Issues with Jim Lee, Part 2.

[JB Cases]

It is always funny to see what some people think they are entitled to when they order something. When you order something from me you are entitled to what you ordered, when I said it would be ready. There is nothing else that you purchased or that you are entitled to. While I may do more and often do more, not a bit more is owed to a customer. I do understand people calling for quick updates now and then. I also understand people asking if I can send pictures because they are curious what their new baby looks like. I may or may not be able to accommodate them at the moment but I understand the request.

I don't understand the people that call over and over when I have already updated them and they know when to expect the next step completed, I don't understand the people demanding pictures so they can see if their project is actually being worked on. All business relationships rely on a certain amount of trust. I trust every supplier I deal with. I trust my customers to be reasonable people. When there isn't trust on both ends I simply terminate the business relationship. I have found that less than 10% of customers take up 90% of my time spent dealing with customers. Smarter to send those few customers down the road to be somebody else's headache. This makes my days far more productive and the rest of my customers happy.

Hu

I have never had a customer demand pictures for a progress report. People who order custom things are anxious to get it. They are like kids at Christmas and when the day comes when they were told they would get and they don't it's a big letdown. Then each passing day diminishes that joy just a little more and a little more.

And each time they then ask for progress reports and updates and new delivery times and get put off then it diminishes the excitement even more.

I understand this.

I promise to do better. Many of my customers could put up a thread similar to this and they are gracious enough not to.

It's a really simple proposition. Take the order and give the customer a date you can hit. If you need five months then tell him seven and have it ready in five. If all of us who build custom stuff would do this then a thread like this one would never show up again.

Some of you know that Jack Justis and I have had our issues. Well one thing I admire about Jack is that he gets the cases out on time. He has has his system down cold and he gets it done. He also doesn't spend a lot of time on AZ talking about crap.

None of this is on the customer. Threads like this get started out of nothing more than a person being frustrated with the feeling that they have no where else to go with their complaints.

I have had some conversations with Jim Lee and I think that he is a good guy. I don't know why the customer's order was put off for so long but I do know that anyone who is in business doesn't really want unhappy customers. So I am sure it pains Jim to see this thread. Hopefully it be the catalyst to spur him and others in the business (including me) to reevaluate our respective methods of handling orders and insure that such a thread never comes up again.

 

[poolplayer2093]

It is always funny to see what some people think they are entitled to when they order something. When you order something from me you are entitled to what you ordered, when I said it would be ready. There is nothing else that you purchased or that you are entitled to. While I may do more and often do more, not a bit more is owed to a customer. I do understand people calling for quick updates now and then. I also understand people asking if I can send pictures because they are curious what their new baby looks like. I may or may not be able to accommodate them at the moment but I understand the request.

I don't understand the people that call over and over when I have already updated them and they know when to expect the next step completed, I don't understand the people demanding pictures so they can see if their project is actually being worked on. All business relationships rely on a certain amount of trust. I trust every supplier I deal with. I trust my customers to be reasonable people. When there isn't trust on both ends I simply terminate the business relationship. I have found that less than 10% of customers take up 90% of my time spent dealing with customers. Smarter to send those few customers down the road to be somebody else's headache. This makes my days far more productive and the rest of my customers happy.

Hu

i'm betting you're the kind of guy that has stuff done when he says he's going to.

if only everyone was more like you hu

 

[manwon]

Hello XxMerlinxX, I am not going to comment on this thread other than to say I understand your feelings, your intent, and your motivation for doing what you have done. The only problem is it is not serving any purpose, because these threads are stored where others can not easily find them. In time this thread will be forgotten by most and when some one else wants to look for answers all they will have to go on is a persons I-trader comments which is next to nothing at all. I personally think the forum should have a place where old threads like this are easily accessed when they are put to bed. This way the seller or buyer who ever was proven right will be vindicated, in my opinion without this being done nothing really matters in the end.

