Ivory............
- Thread starter whammo57
- Start date
runouteasy
Banned
The people at the base of the ivory trade are beyond poor. They will do what they need to feed their families. For us here to judge is nonsense. We've been enlightened for a couple decades and now tell the whole world what to think and do. It just doesn't work like that.
Anyone who believes there are only 400,000 elephants
left in all of Africa please contact me. I have ocean front
property in Indiana I'm gonna sell cheap!
Some places in Africa are over run with Elephants. They
are eating themselves out if existence. Over protected
from short sighted do gooders who don't bother with the
truth or reality.
In other places elephant numbers are severely reduced due
to political conflict or competition for sustenance between
humans and elephants. Hunting and poaching has little
impact on elephant populations but they are easy targets
for the propagandists who wish to raise money with a few
well placed photos and horror stories. Donate $20.00 and
make yourself feel good!
Joe
left in all of Africa please contact me. I have ocean front
property in Indiana I'm gonna sell cheap!
Some places in Africa are over run with Elephants. They
are eating themselves out if existence. Over protected
from short sighted do gooders who don't bother with the
truth or reality.
In other places elephant numbers are severely reduced due
to political conflict or competition for sustenance between
humans and elephants. Hunting and poaching has little
impact on elephant populations but they are easy targets
for the propagandists who wish to raise money with a few
well placed photos and horror stories. Donate $20.00 and
make yourself feel good!
Joe
Jodacus.......How About Global Warming?
Just wondering if you also refute and disbelieve in Global Warning?
Your statements, while obviously earnest in nature, are pretty ludicrous.
Next you'll tell us there are more polar bears now than ever before in history.
How about that the Rhode Island shore line isn't receding at a record rate.
Nope, I got one better.....how about this one......we have more clean water
on our planet now that when our world initially was formed. Can you wrap your
arms around that mistruth since there's more contamination today and exactly the
same amount of water as when earth was formed, i.e., water's hydrological cycle.
Please don't promote absolute falsehoods and misinformation about slaughtering elephants.
I'm a fan of ivory in cues but even I am not blind to the ghastly horrors taking place today.
Just wondering if you also refute and disbelieve in Global Warning?
Your statements, while obviously earnest in nature, are pretty ludicrous.
Next you'll tell us there are more polar bears now than ever before in history.
How about that the Rhode Island shore line isn't receding at a record rate.
Nope, I got one better.....how about this one......we have more clean water
on our planet now that when our world initially was formed. Can you wrap your
arms around that mistruth since there's more contamination today and exactly the
same amount of water as when earth was formed, i.e., water's hydrological cycle.
Please don't promote absolute falsehoods and misinformation about slaughtering elephants.
I'm a fan of ivory in cues but even I am not blind to the ghastly horrors taking place today.
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runouteasy
Banned
Take your BS to the NPR section.
Why? If it was NPR it would have been moved.
Bava and I don't usually don't see eye to eye. This is one of the firsts.
Must be Christmas.
But anyway, that was a great rebuttal for someone that doesn't have an answer for Bava. Pretty much dropped yourself out of the debate, if that is the best that you can do.
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Changing times
I live in Alaska and we are a hunting family and would rather eat moose, caribou, bison, etc. then store bought meat. Which we still buy, as we don't hunt chickens, pigs, etc. The only information I believe comes from conservation groups. Not anti hunters, Al Gore types, save the snail types, extreme environmentalists, poachers etc. Just responsible conservationists that manage through good science and experience. I like furs, but never personally got into trapping. I think elephant hunting is ok for the right reasons, herd control, crop and human protection, providing meat for villages and helping the local economy, etc. Controlled elephant hunting brings many benefits to many African countries. No, I don't have a desire to shoot an elephant. Any way, there is enough ivory to go around for almost any hobby types or cue makers. As with the rhino, the poachers do the most damage, and most of them are native to the country they poach in. No elephant, cow or other animal is sacred and they were put here for our use and we have a responsibility to be good stewards. Granted the days of the "ivory hunters" are long gone. But, there are enough elephants to allow controlled hunting with a sustained yield as the goal.
