? Professionalism and customer service, baby!

for sure! hay man when you comig out to cali? what kind of health problems you having?

 

[crawfish]

for sure! hay man when you comig out to cali? what kind of health problems you having?

Just opened a carpet store and hired a second salesperson. Bleeding ulcer along with a terrible reflux, an unexplained growth in the lining of my stomach. What else? Oh yes, asthma has increased with the reflux and retention of water. So.... Cali will have to wait. Thanks for asking. I just hope to wake up every morning. We all should be thankful.

 

[gwjackal]

Merlin -- good talking to you. Like I told you over the phone I respect you for actually calling me! I still have my side and you and jim have yours but we both know where we are coming from now between us. Good luck and I hope things turn out better for you next time around, and remember like I said if you need anything call me...

Greg

 

[poolplayer2093]

Just opened a carpet store and hired a second salesperson. Bleeding ulcer along with a terrible reflux, an unexplained growth in the lining of my stomach. What else? Oh yes, asthma has increased with the reflux and retention of water. So.... Cali will have to wait. Thanks for asking. I just hope to wake up every morning. We all should be thankful.

man that's rough. hope it gets better! stay away from the spicy food!

 

[Danktrees]

You say "it takes seconds to take a picture and a minute to post it, there's no labor in that." Describe the project you are working on now and the state of progress and I'll request a few pictures. Then tell me how long it really took to provide the pictures, from the time you stopped what else you were doing on the job site until you got back to work. Since it only takes a minute or two no labor involved go ahead and do this ten times during a day, starting and stopping normal activities with at least thirty minutes between each picture and then tell me how much real time you lost taking pictures and sending them to me. What else did you get accomplished that day? Different story when we are talking about your time isn't it?

I have ran a few largish projects myself, some multi-million dollar projects.The companies I worked for had both cost plus and hard money projects. I almost always handled hard money projects because I delivered them ahead of schedule and under the cost estimates. I didn't do that by talking on the phone or taking pictures when there was work to be done.

Hu

i would like to address this part of your post as this topic seems to have been discussed extensively.

i for one do not believe that a simple request for pictures should go unfulfilled, especially in a situation like this. in my own personal dealings with jim he treated me well and provided pictures without me asking so im not here to bash him or anything. however, for those that say that pics should not be sent because it takes time, thats ludicrous.

taking your post for example, u state that stopping 10 times a day to take and send pictures to customers is tedious and time consuming. i agree, it's also annoying and most importantly, a stupid thing to do. whoever goes and takes pictures on a schedule like that is dumb and that is a not a solution to anything. so really, this example doesnt prove ur point since no one in their right mind would operate like that. im thinking u just used an extreme example like that just to support ur point but i dont see how anyone would consider that to be an effective system. rather, cuemakers should set aside time on a biweekly or monthly basis where they spend an hour or two to take pictures of cues in progress and send pics to their customers. keep in mind that u wouldnt even need to take pics of every cue. if u took a pic of a cue for someone a month ago, it's unlikely that u'll need to take another one next month. so lets consider that the cuemaker has 40 cues going in various stages which i think is a fair amount considering many cuemakers produce less than that per year. with 40 cues going, u would take 10 pics of the ones closest to completion in the first month and send it to their owners. next month u take pics of the next 10 closest cues to completion and so on. so basically u would only need to take 10-30 pics (1-3 pics per cue) a month and send them to their owners. i honestly do not see that taking more than 30-45 minutes. but this keeps ur customers in the loop. they are less likely to call and bug u if they know u r actually doing stuff to the cue rather than just sitting there hoping u r working on their cue. for those that argue taking this time to take pics results in less time spent in the shop, consider that the 30-45 minutes of phototaking and emailing will probably result in less calls and long discussions regarding updates etc. which ends up saving u a lot more time. if a customer sees that work is progressing they will leave u alone (not all, but most will), if he or she has to call u to get reassurance that u're working on their cue then they will do that continually. since they cant see the cue, they call frequently to make sure that u r still working on their cue and that u havent forgotten about them. it sounds stupid but many cuemakers have experienced this. so taking 30-45 minutes out of each month to take a few pics seems more than reasonable.