JIMO

 

[Danktrees]

It is always funny to see what some people think they are entitled to when they order something. When you order something from me you are entitled to what you ordered, when I said it would be ready. There is nothing else that you purchased or that you are entitled to. While I may do more and often do more, not a bit more is owed to a customer. I do understand people calling for quick updates now and then. I also understand people asking if I can send pictures because they are curious what their new baby looks like. I may or may not be able to accommodate them at the moment but I understand the request.

I don't understand the people that call over and over when I have already updated them and they know when to expect the next step completed, I don't understand the people demanding pictures so they can see if their project is actually being worked on. All business relationships rely on a certain amount of trust. I trust every supplier I deal with. I trust my customers to be reasonable people. When there isn't trust on both ends I simply terminate the business relationship. I have found that less than 10% of customers take up 90% of my time spent dealing with customers. Smarter to send those few customers down the road to be somebody else's headache. This makes my days far more productive and the rest of my customers happy.

Hu

i generally agree with what u say here and i dont know why people constantly call for updates too. i know i dont do it, heck i rarely even ask for updates, if i do it's only to see how much longer i have before i need to get the rest of the money together for the remaining balance.

i think the difference of opinion occurs regarding whether the cuemaker "owes" (for a lack of a better word) the customer pics of the cue's progress or not. i dont think the cuemaker owes constant updates but i do think that at some point the cuemaker should show some of the work done on the cue. trust can only go so far and u cant expect someone to trust u when they dont even know u. they've trusted u enough to give u a deposit upfront, now they have to further trust that their cue is being made when in reality they have no idea what is going on with it.

that is a lot of faith for anyone to put into someone that they dont know. i think u can see why some people dont see it the same way u do. if u're going to ask the customer to trust u and put down a deposit (especially for newer lesser known cuemakers) then at some point u should reciprocate that trust with something to show the progress of the cue whether its a picture or just a simple update saying u've glued the forearm together. if u take the deposit, say u'll work on it then never talk to the guy again, well then u cant be annoyed or find it unreasonable if he calls asking for updates (saying this in general, not directing this at anyone in particular).

it's similar to when u buy a cue, u send the money and are trusting the person to ship the cue. if he takes ur money then never talks to u again, u're going to start freaking out until the cue shows up. some people might not say anything but most people will send a pm asking for tracking number etc. it's the same thing when u commission a cue, u're paying to buy a cue, u put ur money down and if u never hear from the guy again then sooner or later u'll send a request for an update. this might sound a bit blunt but i think its a valid point - just like someone selling a cue is required to show proof of shipment, the cuemaker should be required to show proof of work on the cue.

i think if u're going to ask people to put their trust in u to put down a deposit then u have to show that u're worthy of that trust at some point. even if it's just with a minor update thru a quick email. the whole reason for the deposit is to cover cost of materials and such in case the buyer backs out. well if thats the case and u dont trust the buyer then it's hard to expect him to trust u with a deposit and to just leave u alone completely until u feel like contacting him.

so i think if u require a deposit then u need to reciprocate the trust that the buyer has put in u by giving u money upfront. if however, u dont require a deposit then u dont owe anyone anything.

 

[sengkun108]

Good Post JB
Good Post Danktrees

I'm an indonesian, i know many of you don't trust foreigner like me. That's why i always offer to put some deposit (50-100%) upfront, yes 100%, it's mean that i pay my bill upfront. Why i do that, because i want my cuemaker thing that i am a good customer for him, respect me and don't mess up with his work for me. I want him to thing that i'm such an easy to deal with so i must keep him as my customer. I'm his Boss, he is my employee. But i'm a good boss, a patience one. If my employee not work well and he 's got a reasonable excuse, I can take that. But i'm old enough and experience enough to know if my employee lie to me and i don't like a liar or a cheater, nobody do. If my employee is good with his work, i will advertise him to my friend, praise his work and maybe my friend will trust him to do a work for as i do.

 

[powerlineman80]

I havent read the thread yet but will say the same once again. Jim Lee is a standup guy in my book and always will be. He gave me a discount on a cue and helped me find the woods I wanted in it as it was my first custom cue. He then built my youngest Nephew a custom cue as well. Jim sent NUMEROUS pm's to me showing updates from where it was all in 100 pieces to the finished thing on BOTH cues. He was about 2-3 months behind but that is to be expected IMHO. Shit happens.