I live in Alaska and we are a hunting family and would rather eat moose, caribou, bison, etc. then store bought meat. Which we still buy, as we don't hunt chickens, pigs, etc. The only information I believe comes from conservation groups. Not anti hunters, Al Gore types, save the snail types, extreme environmentalists, poachers etc. Just responsible conservationists that manage through good science and experience. I like furs, but never personally got into trapping. I think elephant hunting is ok for the right reasons, herd control, crop and human protection, providing meat for villages and helping the local economy, etc. Controlled elephant hunting brings many benefits to many African countries. No, I don't have a desire to shoot an elephant. Any way, there is enough ivory to go around for almost any hobby types or cue makers. As with the rhino, the poachers do the most damage, and most of them are native to the country they poach in. No elephant, cow or other animal is sacred and they were put here for our use and we have a responsibility to be good stewards. Granted the days of the "ivory hunters" are long gone. But, there are enough elephants to allow controlled hunting with a sustained yield as the goal.
From your logic I would like to point out that Mother of Pearl does cause the death of the creature living in the shell. And they are kind of protected too. By the way they shoot poachers on site in countries that actually care about the Elephants and yet they still have to shoot elephants themselves to keep the population heathy. It is just like our Deer and Elk populations. They must allow hunting or they will not maintain a healthy population.
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Have you really found a substitute for Ivory that is better than Ivory for using in cues? I am interested in buying some, but have not found anything better or even close to it's equal yet. Camel bone is close as an inlay material, but not for ferrules, joints or butt plates. Nothing plays like Ivory.
You go after the druggies, and there are still drugs.
Should have burned the fields and the gone after the drug lords.
You go after johns and there is still prostitution.
Nothing going to change this...
Dead elephants an issue, go after the poachers. The problem is there is such a hunger for this in China, that if ivory hit 1000 dollars an ounce, the elephant trade just got MORE lucrative. What do you think is really going to happen?
So that is right, burn another 5 tons.. that will show them.... this is the most asinine fight/argument/conservation effort I have ever seen. This is what I would expect if Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy were running the effort.
JV
Should have burned the fields and the gone after the drug lords.
You go after johns and there is still prostitution.
Nothing going to change this...
Dead elephants an issue, go after the poachers. The problem is there is such a hunger for this in China, that if ivory hit 1000 dollars an ounce, the elephant trade just got MORE lucrative. What do you think is really going to happen?
So that is right, burn another 5 tons.. that will show them.... this is the most asinine fight/argument/conservation effort I have ever seen. This is what I would expect if Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy were running the effort.
JV
runouteasy
Banned
He lists 3 ivory joint cues in his collection. So he's part of the problem. Glorifying ownership of ivory and all.
And if there was a healthy market for them, as Ivory, they would also be on the Endangered Species list in no time as well.
They are still struggling with Bear poachers. They will slaughter a bear and leave it rot, just for the gall.
Hey, guess where the market is for Bear Gall.
China is one of the worst abusers for pretty much anything. I agree, kill the poachers and prosecute the people that are importing and owning it. China won't do that tho.
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Can we see some ivory cues?
Heres my late ebony mcdaniel and my current mcdaniel player
Heres my late ebony mcdaniel and my current mcdaniel player
I have noticed that his ivory was always the best, pure snow white with the finest grain. Cut from the nerve area of massive tusks harvested in a time where everything was plentiful around the world.
It is illegal
Yes, it is illegal to ship any artifact containing ivory, which includes pool cues, into or out of the U.S.A. Mainland or any U.S. territory for that matter.
For what it may be worth, this is what I've learned about the ivory regulation......I do my best to follow this closely because I have a vested interest in it.