furthermore, taking a picture here and there to assure the customer that the cue is being made is part of the process so time should be devoted to it. just like the customer has a responsibility to put a deposit on the cue in order to ensure material and labour costs, a cuemaker has a responsibility to send a picture once in a while to assure the customer that his or her money is actually being used towards the materials and that the part of the deposit devoted to partial labour costs are actually producing a semi-completed cue. the customer is responsible for paying the remaining balance for the delivery of the completed cue and the cuemaker is then responsible for delivering the cue.

also, when u go to the for sale section, whenever someone tries to sell a cue without pics he gets bashed to pieces and everyone agrees with it. it's basically the same thing here, except u're buying the cue directly from the cuemaker.

 

[poolplayer2093]

I don't take snapshots. If I take pictures I set up lighting and arrange what I want to shoot. Then I capture images in RAW using a DSLR. Next I process them in Photoshop CS adjusting a dozen things and cropping/sizing appropriately. Then I e-mail them. If I don't have time to take and process sharp clean photographs that illustrate what I want to illustrate properly I don't have time to take pictures.

If I have somebody's cash and they don't trust me to be using it appropriately it is time to send their cash back, I'm not taking pictures to reassure them and they aren't getting anything I make from me. I have learned that customers that are headaches are long term headaches, much smarter to get rid of them. They will find something to knock, real or imaginary. I have dealt with the public most of the time since 1968. You learn it is more beneficial to not do business with some people after that long.

Hu

We're not talking about you. if someone throws down some cash and asks for a picture at one point during the building process it shouldn't be a big deal. nobody's saying the guy demanded high grade pro photographer pics just a few snap shots so the guy can get an idea of what's going on.

just because the guy asked for a few pictures doesn't mean he's going to nitpick everything. i've asked for pictures from different cue makers that were building me a cue and they provided 'em without a hitch.

 

[ShootingArts]

this was a reply to Mike when he said it was nothing

I tried three times and didn't make it through your big block of text you didn't break down into paragraphs. However if you kept up with the thread you would realize that I was replying to what I quoted of Mike's post. He, you, most everybody realizes that taking photographs is a bit more time consuming than first claimed.

Talking on the phone, taking pictures, handling shop visits, none of these things are too time consuming when talking about one customer. However when you start talking about a dozen or two customers then unless you handle it in an orderly manner production comes to a halt while you accommodate the customers who want updates. Aside from anything else, it wrecks the flow of concentration while trying to do quality work. Try running a few racks while answering questions on the phone, talking to the folks passing by visiting and taking a few pictures of something behind the bar and sending to somebody.

I had a little three or four man shop. I also had customers that wanted status reports on their "babies". There was many a day that I personally didn't do anything towards getting work out until after I closed the gate and quit answering the phone after close of business.

Hu

i would like to address this part of your post as this topic seems to have been discussed extensively.

i for one do not believe that a simple request for pictures should go unfulfilled, especially in a situation like this. in my own personal dealings with jim he treated me well and provided pictures without me asking so im not here to bash him or anything. however, for those that say that pics should not be sent because it takes time, thats ludicrous.