I paid $200 deposit which didnt bother me one bit and never will. I expected that as he is no established cue company with the overhead they have to you have to expect that. I remember your story and have heard Jim's side and there is two sides to every story. I'm not going to say anything as it was all in private and will stay that way.

Jim is also building me a 2nd custom cue which is a Titlist Tribute Cue and I cant wait to get it. It is coming up and I have full faith in Jim and his skills and it will get here on time.

So in my book and many others, Jim Lee is a stand up guy all the way. Thats all I'll say.

BTW-Jim also had health problems in this time frame as well. I find it funny some cuemakers have health problems and they are praised and money gets raised but some do it and they are burned at the stake for it.

 

[ShootingArts]

I follow John's recommendation

i'm betting you're the kind of guy that has stuff done when he says he's going to.

if only everyone was more like you hu

I follow John's recommendation, have for many years before I met John. If it looks like a six month project if everything goes perfectly I tell people nine. If they get it in six months or a few weeks less they are thrilled. If murphy's law came into play and they get it in seven or eight months or even nine they are still happy because I told them nine months to begin with. On the rare occasions I don't deliver when I said I would the customer has the option of a full refund if he wants it or a deep discount if he wants to wait on the project to be finished. I can afford to do this because I very rarely miss a deadline I set myself. I also don't let customers crowd me into their deadline if it forces me to rush anything or leaves no room for minor delays.

Sometimes it isn't possible to set a completion date for a project or there is a huge window due to some factors being outside my control. I tell customers when this is the case too, before either of us commit to the project. The key to happy customers is getting everybody's ducks in a row and making sure you are on the same page to begin with.

Most people building to order are overly optimistic, doesn't matter what they are building. They figure the date if everything goes perfect and give that date or they may even shave some off of that date if they are needing business. Things going perfectly is rare, if we are lucky there are just minor issues. Having to refinish twice extra could cost over a month delay getting something out of my shop and that can happen. It is a minor issue but the wait time between each attempted redo makes it a major delay.

If I start crowding a due date and see the project is likely to not be complete by then I contact the customer well in advance and discuss it with them too. Nobody is blindsided when they come looking for something or are expecting me to ship. I have been the customer many times too and I treat people the way I want to be treated.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm as eager as anyone

i generally agree with what u say here and i dont know why people constantly call for updates too. i know i dont do it, heck i rarely even ask for updates, if i do it's only to see how much longer i have before i need to get the rest of the money together for the remaining balance.

(trimmed for length)

so i think if u require a deposit then u need to reciprocate the trust that the buyer has put in u by giving u money upfront. if however, u dont require a deposit then u dont owe anyone anything.

There are times when I am the customer too. I'm as eager as anyone to know what is going on, particularly when I have a horse or dog in training. I want to know if the animal that I have sometimes put years of effort and thousands of dollars into to get to the point of sending them to the trainer is healthy, I want to know what progress is being made, I want to know all the things a person waiting on a cue wants to know and a dozen more. I send the money and sit tight until the trainer has had time to accomplish something or more commonly until he invites me to come see progress. I passed in front of one trainer's barn at least four or five times a week. Tough to not check on my horse. It wasn't fair to the trainer to do it so I drove right on by.

I don't take deposits except when somebody wants something off the wall or out of unusually expensive materials. I think that sengkun108 may be having a little difficulty communicating in english but many people do think that you become their employee when you agree to take on a project for them. These are the ones that make many ridiculous demands and ultimately delay everyone's project. When they waste an hour of my time on the phone, they not only set back their project one hour, they set back every other project in my shop one hour too. Same story when somebody wants photographs. No big deal when they want them on my schedule, a big deal when they think I should rush to get pictures to them.

To repeat what I said earlier, I don't do business with people I don't trust and I don't do business with people that don't trust me. I don't think anyone should do business with someone they don't trust and I certainly don't think they should send someone they don't trust money they can't afford to lose and forget about it.

