Jerry Forsyth's Essay on 9 and 10 ball

softshot said:
You Nailed it dude. You cannot have a "WORLD POOL CHAMPION" that doesn't call his shots.

Calling your shot for a pro might only come into play once every 1000 racks, but one slop is too many, you can't claim to be the best in the world if your slopping in balls to win.

You just can't.
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You are right about slop only coming into play once in a while amongst the pros. However, I don't completely agree that you cannot have a "World Champion" that doesn't call his shots. I don't think it would really matter in the professional ranks. I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right? I have also seen plenty of times professional 3-cushion players have gotten lucky or slopped a point- of course, they always apologize. I find that the soft break and the ability to make the same ball everytime is much more of a problem in 9-ball, then are slop shots among the pros.
 
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rossaroni said:
You are right about slop only coming into play once in a while amongst the pros. However, I don't completely agree that you cannot have a "World Champion" that doesn't call his shots. I don't think it would really matter in the professional ranks. I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right? I have also seen plenty of times professional 3-cushion players have gotten lucky or slopped a point- of course, they always apologize. I find that the soft break and the ability to make the same ball everytime is much more of a problem in 9-ball, then are slop shots among the pros.
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when your trying to sell a game to "bar bangers" who call every kiss, every carom, and every rail, it does matter.

As far as the soft break.. it was only a matter of time , I am surprised it took this long.

You are right the soft break turned 9-ball into a position drill for the pro's, but if you have to move the game up a notch to make the pro's compete. Then why don't you add the rule that the mass audience simply expects out of a professional pool player?
 
rossaroni said:
I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right?
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4 rails?? you don't play much straight pool do ya? ;-)
 
I enjoyed the article, and IMHO, the luck game of 9-ball today seems to be flawed because of soft breaks and rack riggers. Maybe it is 9-ball's dirty little secret, but there are quite a few players who rig racks.

I have mixed feelings about the break. You can't rig a break. However, one can utilize breaking strategies, depending on the equipment and the rack.

To me, rigging the rack is like playing poker with a marked deck of cards. I liken it to cheating. Yet, the dirty little secret of the secret society of rack riggers is alive and well. I witnessed two notorious rack riggers at a pro event one time, and there was more time spent during the match arguing about the rack than there was actual shooting balls in pockets. Both players were rack riggers.

I actually had one tournament director say to me that if the rack is rigged, it is up to the breaking player to challenge the rigged rack. Otherwise, the rigged racks are acceptable. I was shocked.

The only way to overcome this problem of rigged racks in 9-ball is to have neutral rackers for all games. Unfortunately, in these economically challenged times, most tournaments cannot afford to have neutral rackers for each match. Usually, they are reserved for TV tables.

10-ball is the obvious replacement of 9-ball, as I think it will eliminate the rack rigging strategies, unless, of course, they can figure out a way to rig the 10-ball racks. Then we're faced with the same problem.

Also, pocket billiards consists of so many different games, i.e., rotation ball of 3-ball through 15-ball, one-pocket, banks, 14.1, et cetera. Whereas, other sports, like football and baseball have one game and one set of rules. It is easier to understand one game and one set of rules for mainstream America.

Allen Hopkins, et al., continues to come up with innovative ways to showcase pool on TV with events like the Skins Billiards Championship and Texas Hold'em Billiard Championship. Soon there will be a million-dollar tournament which, hopefully, will receive mention on American TV. Until then, pool has to compete with PGA, MLB, NFL, NBA, and tennis.

Neutral rackers is the way to go, and to accompany that, three balls must pass the side packet after breaking in order for it to be a legal break. These two changes would make a difference, whether the game is 9-ball or 10-ball. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
softshot said:
4 rails?? you don't play much straight pool do ya? ;-)
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I have played a little. I think my high run was 527, but just quit cause it was getting boring. Why would you ask this?
 
rossaroni said:
..... I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) .....
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Seems to me that the essential difference between slop shot making of balls and the other pieces of luck you describe is that there is a simple and practical option/method of easily eliminating almost all of the slop shot element of luck via the call shot rules, whereas there is no simple and practical option/method of eliminating the 'lucky safes'.
 
rossaroni said:
I have played a little. I think my high run was 527, but just quit cause it was getting boring. Why would you ask this?
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I mean no disrespect,

BUT 14.1 is all about small precision cue ball movements, (thats how you pick apart the cluster) anyone who misses any straight pool shot to the point of a 4 rail luck rebound, is a banger and a bad one at that.

considering you have nearly doubled the world record you would know much more about that than me ;)
 
softshot said:
I mean no disrespect,

BUT 14.1 is all about small precision cue ball movements, (thats how you pick apart the cluster) anyone who misses any straight pool shot to the point of a 4 rail luck rebound, is a banger and a bad one at that.

considering you have nearly doubled the world record you would know much more about that than me ;)
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I don't think I doubled it, but someone once mentioned that I may have broken it by a ball. I was not really saying that 4 railers are common in straight pool, but it is possible to "slop" a ball in playing 14.1. I hardly ever do it more then 5-6 times a match and would not consider myself a banger.
 