taking your post for example, u state that stopping 10 times a day to take and send pictures to customers is tedious and time consuming. i agree, it's also annoying and most importantly, a stupid thing to do. whoever goes and takes pictures on a schedule like that is dumb and that is a not a solution to anything. so really, this example doesnt prove ur point since no one in their right mind would operate like that. im thinking u just used an extreme example like that just to support ur point but i dont see how anyone would consider that to be an effective system. rather, cuemakers should set aside time on a biweekly or monthly basis where they spend an hour or two to take pictures of cues in progress and send pics to their customers. keep in mind that u wouldnt even need to take pics of every cue. if u took a pic of a cue for someone a month ago, it's unlikely that u'll need to take another one next month. so lets consider that the cuemaker has 40 cues going in various stages which i think is a fair amount considering many cuemakers produce less than that per year. with 40 cues going, u would take 10 pics of the ones closest to completion in the first month and send it to their owners. next month u take pics of the next 10 closest cues to completion and so on. so basically u would only need to take 10-30 pics (1-3 pics per cue) a month and send them to their owners. i honestly do not see that taking more than 30-45 minutes. but this keeps ur customers in the loop. they are less likely to call and bug u if they know u r actually doing stuff to the cue rather than just sitting there hoping u r working on their cue. for those that argue taking this time to take pics results in less time spent in the shop, consider that the 30-45 minutes of phototaking and emailing will probably result in less calls and long discussions regarding updates etc. which ends up saving u a lot more time. if a customer sees that work is progressing they will leave u alone (not all, but most will), if he or she has to call u to get reassurance that u're working on their cue then they will do that continually. since they cant see the cue, they call frequently to make sure that u r still working on their cue and that u havent forgotten about them. it sounds stupid but many cuemakers have experienced this. so taking 30-45 minutes out of each month to take a few pics seems more than reasonable.

furthermore, taking a picture here and there to assure the customer that the cue is being made is part of the process so time should be devoted to it. just like the customer has a responsibility to put a deposit on the cue in order to ensure material and labour costs, a cuemaker has a responsibility to send a picture once in a while to assure the customer that his or her money is actually being used towards the materials and that the part of the deposit devoted to partial labour costs are actually producing a semi-completed cue. the customer is responsible for paying the remaining balance for the delivery of the completed cue and the cuemaker is then responsible for delivering the cue.

also, when u go to the for sale section, whenever someone tries to sell a cue without pics he gets bashed to pieces and everyone agrees with it. it's basically the same thing here, except u're buying the cue directly from the cuemaker.

 

[ShootingArts]

everything you do represents your business

We're not talking about you. if someone throws down some cash and asks for a picture at one point during the building process it shouldn't be a big deal. nobody's saying the guy demanded high grade pro photographer pics just a few snap shots so the guy can get an idea of what's going on.

just because the guy asked for a few pictures doesn't mean he's going to nitpick everything. i've asked for pictures from different cue makers that were building me a cue and they provided 'em without a hitch.

Everything you turn out represents your business. Everybody doesn't take photographs at the level I do but anyone that doesn't send out decently lit well positioned photographs without major glare, exposure, or focus issues is making a mistake. First off, the customer can't tell much by crappy pictures, second off, some of these pictures will be shown to other people and the people's first reaction is that doofus can't even take a picture as simple as that is, I don't want him building a cue for me!

Taking pictures of your work is a lot different than taking a snapshot, or it should be.

Hu

 

[Hierovision]

With the inexpensive and decent quality point-and-shoots out today there's no excuse for crappy pics. Heck, I knew a professional photographer that used disposables.

The quality of pics is not the issue, it's the proof of progress. He can take a halfway decent picture with a camera phone (they're getting better these days) and I can guarantee that would have satisfied the OP. After all the hiccups that would've been a VERY reasonable request, and well within the capabilities of any warm-blooded upright humanoid.

 

[tomgearhart]

How Many Sides To A Story?

I've found, with few exceptions, that there are three sides to every story:

1) The OP's side
2) Jim's side
3) What really happened

:thumbup:

 

[ScottR]

I'm sure this is a non-sequitar, but I must be one of those weird cue buyers who works with each cue builder according to his business model. I have bought from cue makers who employ varying combinations of the following:

- lock down your specs/design on the phone
- lock down your specs/design in writing
- take a small deposit
- take a decent % deposit
- take no deposit
- put you on their list with no definitive start or delivery time
- put you on their list with a definitive start and delivery time
- lock in prices at the time of order
- tell me that pricing will be at the prevailing rate when the cue is started
- proactively update me on where I stand on the wait list
- provide no update on where I stand on the wait list
- proactively provide updates and pictures during the cue's build
- provide no updates or pictures during the build
- proactively contacted me about proposed design or build changes
- surprised me with a design change that improved my original idea
- answer phone calls or email promptly
- not so quick on answering calls or email
- delivered the cue early
- delivered the cue late, but proactively informed me beforehand of the delay
- delivered the cue late, but not by much
- followed up after delivery to see if I was happy and solicit feedback on the cue
- didn't follow up at all after delivery

I have enjoyed each journey working directly with a cue maker and have gotten the cue that I wanted. I must be the world's easiest cue buyer. :grin:

Scott

 

[sengkun108]

Hi Mr Hu

So you said that the cuemaker don't have time to chat and taking Pic of his Customer cue (Which is part of his responsibility) and the cuemaker have time to chat and advertise his work in a forum like this, get real.

I don't think this thread is about Jim lee and Merlin anymore, i think we've got a bigger issue here, the cuemaker vs the customer.

If I am a cue maker, i will do thing as follow.

Lock down the design in writing.
Lock down the price
take some deposit.
Proactively provide updates and pics every months
(Part of the job)

 

[sengkun108]

put ETA
answer all the customer mail or phone
delivered the cue on time or delivered the cue late, but proactively informed the customer beforehand of the delay (not by much of course, maybe 1-2 month)

Best :smile:
Dedy (Indonesia)

 

[Danktrees]

I tried three times and didn't make it through your big block of text you didn't break down into paragraphs. However if you kept up with the thread you would realize that I was replying to what I quoted of Mike's post. He, you, most everybody realizes that taking photographs is a bit more time consuming than first claimed.

Talking on the phone, taking pictures, handling shop visits, none of these things are too time consuming when talking about one customer. However when you start talking about a dozen or two customers then unless you handle it in an orderly manner production comes to a halt while you accommodate the customers who want updates. Aside from anything else, it wrecks the flow of concentration while trying to do quality work. Try running a few racks while answering questions on the phone, talking to the folks passing by visiting and taking a few pictures of something behind the bar and sending to somebody.

I had a little three or four man shop. I also had customers that wanted status reports on their "babies". There was many a day that I personally didn't do anything towards getting work out until after I closed the gate and quit answering the phone after close of business.

Hu

i know u were responding to mike's post, but u gave an inaccurate example, all he was saying is that it doesnt take much time to take a photo to send to the customer. he never said that u should stop everything that u're doing to take a photo every time someone asks.


all that i was addressing is that ur example is unrealistic and has nothing to do with anything he says since he never proposed that u should stop everything and take pictures whenever they are requested. if u had actually read my post (i've received rep for it so if other people can do it, so can u) then u will see that i was simply refuting ur extreme example and provided a viable yet simple solution to resolve this simple problem.

like i said too, taking photographs is time consuming when u do it in an unorganized manner (such as the example u gave). but then again, everything is troublesome and time consuming if u don't plan it out before u do it. if u dont have a system worked out then u need to develop one quickly.

my solution is simple and takes very little time. also consider that if u r sending pics once a month (like in my solution) then u dont even have to take the pics all at one time so it really doesnt consume too much of ur time to provide these pictures. either way, it is the responsibility for the customer to pay for services rendered, but the cuemaker also has a responsibility to show the customer what his or her money is paying for. just because it's a "hassle" is not an excuse as there are very simple solutions to this most basic problem.

in the end, being able to reassure the customer that his cue is being worked on (by sending a few pics once every 3 months or something) will result in less phone calls and less people bugging u because they know u're actually working on their stuff rather than having to just trust that u're working on their cue. if u tell the customer beforehand that they will get updates once every 3 months and actually do it, then most people will just leave u alone because they have a reason to trust u with their money.

if however no deposit was given then u dont owe anyone anything and pics are not necessary.

 

[JB Cases]

It cracks me up when every cuemaker or casemaker that frequents this site is in a rush to post some fancy case or cue they finished in order to stroke their own ego. Yet a customer who's paying good money gets grief for wanting a photo every now and then to prove you are as far as you say you are with the cue. Pretty damn funny if you ask me.