All a deposit does is cement an agreement. Nobody is owed anything different because they gave a deposit or because they didn't. I give excellent customer service. When somebody tells me I owe these things I often choose to give then I am very apt to explain to them exactly what I owe and exactly what they will receive! :grin: :grin: :grin:

Hu

 

[sengkun108]

I think you are a good man Mr Hu:smile: and a good businessman also:smile::smile:

 

[smokey]

i just have a few words Merlin...

Hey guys, so as you may have noticed, the original thread was deleted due to some members going at each other. I messaged Mr. Wilson and was told the reason, which I think is fair, and was given the go ahead to post up a second thread that is something of an update to the first. Hopefully this thread will stick around, so I'm going to give a very condensed version of the history behind all of this, then I'll make the update.

I originally ordered a cue from Jim Lee 2 years ago, a year of which was simply planning and ironing out details. After getting everything set in stone, Jim gave me a firm completion date of 8 months, stating that in all actuality it would be less than that. After the 8 months were up, I contacted him again and was told that basically no progress had been made and that no firm completion date would be given. I asked for a refund of my deposit, which he agree to, and he said I would receive it shortly as it was his #1 priority. Shortly turned into more than a month and when I contacted him by phone, it sounded like he didn't know what I was talking about, and that he would have to check his funds. This is after selling not only a $4k-$5k lathe, (I can't remember which it was, he edited that thread) but running a sale on wraps that should have produced another $540. I told Jim I was tired of being jerked around and that I would give him a week before going public on the board in search of a resolution. At this point, Jim then threatened me with holding my deposit money hostage if I did post up on the board. Since I felt like I wasn't ever going to get my money back, I did so anyway.

For those of you who saw the original thread, you know that the above is indeed the short of it and that I was much more detailed in what actually transpired. You also saw that one member, smokey, who started to really get into it with another member, actually offered to refund my deposit in Jim's stead. It bothered me that someone would have to do this for what seemed like a reputable seller, but I did indeed take smokey up on his offer in the hopes that his relationship with Jim would net him better results than it had netted me.

Smokey, I'd like to thank you yet again, and say that what you've done is one of the most stand up actions I've ever seen, especially considering it was all done over the internet. I put in a good word with Mr. Wilson and I hope you get to stick around.

To Jim Lee, I cannot believe you would treat one of your customers in such a fashion. Not only had I ordered that cue from you, but I even told you I was looking forward to having a Jump Cue made and having a titlist converted as well once the first cue was finished. I always think it's kind of funny when I hear the phrase, "You should be ashamed of yourself." as it brings back some amusing childhood memories, but I wish that there was a more serious way of conveying that same thought. I won't resort to name calling, but I definitely have a few choice words I could pin on you.

To the rest of the board, thank you for the support and the green rep, I really do appreciate it.

it is so easy to condemn a man...
be aware

it is so easy to hurt someone...
be aware

it is so easy to ruin a man
be aware

being aware all i can say is...
i have a Great Cue from jim. he is a one man shop like so many here. but not like a showman, or BB. just a MAN. a MAN who loves building cues. he is NOT rich. i am sure he is poor. he just loves building cues.

"think" my friend

in the end, that is all you have - your mind

your attitude

and then; your legacy...

that is all i have to say,
smokey

 

[ShootingArts]

it is so easy to condemn a man...
be aware

it is so easy to hurt someone...
be aware

it is so easy to ruin a man
be aware

being aware all i can say is...
i have a Great Cue from jim. he is a one man shop like so many here. but not like a showman, or BB. just a MAN. a MAN who loves building cues. he is NOT rich. i am sure he is poor. he just loves building cues.

"think" my friend

in the end, that is all you have - your mind

your attitude

and then; your legacy...

that is all i have to say,
smokey

I looked at a Jim Lee cue Saturday. It was a beautiful and well made cue with a proud owner. It wasn't for sale. His other cue in the case was a Sugartree, it wasn't for sale either. Some folks just like you to drool all over their stuff so they can say mine, mine, mine! Actually Michael is a nice guy and I was glad to look at the Jim Lee since this thread was going and always happy to see a Sugartree.

