Issues with Jim Lee, Part 2.

[sengkun108]

I agree with all Jay Helfert comment..it's a good post a very good one

here is from a consumer prespective :
I have interest with a custom cue, i call the cuemaker, we talk and he promise me that cue will done in 6 month. he ask me to deposit money, let's say for $700, i did it. in the third month i ask him to send me the pic of my cue, he ignore it. so did i ask him again and the cuemaker always have an excuse to escape him from his responsibility. A year later he call me and said that the cue i order from him almost done, and it will take 2 month to deliver to me. So how do you deal with somebody like him. I can do nothing to him, because my money already deposit. if i angry or mad at him, i will lose both my cue and my money. So what do you think about this situation. I believe many customer have this experience. Just my opinion ofcourse

In My country (Indonesia), $700 mean alot, just for some information, our labor sallary for one full month just 125$.

Sorry if my english is not good, but at least you knoe what i mean.

Best
Dedy (New Member):smile:

 

[Spimp13]

Here's a different perspective. In general, the deal was made & deposit given. The builder busts ETA & buyer wants refund. Builder agrees but doesn't get the refund out on the buyer's time. This has all been private from day one, a deal between 2 people. Buyer gets upset & decides to tar & feather the builder in town square, over $250. Not once, but twice he posted a thread to publicly humiliate the builder over a private deal.

Not pointing any fingers at who was right & who was wrong, if I were a prospective builder & seen this I wouldn't touch this buyer with a 10 foot pole. I wouldn't even direct him to Wheatie. The buyer may or may not have been absolutely right the entire time and the builder wrong. But that still doesn't justify the public humiliation. If I were a prospective builder & seen this, it would be red flags of risk & danger and i'd stay away from this buyer. I wouldn't need to know who is right or wrong. I would clearly see what happens if something goes wrong in the deal.

Even in our public court systems, if a defendent doesn't pay his court ordered fines or dues, then he does jail time & once punished doesn't owe a thing. But the OP expects the builder to be punished AND pay. What gives?

Anyway, I got no dog in this fight & couldn't care less. I just wanted to point out another perspective. I don't care one way or the other, nothing to do with me. But as much negative that can be said for cuemakers, there's equally bad that can be said for buyers. Most buyers are good people, cue nuts who just want a cue & understand they are dealing with a person, a human, and things can easily go other than planned. Deal with it as it goes & no big deal. But there are others who expect to be treated like royalty & are demanding, then feel righteous enough to rope up the builder & drag him through the streets for everybody to see that he did wrong when something goes awry in the deal. Some even do it for cheap.

Again, i'm not banging on the OP. I don't know the guy, won't pass judgment. I'm just putting out a different perspective that has been overlooked. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, just looking at the situation through a cuemaker's eyes. I'm sure Jim is feeling like he is being publicly humiliated & mob bashed over $250, and regretting ever agreeing to build a cue for the OP. As bad as the buyer feels over not getting his $250 back in a hurry, how is the cuemaker feeling about losing potentially tens of thousands of dollars in prospective sales? Again, nobody knows who's right or wrong in the deal, or even knows the circumstances behind the truth. But everybody is quick to judge & point fingers & give their opinion of what is right & wrong & how the builder should live his life & conduct his business, as well as pointing towards people should only deal with big shot builders because they don't do this kind of stuff. Well, big shot builders were broke newbies once & somebody had to give them the chance to stretch their legs & run with it, or else they wouldn't exist. I guess i'm saying that the judging can go both ways & neither way is right. The situation should never have been made public.

The other thread was deleted so I can't reference it, and the OP can respond on this, but I am pretty sure multiple attempts to keep it private were made with no result. $250 may not be much to you, but it may be to the OP. I believe the OP discussed it with Jim, and mentioned he didn't want to to make it public but would if this would not get resolved in some way, and Jim didn't care if he made it public. It is hard to know the whole story since the other half has been quiet, so who knows the real flip side of this...

 

[qbilder]

I agree with all Jay Helfert comment..it's a good post a very good one

here is from a consumer prespective :
I have interest with a custom cue, i call the cuemaker, we talk and he promise me that cue will done in 6 month. he ask me to deposit money, let's say for $700, i did it. in the third month i ask him to send me the pic of my cue, he ignore it. so did i ask him again and the cuemaker always have an excuse to escape him from his responsibility. A year later he call me and said that the cue i order from him almost done, and it will take 2 month to deliver to me. So how do you deal with somebody like him. I can do nothing to him, because my money already deposit. if i angry or mad at him, i will lose both my cue and my money. So what do you think about this situation. I believe many customer have this experience. Just my opinion ofcourse

In My country (Indonesia), $700 mean alot, just for some information, our labor sallary for one full month just 125$.

