JBs Thread

A change in method can simply be psychological too. If the benefit comes from the belief instead of the method then the method was just placebo.

That is also true in some cases. Can you give a specific example?

Now let me ask you this. Let's say that CTE/ProOne IS simply a change in method that leads to a tangible and ongoing benefit because of some psychological change rather than an actual physical change.

If so then why isn't that a good thing?

After all the balls don't lie. If I go from making 3 out of 10 banks to making 6 out of 10 then that is a real result. So who cares how I got there?

This is my fundamental problem, you have real people who have no reason to lie telling you that they are playing better. They do videos showing off their skills and it's obvious that they are playing well and can handle their cue ball and make the shots. They do things like pop in tough banks four five in a row, they beat the ghost, they run hundreds, they set up a shot and make it go into all the pockets, etc...why is all this dismissed by some people as if it's fake?
 
Lol, you went from...
to...



I guess you were wrong huh?!

I was giving you some leeway to provide an example? Do you have one?

Here I will give you one since the logic escapes you.

If I tell someone to stand completely still and close their eyes and tap their index finger to their nose for five minutes before each match and they play better then that would possibly be a placebo effect because the physical activity I assigned them has NOTHING to do with the mechanics of playing pool.

Do you have any REAL examples of people being told to CHANGE their mechanics and the resulting improvement being attributed to the placebo effect?

Do we need to go back to calling you Pat Johnson?
 
Let's say that CTE/ProOne IS simply a change in method that leads to a tangible and ongoing benefit because of some psychological change rather than an actual physical change.

If so then why isn't that a good thing?
t would not be a good thing because the system is being marketed as a precise objective point aiming system, with 0 gaps, & no conscious or subconscious adjustments needed to make it wnork. And there are a lot of people in the aiming forum who have not been able to get the system to work. They have been told that their stroke must have been bad to explain why they missed or that they simply are not understanding the system, this would turn out to be untrue if in fact CTE produced results due to a psychological element.

If CTE is simply a change in method that leads to a benefit for some due to psychological reasons then the whole marketing campain would turn out to have been false. The marketing would turn out to have been the equivalent of marketing a sugar pill as the cure for an ailment. It could even be considered a scam depending on if the system knowingly did not work as advertised.
 
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years ago SJD played 1 pkt out west in the 60's 70's (write-up on onepocket.org hall of fame members list-- in 2012 he was elected into the 1 pkt Hall of Fame.... I can not find a post which would be of benefit for an up and coming player or adds any sort of value. :scratchhead::shrug:

GW -- plays at a semi-pro/short stop level currently -- seems to do nothing but support furthering the knowledge of the game on this forum and actively works to grow the game outside of the forum. He threw a zinger (a very good one) at SJD :killingme: -- and SJD spit out his oxygen tubes :barf:-- it was beautiful (IMO) :groucho: --- and deserved a free 1-year gold membership NOT a ban! :clapping:

Gerry ... head on over to onepocket.org .. ... many of the threads there are very educational in both bank pool and 1 - pkt. :dance:




Gerry, we would love to have you over there. I would provide any cover you might need against SJD.:thumbup:

Beard
 
It would not be a good thing because the system is being marketed as a precise objective point aiming system, with 0 gaps, & no conscious or subconscious adjustments needed to make it wnork. And there are a lot of people in the aiming forum who have not been able to get the system to work. They have been told that their stroke must have been bad to explain why they missed or that they simply are not understanding the system, this would turn out to be untrue if in fact CTE produced results due to a psychological element.

If CTE is simply a change in method that leads to a benefit for some due to psychological reasons then the whole marketing campain would turn out to have been false. The marketing would turn out to have been the equivalent of marketing a sugar pill as the cure for an ailment. It could even be considered a scam depending on if the system knowingly did not work as advertised.

I RESENT YOUR IMPLICATION THAT WHAT I TEACH IS A POSSIBLE SCAM.
IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO me ABOUT SCAMMING THEN SAY IT TO MY FACE.
I KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND THE MODERATORS DO AS WELL.

Stan Shuffett
 
I RESENT YOUR IMPLICATION THAT WHAT I TEACH IS A POSSIBLE SCAM.
IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO me ABOUT SCAMMING THEN SAY IT TO MY FACE.
I KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND THE MODERATORS DO AS WELL.

Stan Shuffett

Relax. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. As someone else mentioned, this type of post is more likely to alienate people than entice them.

Anyway, can we stop talking about aiming and get back to how bad Barton is at pool? :smile:
 
A genuinely great player is highly respected for his accomplishments. Great players who participate here are always welcome until they become insulting and demeaning. That applies everywhere in life.

Imagine the loss if Dick had spent his time sharing stories from his time, sharing insight from the trenches of high level combat...then people would be mourning his absence more.

But that is relative to the audience, surely? Although I find tales of One-Eyed Stumpy Joe going 10 rounds in 1952 with Ole Shorty Corn Dog adorably, it's appeal is limited.