Hu

 

[GoTulane]

Nice meeting you too!!!

I looked at a Jim Lee cue Saturday. It was a beautiful and well made cue with a proud owner. It wasn't for sale. His other cue in the case was a Sugartree, it wasn't for sale either. Some folks just like you to drool all over their stuff so they can say mine, mine, mine! Actually Michael is a nice guy and I was glad to look at the Jim Lee since this thread was going and always happy to see a Sugartree.

Hu

Yeah, it was great meeting you too. Always nice to meet a fellow AZB'r.

But I didn't tell you the story behind the JL cue - I just got it back at the end of last week after it went missing for about 6 months. Somehow it turned up at my local bar and the bartender called me about it. Missing one of the shafts, but it looks to be in good condition. Gotta love Jim's shafts!!!! I am just happy to have it back in my hands.
I shoulda played the tourney, but you never wanna press your luck!!! My wife said I shoulda played the powerball.

Now I just want to see some of your work, because I bet they play!!!

Hu - Thanks for the compliments. Maybe we can both enter the tourney in June? I either gotta practice a lot more, or I can write it off my taxes as a donation.


Michael

 

[Dave38]

quoted from first post "This is after selling not only a $4k-$5k lathe, (I can't remember which it was, he edited that thread"

I'm the person that bought the lathe, I don't know where you got that figure from, as even brandnew, it is alot less than that. I can only comment on my experience with Jim, but for the amount you had at stake, it wasn't crap to what I did. Jim not only delivered greatly, Jim was pleasent to deal with, and very accomodating. It took about a week to get the money together, and He was fine with that. Not like a lot of other impatient people on this forum. He understood my situation. Everything went as planned.
XXmerlinX, I believe if you got your money back, and all is well, then you should be happy and let it go. It seems that this second thread is only so you can punish him further. Most people on this forum see a thread such as this and take the chance to dump on someone they don't know, and have no knowledge of the REAL situation and sound like they are all knowing. Everyone has a Holier than thou approach to the accused Evil cuemaker, but 98% haven't even come close to dealing with a situation like this from the cuemaker's side. There are ALWAYS 3 sides to a story, his, yours, and what really happened, and they rarely ever come close to matching.
I commend Eric/qbuilder on being very good at showing the other side that most here never think about, nor care about. You handled it with class, Eric. Greenie to you:wink: And also bg grenies to Smokey:thumbup:
Just my thoughts...
Dave

 

[smokey]

jor the lynch mod, i will do what my 'black heart' say not to do. i will post....

this was sent to me from a fine human being, Jim


I am sorry you feel this way towards me now. I am sure the person who pm'ed you this wonderful information is a friend to you.
I am able to take care of my own. No need for any bail outs on my part.But I do appreciate the kindness.
There is much more to this whole story than I will ever take the time to post.
I have seen this thread as told today thru pm's from valued friends and customers that truly know me and respect me.
I will say this-
Merlin was offered a refund after he rudely canceled a special order cue with me after I had many hours of work into the cue,special dyes and items specific to his cue only.
And last night , while on speaker phone due to I was in the middle of wrapping a cue, he began cursing and threatening in front of my wife and children who were in the room.
This will not be tolerated as I asked him to stop and he f'ed me off and continued.
All in my families ears as I did not even have time to leave the room away from their ear shot
I was sick and in the hospital for almost 4 months during this period of neglect as Merlin calls it. But I will not go into that with you or any one.
So Miles , if this is the way you feel towards me , that is just the way it is.
I do not have time to spend arguing with a forum of people who do not even know me or have never done business with me as is the fact of most of these people.
Now with your source Tommie aka Hangemhigh, he got what he ordered!
Take care,
Jim lee

i have betrayed a trust...

i will never ask for forgiveness for this as i must do my duty as a human being and only answer for my mistakes, but to me this is no mistake, and if i am wrong, i will gladly pay the price, whatever it may be...

here in my hand is another side of the story...

i just wanted the "pain to go away"

it did not really matter to me who caused it, as it still does not now

but in the long ans short of it, i wanted ALL OF YOU TO KNOW;

it was not Jim

i may be old, but rest assured, i am not a fool

best,
smokey lambchop aka miles

 

[SCCues]

I had partially composed an opinion to post in the first thread but when I looked to view the thread again for some clarification, the thread was gone.
Most of what I'd written then was relevant then but possibly not now.
I have no interest in defending or prosecuting anyone in this matter, I only want to expand on something that was briefly touched-on in the orig. thread.