Um, I think I can safely speak for myself and my colleagues that not EVERY case maker, nor every cue maker who frequents this site gives their customers grief for requesting updates.

I will however echo Eric's sentiment that doing updates does take some time and it's not just a "minute" either.

Yesterday I did a video update. It took me two minutes to do the video, 30 minutes to upload it, five minutes to do all the settings. Ten minutes to write the email notifying the customer of the video and additional information.

When I started this business I swore to myself to build in a system to take pictures every day of every project and email that to people every day. Three years later I still don't have that system down but we are closer and do send out progress pix several times a week. This is only possible though because I have an assistant who will take care of this for me. Without her I would do this sporadically at best.

Even when I tell people I will send them pictures I forget to tell my assistant to send pictures.... :-(

Without a good system in place I can't imagine a person who does all the work by themselves doing much in the way of updates with images.

My rule in our shop is that at the end of the day everything gets cleaned up and we take pictures of the work in progress and then later that evening or first thing in the morning the pictures are emailed. We don't always do this every day but we try.

I am however THE WORST at answering email and private messages. If I have one habit I'd like to change then it would be to develop the habit of answering all emails immediately and not putting them off until later.

Well, I really have nothing to add to the thread but I figured this was a cheap way to go to confessional......

Eric - your case is almost done. - will be a surprise.
Greg - Your case isn't even drawn up yet
Lenny - your cases are almost done. Pix sent.
Jim - your case is almost done. Video sent.
Bruce - your case isn't started yet.
Art - your case is almost done.
Murray - on the drawing board.
Gillian - your case is on the drawing board
Mike - almost done
Marcus - it's coming I promise!!!
Christian - I am stuck on the design.
Ross - Halfway done.
Donny - PLEASE send me your address - yours is done.
Vince - We are about to start tooling yours.
Tony - on the drawing board

Who did I miss? Well there are many that I did miss and who I owe cases to. This list is only a partial sample of the people I am having conversations with regarding their orders.

I really need a better system, a better system? I need a system period.

Well, I am really grateful for my customer's patience - thank you all.

 

[XxMerlinxX]

Oh man, John I was about to PM you to see how busy you were, but I guess I have my answer, lol.

 

[JB Cases]

Oh man, John I was about to PM you to see how busy you were, but I guess I have my answer, lol.

lol - the best thing I can tell you is to just ask and get the conversation started. We are getting 'most' cases out within four months - some much sooner - some unreasonably later.

 

[JB Cases]

One tip I would like to give to all the people who do picture updates is to set your camera's settings to take the pictures in a small format like 400x600 and a lower resolution so that they can then be emailed without any further editing. If you take pictures at the highest resolution and largest size then often they are too big to email and will clog up your email as well as the receiver's box.

I also recommend, although I don't do this as much as I should, that you post the picture s to an online album for the customer and other people to view at their leisure.

Something like this: http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=2162

 

[ShootingArts]

always funny

It is always funny to see what some people think they are entitled to when they order something. When you order something from me you are entitled to what you ordered, when I said it would be ready. There is nothing else that you purchased or that you are entitled to. While I may do more and often do more, not a bit more is owed to a customer. I do understand people calling for quick updates now and then. I also understand people asking if I can send pictures because they are curious what their new baby looks like. I may or may not be able to accommodate them at the moment but I understand the request.

I don't understand the people that call over and over when I have already updated them and they know when to expect the next step completed, I don't understand the people demanding pictures so they can see if their project is actually being worked on. All business relationships rely on a certain amount of trust. I trust every supplier I deal with. I trust my customers to be reasonable people. When there isn't trust on both ends I simply terminate the business relationship. I have found that less than 10% of customers take up 90% of my time spent dealing with customers. Smarter to send those few customers down the road to be somebody else's headache. This makes my days far more productive and the rest of my customers happy.

Hu