Sorry if my english is not good, but at least you knoe what i mean.

Best
Dedy (New Member):smile:

This is a bad situation. First of all, I personally cannot stand deposits. It is potentially bad for both the buyer and the builder. Your statement clearly defines why it's bad for the buyer. The reason it's bad for the builder is because not only can it get him in trouble & stressed, it gives the buyer leverage to put lots of pressure on him. It would be a much smoother cue world if deposits never existed, IMO.

Another thing I wish buyers would consider is that taking pictures, uploading them & emailing them out takes time that could otherwise be spent in the shop. It's a pain in the ass. I'd rather be working on the cue than taking pictures of it's construction. We all enjoy taking pictures of finished cues. We all enjoy seeing pictures of cues in the works, but you can't fault a builder for not taking pictures of construction if he's busy doing something else.

 

[xianmacx]

As bad as the buyer feels over not getting his $250 back in a hurry, how is the cuemaker feeling about losing potentially tens of thousands of dollars in prospective sales?

I don't understand how you can spin this to point the blame on the consumer. Its like saying Toyota should quit selling cars to me because I brought up a recall issue.

Consumers have no reputation to uphold, its the responsibility of the mfg, no matter what the business, to uphold THEIR reputation.

I dont care if the OP is totally lying, If I knew I was risking thousands of dollars in future sales, isn't 250 just a drop in the bucket to be able to wash your hands and keep your reputation??

 

[Spimp13]

Another thing I wish buyers would consider is that taking pictures, uploading them & emailing them out takes time that could otherwise be spent in the shop. It's a pain in the ass. I'd rather be working on the cue than taking pictures of it's construction. We all enjoy taking pictures of finished cues. We all enjoy seeing pictures of cues in the works, but you can't fault a builder for not taking pictures of construction if he's busy doing something else.

Gotta disagree here. You don't have to take 20+ pictures 10 different times. 1-2 pictures just once even would have eased the pain in this situation if "this" or "that" have been done with the cue. It's not like this is a requirement for all orders, but with a situation like this, it would be worth it. Take the picture when you are done working in the shop for the day....it really does not take that long to take it, upload it and email it.

 

[xianmacx]

Gotta disagree here. You don't have to take 20+ pictures 10 different times. 1-2 pictures just once even would have eased the pain in this situation if "this" or "that" have been done with the cue. It's not like this is a requirement for all orders, but with a situation like this, it would be worth it. Take the picture when you are done working in the shop for the day....it really does not take that long to take it, upload it and email it.

Jerry R does a great job of this...on every cue he builds...Another awesome cuemaker and business person.

 

[Spimp13]

Jerry R does a great job of this...on every cue he builds...Another awesome cuemaker and business person.

To me, it shows the extra mile. I am not asking for pictures constantly....but once in a great while...it is exciting to see the cue in progress, not just at the end when it is ready to ship.

 

[Woof Biscuit]

I didn't read all of the responses so excuse me if I'm repeating. I did read what Jay wrote and agree with that. In addition, it sounds like most of this could have been avoided if the cue maker would have had good communication with the buyer. At the moment he realized that he couldn't meet the date that he quoted, he should have picked up the phone and called the buyer. At that point, a new date should have been quoted or a refund should have been offered. The customer should not have to chase you down. My time is valuable too.

 

[qbilder]

The other thread was deleted so I can't reference it, and the OP can respond on this, but I am pretty sure multiple attempts to keep it private were made with no result. $250 may not be much to you, but it may be to the OP. I believe the OP discussed it with Jim, and mentioned he didn't want to to make it public but would if this would not get resolved in some way, and Jim didn't care if he made it public. It is hard to know the whole story since the other half has been quiet, so who knows the real flip side of this...

Yeah I didn't follow the other thread to the end. But telling Jim to give the refund or else he'd out him in public, is bordering blackmail. That's not the way you bring out the best in people. And Jim's absence may be him attempting to take the high road in all this. Who knows? Nobody but the two involved know the truth. Coming public & being the only one to speak opens the OP up to public scrutiny. And for $250, you are very much correct that it might be a lot of money for the OP. But it's not a lot of money in the subject of cues, especially custom cues. $250 is a bargain, even for a deposit. If he were letting money dictate his decision making, then the old addage, "you get what you pay for", comes into play. $250 is $250 no matter who you are & it's good money. But the time & effort & stress the OP has put into ruining another man's reputation over that $250, he could have picked up $250 of aluminum cans from the roadside.