I think the Billiard and Pool History in the U.S.Forum should be used more frequently for dreamy reminiscing, leaving the Main forum to discuss pool strategy and higher level play.

Nostalgia is great - in moderation.
 
Relax. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. As someone else mentioned, this type of post is more likely to alienate people than entice them.

Anyway, can we stop talking about aiming and get back to how bad Barton is at pool? :smile:

Except when the opinion is making false and damaging statements about a person or their work.

That's defamation, and could be brought to civil court if Stan chose to do so. He might not win, but the option is there for him if he so wishes to try.
 
Well it may easily be dismissed because there is no easy way to prove that they are doing what they say they are doing. If I ran a hundred and attributed it to thinking about kittens while I was playing there would be no way to prove or disprove that I was doing that, nor that doing so would be helpful to somebody else, or even to me. Any and all "evidence" would be anectdotal in nature, unless there was some way to read my mind.

It is easy to see that someone who is sceptical can make the same objections to aiming systems.
The point you are making about how you get your result is not a good one. How you "get there" does matter. Homeopathy for instance, has no scientifically proven mechanism for what it claims to do, and most of the claims are in direct contradiction with all medical science. In fact in the most diluted solutions it can be proven that you do not even get a single molecule of the substance they claim that you are ingesting. It is a giant hoax, yet it is a billion dollar industry. Would you let these people get away with the claim that some people do get better, therefore their theories are valid as long as they pump out anectdotal evidence, without any scientific data to back it up nor any plausible mechanism? You do realize that to be approved and deemed the best, a new medication not only has to outperform a placebo by a statistically significant margin (that is the bare minimum), but also outperform other medications that are available?

I am not saying that aiming systems are hoaxes, just making a point about your reasoning.[/SIZE]

Systems of all kinds can be helpful to learn billiards, IMHO, because they tend to organize your experiences into a coherent whole instead of individual observations, which facilitates learning. I did try CTE and bought Mr. Shuffets first DVD. For me it was not the answer, that may not be due to the system. Maybe my execution was just not good enough or maybe I was using it wrong, who knows? It is good that people sometimes object to some of the claims being made, so that other people that are new to systems do not get unrealistic expectations that will inevitably bee disappointed.

I don't want to start a new debate on CTE here, which will only result in the thread being moved, just trying to show you that your reasoning can be challenged by someone with a sceptical mindset. Not because they are stupid or pigheaded, but because they are trained in science and logic or just naturally sceptical , and therefore are inclined to raise the objections which I showed you. Not everyone who disagree with you have an evil or petty agenda, but may simply disagree on this one point you are trying to make. Being "evangelical" about your results will likely alienate these people, rather than persuade them.

There are many things that can raise ones play it can be as simple as a grip change ,,
99.9 % of pool players play pool with out anyone giving them instruction
In golf that would be ludicrous ,to expect to compete with no instruction ,one swing flaw could send your game straight downward straight into the mini tours
trying to self correct can make it even worse
IMHO any good instructer could easily spot flaws in fact it just happened to me, I took a lesson with Scott Lee he noticed my shoulder drops a little my eye pattern was random , ,sometimes I'm way to quick in transition along with couple minor things,
Correcting will lead to more pocketed balls and consistent play

Another example was a trip to a sports shrink , he gave some breathing exercises used with my eye focusing and some other routines that kept my mind to the task at hand
The results were immediat , walked out with 3 pl and still live in a strong weekly tourney that I never cash in and I beat 2 players I had never beaten.
In fact I would go as far to say that did more for me than anything I ever did and more than anything could ever do in one sitting

CTE might help some but most good players don't have a aiming problem ,, see spot , see spot run ,, it's really not that hard ,, the most important part is strong fundementals
That will put you in line and keep your stroke straight and repeatable


1
 
Um, what is anecdotal about the demonstrations Stan and others have put on video?

Those are physical feats which cannot be easily faked.

You guys want to act like the James Randi of pool but you won't accept the proof you asked for.

CTE Pro One is the most precise method of aiming I know of. I have found zero gaps. None.

There are a few shots for which there is no CTE solution which then require a deliberate conscious adjustment. Stan demonstrates this.

We are not talking sugar pills we are talking tools. This is using objects to align the body to get a physical immediate result.

The result being a pocketed ball. Results which are easily duplicated on any pool table by any one who spent the time to master the tool.



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JB your just not going to be able to convince some people. It's like talking about religion. Some times you have to agree to disagree. Seems no matter what the subject is there are always two sides. Kinda like Democrats and Republicans or expert witnesses for the prosecution and defense. Two totally different stances on any given subject. Seems so many feel they can change someone's opinion. Some times you can but not once the two sides already have animosity towards one another before the conversation even started. It's pretty pointless.

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Isnt it interesting that shots being asked to be reproduced are shots that have been practiced?

Oh we're any of those shots combos or caroms? Did any of those require theCB to stop at a certain position like in a real game? Trick shots, nothing more.