memikey said:
Seems to me that the essential difference between slop shot making of balls and the other pieces of luck you describe is that there is a simple and practical option/method of easily eliminating almost all of the slop shot element of luck via the call shot rules, whereas there is no simple and practical option/method of eliminating the 'lucky safes'.
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I agree with you. I was just trying to make a point that making pros play call shot, really would not matter too much. Howerev, you are right about being able to eliminating slop shots, to a certain extent.
 
rossaroni said:
I don't think I doubled it, but someone once mentioned that I may have broken it by a ball. I was not really saying that 4 railers are common in straight pool, but it is possible to "slop" a ball in playing 14.1. I hardly ever do it more then 5-6 times a match and would not consider myself a banger.
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Fair enough.. considering your AV and where I live there are good odds I either know you or have played you. LOL

In 9-ball you can slop any number of ways as long as you hit the lowest ball first, and something falls its a good shot. including bumping the 9 in for a WIN

for anyone playing anything other than 9-ball you must call ball and pocket. if the 9-ball pro slops 1:1000 the 14.1 player slops 1;1,000,000,000 and calls it good... big difference.
 
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softshot said:
Fair enough.. considering your AV and where I live there are good odds I either know you or have played you. LOL

In 9-ball you can slop any number of ways as long as you hit the lowest ball first, and something falls its a good shot.

for anyone playing anything other than 9-ball you must call ball and pocket. if the 9-ball pro slops 1:1000 the 14.1 player slops 1;1,000,000,000 and calls it good... big difference.
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You probably do know me or have heard about how bad I play!
I think you can also slop balls in one-pocket. Slop also counts in APA. Oh, and in 3-ball!
 
rossaroni said:
Yea, but you can slop in 1 ball (the 8) and lose!
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but in that case you don't get to call yourself WORLD CHAMPION!!!! your just the poor bastard who missed.
 
memikey said:
The IPT chose 8 Ball for one of the biggest pool enterpises ever attempted. I'm not so sure they got that part wrong:)

Setting aside the personalities involved does anyone think that an IPT type concept would be any more likely to succeed were it to be 9 ball or 10 ball instead of 8 ball?

What do AZB'ers think would be the likely consequences for the pool industry if 8 ball were to be promoted to being the most prevalent and dominant pro tour game of choice and to being the most important of the world championships?

Interesting essay Jerry, thanks.
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I like 8-ball just because I like it LOL

But to play it with skill you have to play it on a small table where multiple clusters and tight position come into play. The game gets easier as the table gets bigger.

The smaller the table the more it reminds me of 14.1
 
softshot said:
I like 8-ball just because I like it LOL

But to play it with skill you have to play it on a small table where multiple clusters and tight position come into play. The game gets easier as the table gets bigger.
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I agree. I grew up on 8-ball when I started playing. I think 8-ball was at one time more popular for social shooters, like myself, because many times it used to be played in places with coin-operated bar tables.

Of course, you could use the remaining balls when applicable in 9-ball on a coin-operated bar table, but most places, including the leagues, played 8-ball.

JAM
 
Great read, Jerry

Great read, well written and I totally agree, Jerry.

Interesting thing happened the other day, Jerry. I called Jay, we talked for at least 5 mins before he snapped and said, "Damn Bill, I thought you were Jerry Forsyth."

Compliment? Back hand slap? I don't know but we must sound alike on the phone, LOL.
 
So what's going to happen when 10ball gets "too easy"? 15 ball? Maybe 26 ball? That would be crazy!

I thank rather than up the ball count, maybe just a few tweeks to the rules would slow some players down on the professional level. Maybe take away pushing out. Or everyone breaks from the box. Or we could make everyone play one one of these
HEF3-1.jpg
 
Great article Jerry, you only kept me waiting 11 yrs!

Forget about comparing 14.1 to 10 ball for a minute and lets just focus on making part of the sport just a little better. By switching to 10 ball at least for the pros or higher level run out players you 1st off eliminate sooooo many arguments (we?re talking 90% of all current arguments) and the majority of these arguments start off with the rack and then they?ll carry over to that match and the rest of the tournament. When 2 run out players of somewhat equal skill compete in 9 ball the single most important factor will be the rack, one person making the corner ball and one person not. At least with 10 ball especially the way the FL tour does it you immediately cut down on arguments of the rack and arguments that stem from the rack. And it is not the same game after the break, there is much more strategy as far as safety play, kicking and position play, something that in the long run will make our players better all around players not just break and cosmo players. Most games evolve and most pro levels play by slightly higher standards, we should to.

SJM I?m not picking on you but a simple point for all involved and I don?t know if I?ve ever disagreed with sjm and I?m not sure if I am here simple because you said there?s no proof and that doesn?t mean you totally disagree but to put you in a bad spot and it?s only bad because I?m forcing you to back me playing Efren a race to 7, 9, 11 or 15. Which game would you prefer we play, 9 ball or 10 ball?

I know, none right. Okay, okay I?m getting enough games on the wire to make it somewhat fair just so you can sweat your $$$.

This is coming from a guy that sells Racking Secrets, a DVD which would be a lot less valuable if there were no 9 ball.
 
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