I don't disagree with you, or anybody else on here. Everybody has valid points. But the truth has yet to be revealed & as such, everything is speculative. The only thing we all know is that a cuemaker's business is going to suffer because of this. That's the only evident truth. Knowing that a guy will be losing lots of money without any actual proof of his fault is kind of saddening to me. It's not right. If he brought it on himself, then by all means he should expect to deal with the consequences. But the fact is nobody but he & the OP know for sure, and the OP's the only one talking. Like any other deal gone south, most likely both parties feel they are in the right. Again, it's just sad to see a guy suffer without justification. I was only offering up another perspective for thought.

 

[qbilder]

I don't understand how you can spin this to point the blame on the consumer. Its like saying Toyota should quit selling cars to me because I brought up a recall issue.

Consumers have no reputation to uphold, its the responsibility of the mfg, no matter what the business, to uphold THEIR reputation.

I dont care if the OP is totally lying, If I knew I was risking thousands of dollars in future sales, isn't 250 just a drop in the bucket to be able to wash your hands and keep your reputation??

I'm not turning anything around. Read closely & you'll see that i'm offering a different point of view & I clearly state that I personally have nothing against the OP & won't pass judgment. My post was for conversation purposes only, just to provoke some thought so people could see things aren't always as they appear to be. In this particular situation, it doesn't matter to me as I have no ties to either party. It just seems everybody is mobbing up & jumping on the bangwagon to bash at this cuemaker & they don't even really know why, no truth to validate their actions.

 

[Spimp13]

Yeah I didn't follow the other thread to the end. But telling Jim to give the refund or else he'd out him in public, is bordering blackmail. That's not the way you bring out the best in people. And Jim's absence may be him attempting to take the high road in all this. Who knows? Nobody but the two involved know the truth. Coming public & being the only one to speak opens the OP up to public scrutiny. And for $250, you are very much correct that it might be a lot of money for the OP. But it's not a lot of money in the subject of cues, especially custom cues. $250 is a bargain, even for a deposit. If he were letting money dictate his decision making, then the old addage, "you get what you pay for", comes into play. $250 is $250 no matter who you are & it's good money. But the time & effort & stress the OP has put into ruining another man's reputation over that $250, he could have picked up $250 of aluminum cans from the roadside.

I don't disagree with you, or anybody else on here. Everybody has valid points. But the truth has yet to be revealed & as such, everything is speculative. The only thing we all know is that a cuemaker's business is going to suffer because of this. That's the only evident truth. Knowing that a guy will be losing lots of money without any actual proof of his fault is kind of saddening to me. It's not right. If he brought it on himself, then by all means he should expect to deal with the consequences. But the fact is nobody but he & the OP know for sure, and the OP's the only one talking. Like any other deal gone south, most likely both parties feel they are in the right. Again, it's just sad to see a guy suffer without justification. I was only offering up another perspective for thought.

It is nice to see other cuemakers perspectives on this, good post... Potentially looking at legal action privately might be better then posting online here. I dunno...like you said I only see the tails side of the coin, not the heads...he might be taking the high road. In the end, once again props to Smokey for stepping up for his friend on the refund.

 

[qbilder]

Gotta disagree here. You don't have to take 20+ pictures 10 different times. 1-2 pictures just once even would have eased the pain in this situation if "this" or "that" have been done with the cue. It's not like this is a requirement for all orders, but with a situation like this, it would be worth it. Take the picture when you are done working in the shop for the day....it really does not take that long to take it, upload it and email it.

Are you buying a cue or are you buying photos? Are you contracting a cuemaker or a photographer? Would pictures dictate your choice in cuemakers? I can totally see your point of view & I agree with you. It still doesn't change the fact that it's time consuming & generally just a pain. For some guys it might be fine. For me, personally, I don't mind taking pics of cues during construction because i'm already at the computer a lot anyway & it's part of the fun for me. But I know several builders who put in very long hours & when they are done, they want to clean up & get some rest. Pictures aren't even part of their schedule.

 

[qbilder]

It is nice to see other cuemakers perspectives on this, good post... Potentially looking at legal action privately might be better then posting online here. I dunno...like you said I only see the tails side of the coin, not the heads...he might be taking the high road. In the end, once again props to Smokey for stepping up for his friend on the refund.

Legal action would have been ideal, IMO. It's why we have courts & we pay taxes to keep those courts open. Might as well get something out of our taxes. We pay for the system & should use it. Courts are in place to prevent often faulted vigilante justice.

 

[hangemhigh]

I think the issue is settled. From the beginning we knew the cue guy agreed to refund the deposit, he just didn't have the $250 to send him. The refund has been sent by someone who can afford to part with $250, and the cue guy is off the hook.

 

[qbilder]

I think the issue is settled. From the beginning we knew the cue guy agreed to refund the deposit, he just didn't have the $250 to send him. The refund has been sent by someone who can afford to part with $250, and the cue guy is off the hook.

Which brings to mind, why the second thread?