Anyone can do trick shots if they so desire to practice them. Remember trick shots are not in the heat battle.

I can set up a 3 rail bank on a table and garrantee it can not be made on the first try. None of this try, miss and try again. Nope first time try only.

Does not matter if I can, only if the system user can.

Anyone that thinks they walk up to any table, that they never played on therefore not knowing how the table plays and they can make any shoot using CTE is talking out their ass. This just shows how inexperience they are. The ability to adjust to a table is feel and no system will give you that.

Example.....when Cal billiards closed, the players started coming to Edgies. The difference in tabes and pockets was night and day. It been fun watching the good shooters from Cal struggle on these tables. It been funny. They are having to adjust. From some it's been a challenge cause of accurancy needed to hit the pocket just right.

I can go on those same tables and not have a issue. Why....cause I know the tables, I know how the pockets play. I know which tables roll which way. And so on.

I'm at Edgies if anyone ever wants to see how effective ghost ball can be in actual games. Offer been out there for awhile. No money. Anyone can play and lose money. But to play for bragging right only. For honor, for being the better shooter. Well, this just scares people to much.

Since they are just trick shots to you, you should have no problem posting a video showing you doing them. What? Not going to bother posting a video? Not worth your time to practice them? Just another excuse to get out of doing something that you can't do with your aiming system no matter how much you practice it.

If you really knew what you think you know, then you would also know that all you gave above is some cheap, uniformed excuses for not doing it. Different tables, as long as they are regulation, doesn't mean a thing when it comes to aiming. Neither does the pocket cut. The center of the pocket doesn't change. Bad rails can have an effect on banking, but this is a no-brainer as they have an effect no matter what way you aim.
 
I RESENT YOUR IMPLICATION THAT WHAT I TEACH IS A POSSIBLE SCAM.
IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO me ABOUT SCAMMING THEN SAY IT TO MY FACE.
I KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND THE MODERATORS DO AS WELL.

Stan Shuffett

Why are the only words not capitalized "me" and your signature?
Why didn't you write "I" in lower case too so there would be some kind of theme going on?




P.S. I meant every word I said.
 
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It depends on whether you believe systems make players great or not. I've not seen a single shred of evidence to suggest a system makes a blind bit of difference to a great player. Great players are great players, system or not.

System = shill or placebo.

Find me a single English pool or snooker player that believes they became a great player as a direct result of a system and I'll listen.

You won't.

IF THEY ARE SO GOOD, WHY ARE YOU SO BAD?
IF THEY ARE SO GOOD, WHY ARE YOU SO BAD?
IF THEY ARE SO GOOD, WHY ARE YOU SO BAD?

Please take time to consider this question carefully, as there is a glaring schism in your thinking on this one.

This post only proves that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
 
You're British, presumably. Do you feel this forum has helped you play better pool in any way? If I'd have played pool rather than lounging about, wasting time on here, I'd be a far better player than I am now. No doubt SJD feels the same. No foul, there's just a limit to what a forum like this can achieve. What CAN he teach us, anyway? People need to quantify what they want or need.

This forum is for entertainment purposes only IMO. It's a zero-sum game. You might win in one respect but lose in another. Again, no foul, it's just how it is.

I GREATLY object to those who use this place to sell dreams to people who don't know any better. Sell them products but do not sell them the idea they will become better players simply by ingratiating themselves to pros. No one has ever become a great player through the written word.

Sounds like you fit right in with "English". You don't have enough common sense to actually learn anything on here. Despite the great wealth of information on here. For you to say that there is nothing to learn here, only shows just how ignorant about the game you really are. And, it goes to show that you are only here to push peoples buttons for your own entertainment. It's actually sad that people like you, that say there is nothing to be gained by the written word, are allowed to be here, while those that actually do help people get banned.
 
JB your just not going to be able to convince some people. It's like talking about religion. Some times you have to agree to disagree. Seems no matter what the subject is there are always two sides. Kinda like Democrats and Republicans or expert witnesses for the prosecution and defense. Two totally different stances on any given subject. Seems so many feel they can change someone's opinion. Some times you can but not once the two sides already have animosity towards one another before the conversation even started. It's pretty pointless.

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I don't write for the benefit of people like Satori(Pat Johnson). He gets down and fidget aims so he will never accept that there is a better way which is precise and accurate.

I write for the benefit of the readers who might be interested in trying something that I feel could help their game. I was given this gift by Hal Houle and told to pay it forward if I found it helpful to my game.

I have found it helpful and this is my way of paying it forward.
 
I don't write for the benefit of people like Satori(Pat Johnson). He gets down and fidget aims so he will never accept that there is a better way which is precise and accurate.

I write for the benefit of the readers who might be interested in trying something that I feel could help their game. I was given this gift by Hal Houle and told to pay it forward if I found it helpful to my game.

I have found it helpful and this is my way of paying it forward.

There is no fidgeting in the way I aim. Here is a thread from a while back.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=327748
 
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