What I would hope the cue buying public at large would come to understand is that most every time you ask a cue-builder to give you an ETA, you're asking him to subject himself to a lie. He doesn't WANT to do it but you're asking him to tell you SOMETHING. The problem is, he can no more do that honestly, than he can tell you what you will have for lunch in 3 days. He can't predict the future; nobody can.
He can't tell you what will be coming through his door tomorrow, next week or next month. Any one of those future jobs has the potential to upset his entire schedule for every job in his shop. Events that aren't even cue related can cause delays; sometimes, serious delays.

We tend to be optimistic when quoting a time-line because we want your business and we'll do whatever we can to deliver the goods on time. We're aware of customer service. About the time the CM quotes you a date, he realizes that Murphy is standing right behind him. It happens, I know.

I would like you to consider something else. The CM doesn't take your money without every intention of doing what you are paying him to do. Those that do otherwise aren't in business very long.
When a CM starts getting behind and he's realizing he's getting behind, it triggers guilt. This guilt causes stress. I'm someone who has to have his head in a good place before I can do my best work. If I'm under a lot of stress, it will show in my work and I don't want that, for a lot of reasons.
You are part of this man's journey. Please don't be the source of his stress.

I'm not looking to engage in a lengthy debate on my statement. I just wanted to share a view from the other side of the transaction. No guilt, no innocence.
Just an honest observation from someone who's been there.

Man does not control time, time controls man.

This is a great post KJ and it makes a lot of sense......

James

 

[cubswin]

I can't believe I read this whole thread...


All I will say there is a small group of guys I'd give a deposit to. Mike Webb, Bob Dzuricky, Tim Scruggs, Mason, Joey and probably qbilder (and yes, I know he is slow as snails, and know better than to even ask for a eta).

Mason, Joey and Eric don't ask for them, at least not from my experience. Mike and Bob have a very good reputation for delivery on time. Bob from experience is usually ahead of time. Tim is just easy to work with, wish I had brought more cues from him.

New cuemakers usually want them, and also are the worse at being to accurately estimate time periods. That comes with experience, and being able to tell people a time frame they might not like. When you need the orders that is a tough thing to do.

 

[smokey]

cubs...

I can't believe I read this whole thread...


All I will say there is a small group of guys I'd give a deposit to. Mike Webb, Bob Dzuricky, Tim Scruggs, Mason, Joey and probably qbilder (and yes, I know he is slow as snails, and know better than to even ask for a eta).

Mason, Joey and Eric don't ask for them, at least not from my experience. Mike and Bob have a very good reputation for delivery on time. Bob from experience is usually ahead of time. Tim is just easy to work with, wish I had brought more cues from him.

New cuemakers usually want them, and also are the worse at being to accurately estimate time periods. That comes with experience, and being able to tell people a time frame they might not like. When you need the orders that is a tough thing to do.

your post is kind of funny cause the makers you mention don't even need your deposit money

but you have a good attitude for the newer makers i think, and that is great

all the best,
smokey

 

[hangemhigh]

your post is kind of funny cause the makers you mention don't even need your deposit money

but you have a good attitude for the newer makers i think, and that is great

all the best,
smokey

Smokey, since you saw fit to bring me into this I will clarify my dealings with Lee.

He asked for the remainder of the cost of a cue he was building for me, said it would be ready in a week. 5 months later I got the cue after being promised that the cue would ship no less that 6 times. He had no record of what we agreed to in the beginning, tried to lie his way out of what he originally agreed to, and did not deliver a quality cue made the way he agreed on initially. Luckily I keep copious records and had our correspondence of the original details as well as every other time we spoke about the cue. I had other cuemakers try and intervene on his behalf explaining how he did not know how to finish over Ivory, had no money for a refund( sound familiar?), and asked me to understand he was in way over his head.