 

[gwjackal]

Which brings to mind, why the second thread?

Truely shows the age and understanding of some people.....



<----------------- knows jim IS taking the high road, maybe a few posters in this thread no matter the iTrader know more about it also....???

 

[ShootingArts]

$65 an hour

Everybody agree this is fair? My shop rate is $65 an hour. Isn't it fair for me to bill $65 an hour for talking on the phone when people want progress reports, entertaining customers when they visit, and taking pictures and getting them to the customer? All of these things are above and beyond what I contracted to do and all prevent me from doing what I contracted to do while handling these other things.

Does anyone here object to paying twenty dollars for a picture or two sent to them or a twenty minute phone call getting updates on progress? How about $65 when I stop work for an hour to answer your questions and show you the progress on your cue when you visit my shop?

Remember we aren't talking about one person here, all customers are entitled to the same treatment so that "few minutes" spent here and there has to be multiplied by every customer.

Hu

 

[hangemhigh]

Which brings to mind, why the second thread?

I don't know. I do know that one thread where both of us were on the same page about the cue guy mentioned here refunding the customers money and putting it behind him mysteriously dissapeared.

Strange too, it was started by him and every cue maker gave the same advice, but he decided to choose another path. The thread was informative and quite civil, no reason I could see to delete it, but it went the way of the other threads involving him, *poof* and it was gone.

 

[rhncue]

For years and years I never collected a deposit on a cue as I have never had any problem selling the finished cue to someone else. I now do not build cues just to sell. All my cues are completely custom built for whom ever ordered the cue. This makes resale to someone else more difficult if the original buyer defaults on the sale. I then must discount the cue slightly as the new buyer is not getting a cue specifically designed for him. I now get a 25 or at most a 50.00 deposit.

I'm getting much older and probably older than most on this forum and morals have changed over the years. When I was growing up the most valuable thing you owned was your reputation. When you give your word there should damn well be a good excuse why you can't keep it. When I give a completion date it is usually a week or two earlier when the cue is completed barring the shop burning down or I'm trapped in a hospital or such. Maybe once in 20 or 30 cues there is unexpected movement in the cue which may add a little time but this certainly should be conveyed to the purchaser.This is the way it should be. I hear people talk about "cue makers time" as if it should be expected and that is dead wrong. There's EST and CST but there's no cue makers time. How can anyone expect, or have the trust in a cue maker to get the attention to detail needed when constructing a cue if he doesn't know his equipment nor his abilities any better than to mis judge completion dates by 2 or 3 time factors. Although it takes time to build a cue letting the cue rest between cuts but there is not an actual lot of hours of work in a cue. The reason that some people put many hours of work into a cue is usually from either lack of experience or lack of equipment.

This tirade is not being made against Jim Lee per say as I really don't know both sides of the problem. It does sound as if trusts and commitments were not fulfilled however. I just feel this should be standard operating procedure in all cue construction contracts. Just why must there be such high deposits to commission a cue to be built? Either the builder is buying his materials from the wrong places or something as there just isn't much money actually tied up in a cue. It's almost all labor. If the builder is operating on that much of a shoe string he's in the wrong business. It's just a vicious circle. the builder is constantly chasing new orders and living off of the deposits instead of completing the orders he already has committed to. Mr. Ed was making a living off of nothing but promises and deposits.

It was also brought up that these problems should not be brought to light in a forum as this but settled undercover or through the courts. I don't agree with this in the least. There is no such thing as binding arbitration when a dispute occurs between a cue maker and a customer and going to court usually means the purchaser will just be throwing good money after bad. Small claims Court is an absolute joke. Even if you win a judgement try collecting any money.

Dick

 

[Spimp13]

Everybody agree this is fair? My shop rate is $65 an hour. Isn't it fair for me to bill $65 an hour for talking on the phone when people want progress reports, entertaining customers when they visit, and taking pictures and getting them to the customer? All of these things are above and beyond what I contracted to do and all prevent me from doing what I contracted to do while handling these other things.

Does anyone here object to paying twenty dollars for a picture or two sent to them or a twenty minute phone call getting updates on progress? How about $65 when I stop work for an hour to answer your questions and show you the progress on your cue when you visit my shop?

Remember we aren't talking about one person here, all customers are entitled to the same treatment so that "few minutes" spent here and there has to be multiplied by every customer.

Hu

All customers are entitled to the same treatment, but how many customers ask for pictures, what % out of curiosity (cuemakers chime in here)? I personally would be more then willing to throw an extra $20 on an order for pictures, or progress report etc. Some people may not. That could be an option that cuemakers can offer with the price of the cue that do not have the extra time to send the pictures as a possible median to this. With the pictures I was more referring to this situation of trying to see progress on the delayed order, not necessarily pictures on all orders.