In order to ship a pool cue or any artifact that has ivory, it must have a CITES certificate attesting to the fact that the ivory is pre-ban ivory dating prior to 1978. If someone were to claim that the information in their pool cue was pre-ban ivory, the chief biologist at the US Fish & Wildlife Service in Washington, DC told me on our phone call that they can check. The problem is it involves drilling holes through the entire cue taking core sample from the ivory claimed to be pre-ban ivory. It literally involves testing every inlay, ferrule, joint, ring, and butt cap. The verification process would literally destroy the cue because as he stated it, we really don't care about being careful.....just get the job done even if it meant snapping the cue in pieces.
There's zero liability to the US Government for any destruction of personal property as a result of verification of the ivory in any artifact. The bottom-line is don't ship anything into or out of the USA if it has any ivory unless you prepared to lose it. There's a cue right now in Cologne, Germany that I'm trying to buy but the seller hasn't any way of bringing it into the USA unless he transports it as personal property on a visit. It's a very fancy Ed Prewitt cue loaded with ivory and the cue would be confiscated and permanently lost if he tried to ship it. There's a chance it might not het inspected but we're talking a $5k pool cue.......who in their right mind is going to underwrite that risk......no seller ever would and neither will any buyer.
If the pool cue with ivory isn't already in the USA, just forget about it. But domestic sales of pool cues with ivory is totally permissible. But don't worry about penalties if you got caught and were the buyer. The regulation clearly states "it is illegal to sell ivory"......it bans the sale of ivory. The regulation does not say the purchase of ivory or the purchase & sale of ivory and is singularly specific.
As such under the law, it is not illegal to buy a pool cue with ivory; the seller may be screwed but not the buyer. In order for the buyer to be charged with violating the regulation, the regulation needs to be re-written. The ivory ban regulation is not subject to the US Constitution so no one could ever say this regulation violates their constitutional right to buy or sell a pool cue that contains ivory.
Yes, it is illegal to ship any artifact containing ivory, which includes pool cues, into or out of the U.S.A. Mainland or any U.S. territory for that matter.
For what it may be worth, this is what I've learned about the ivory regulation......I do my best to follow this closely because I have a vested interest in it.
In order to ship a pool cue or any artifact that has ivory, it must have a CITES certificate attesting to the fact that the ivory is pre-ban ivory dating prior to 1978. If someone were to claim that the information in their pool cue was pre-ban ivory, the chief biologist at the US Fish & Wildlife Service in Washington, DC told me on our phone call that they can check. The problem is it involves drilling holes through the entire cue taking core sample from the ivory claimed to be pre-ban ivory. It literally involves testing every inlay, ferrule, joint, ring, and butt cap. The verification process would literally destroy the cue because as he stated it, we really don't care about being careful.....just get the job done even if it meant snapping the cue in pieces.
There's zero liability to the US Government for any destruction of personal property as a result of verification of the ivory in any artifact. The bottom-line is don't ship anything into or out of the USA if it has any ivory unless you prepared to lose it. There's a cue right now in Cologne, Germany that I'm trying to buy but the seller hasn't any way of bringing it into the USA unless he transports it as personal property on a visit. It's a very fancy Ed Prewitt cue loaded with ivory and the cue would be confiscated and permanently lost if he tried to ship it. There's a chance it might not het inspected but we're talking a $5k pool cue.......who in their right mind is going to underwrite that risk......no seller ever would and neither will any buyer.
If the pool cue with ivory isn't already in the USA, just forget about it. But domestic sales of pool cues with ivory is totally permissible. But don't worry about penalties if you got caught and were the buyer. The regulation clearly states "it is illegal to sell ivory"......it bans the sale of ivory. The regulation does not say the purchase of ivory or the purchase & sale of ivory and is singularly specific.
As such under the law, it is not illegal to buy a pool cue with ivory; the seller may be screwed but not the buyer. In order for the buyer to be charged with violating the regulation, the regulation needs to be re-written. The ivory ban regulation is not subject to the US Constitution so no one could ever say this regulation violates their constitutional right to buy or sell a pool cue that contains ivory.
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