I finally received a sub standard cue from him that was not built to our original agreement, had a butt cap that was .120 oversize to the finished butt on the cue. I could hold the butt upright and put a dime on the ridge between the butt cap and the sleeve and it would rest there without falling off.

I never mentioned any of these facts publicly, and had no intention to until Smokey's post where Lee conveniently left out the details about the cue he delivered. I lost a boat load of money on this deal, as his cues have no resale value, worse than a KC or Tia -can production cue.

I have every fact mentioned well documented, from his scam to get me to send him money when the cue was far from finished, the many times he said the cue was being shipped, to our original order, to the refusal to stand behind his product and refund my money when asked. Ifsomeone did not want my work, I never force them to take it, if that ever happened I would never want to force something on them that I knew they did not want. Lee will take your money, screw you over in several ways, and then refuse to refund you when you are at your wits end with his unethical business practices.

The relation of the facts of my dealings with Lee are irrefutable, there is nothing more to say or add, it is just the way it is and nothing said can explain it or make it better.

 

[cubswin]

your post is kind of funny cause the makers you mention don't even need your deposit money

but you have a good attitude for the newer makers i think, and that is great

all the best,
smokey

Bob I know likes to have them, but I also know on the two orders I have done with him he delivers ahead of what he says and is very easy to work with.

 

[smokey]

hangem...

Smokey, since you saw fit to bring me into this I will clarify my dealings with Lee.

He asked for the remainder of the cost of a cue he was building for me, said it would be ready in a week. 5 months later I got the cue after being promised that the cue would ship no less that 6 times. He had no record of what we agreed to in the beginning, tried to lie his way out of what he originally agreed to, and did not deliver a quality cue made the way he agreed on initially. Luckily I keep copious records and had our correspondence of the original details as well as every other time we spoke about the cue. I had other cuemakers try and intervene on his behalf explaining how he did not know how to finish over Ivory, had no money for a refund( sound familiar?), and asked me to understand he was in way over his head.

I finally received a sub standard cue from him that was not built to our original agreement, had a butt cap that was .120 oversize to the finished butt on the cue. I could hold the butt upright and put a dime on the ridge between the butt cap and the sleeve and it would rest there without falling off.

I never mentioned any of these facts publicly, and had no intention to until Smokey's post where Lee conveniently left out the details about the cue he delivered. I lost a boat load of money on this deal, as his cues have no resale value, worse than a KC or Tia -can production cue.

I have every fact mentioned well documented, from his scam to get me to send him money when the cue was far from finished, the many times he said the cue was being shipped, to our original order, to the refusal to stand behind his product and refund my money when asked. Ifsomeone did not want my work, I never force them to take it, if that ever happened I would never want to force something on them that I knew they did not want. Lee will take your money, screw you over in several ways, and then refuse to refund you when you are at your wits end with his unethical business practices.

The relation of the facts of my dealings with Lee are irrefutable, there is nothing more to say or add, it is just the way it is and nothing said can explain it or make it better.

wow..., wow...

i guess i gave you the platform to vent

my bad

and i am sure, 100% sure you have every document to prove your case

that's your experience and i am truly sorry for that

you must know [at least i hope you had in your mind] that what i posted was not ever intended to implicate you, but in good conscience i felt i should not "edit", and truly, i did think about it so if that was an error, i own it

i did what i did to clear a man [as i did what i did to clear merlin]

a man whom i feel is a fine man

you are free to think, you are free to say what you have to say

i as usual can not express my inner thoughts on a web forum, but i can tell you this my friend...

i lost Jim as a friend and i feel sad

and i guess i lost you as a friend and that further saddens me

in after trying to help to alleviate a situation that caused dissatisfaction to one party, i ended up the real loser [to many parties]

i did my best and that is all i ever ask myself [or anybody else] to do

so, you win...

all the best,
smokey