Jerry Forsyth's Essay on 9 and 10 ball

supergreenman said:
Watching rotation is like getting your teeth pulled slowly.

Just my opinion.
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I bought the DVD on Ebay of Efren playing Bustamante in rotation. After watching it rotation became the game I practice above all others. It was anything but boring. If you have a chance you should pick it up, it will blow your mind.
 
I want to start off by saying it's very well-written however, this isn't news. Sardo & Deuel have both been around for YEARS now and it's Sardo who introduced "consistent racks" and Deuel who became famous for exploiting them and guess what? 9-ball is still here!

Seriously, I would love to see some changes in pool. I mean, I think we focus WAY to much on rotation altogether and not enough on the other games. Regional tours should have at least a few 8-ball and straight pool tournaments and I honestly think you'd be pleasantly surprised to see who would emerge to show up and watch/play for such events. The APA is predominantly 8-ball and I can't imagine very many APA 6s or 7s passing up a chance to take on the pros if they didn't need to travel far.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I can't imagine very many APA 6s or 7s passing up a chance to take on the pros if they didn't need to travel far.
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Does it cost more than $8 per session, then I can. I mean most APA players in our league wouldn't bet water is wet, much less donate $25 - 50 to play in a decent tournament.
 
I did not like the essay, nor do I think one person should use such an influential position to try and forward his opinion, and claim 9 ball as "dead". I am sure fault can be found in amy game, however, switching to a harder game will only make the situation for pool worse. Why is it that pool needs these generational changes? My father's generation played 14.1, we play 9 ball. Is it 10 ball for the next generation? I see some value in his arguments, yet I never see ANYONE running out more than a few games in a row, even with the sardo, and I watch a lotl of pool. Besides, with alternating break, it really does not matter. Are we going to argue that it makes the game more boring to watch? People come to see home runs and 300 foot drives. A run out is the same type of thing in pool.

Pool does not need a harder game to become the standard. Many people shy away from pool as it is because of the difficulty in becoming proficient at it. Why create a greater separation between the pros and wannabe bangers? Maybe some changes to 9 ball should be made, such as no slop, but to change the entire game is a bit hasty.

This should have been posted in the forum for discussion, not as a main page statement!
 
iba7467 said:
Does it cost more than $8 per session, then I can. I mean most APA players in our league wouldn't bet water is wet, much less donate $25 - 50 to play in a decent tournament.
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I actually think APA integration is critical if professional pool is ever planning on being remotely successful.
 
as a tournament game, 9 ball is dead????

don't get me wrong, i agree with pretty much everything the article said, i think it's a very well thought out, nice piece. but don't start off with such a ludicrous statement. 9 ball is the main game in almost every tournament i go to. how is it dead?? not only is it not dead, i would venture to guess it's gonna be around a long time to come.
 
To let the 9-Ball rack/structure/gamblers game/ created out of the hustle days of the past depression generation 'be gone' is a good thing/about time and by doing so, allot more good will come of it. If someone leaves the wing ball loose on you, by accident or on purpose (that's what we think anyway) the relationship of those two players has been undermined and so is the event that is being held. The structure of a TRIANGLE is intact and removes the hustle that the 9-Ball injects into the sport. Long live 10 Ball and the hard break. Thank you AZ very much for you POST
 
10 Ball? more than likely....

But, I would think that the game would be improved quicker with "ALL Ball Fouls" like the rest of the world.

The World Standard Rules don't even include a section covering 'non-refereed or Cue Ball fouls only" Why? because there are referees available for all matches.

The future of professional pocket billiards depends on how they are going to approach these 'changes'. The current top pros cannot make a decent living by just playing in 6-10 mid to large tournaments a year. The formats of these tournaments needs to change also.

9 Ball is just part of the problem. The playing field is not consistent I'm not talking about the table, balls or cloth, I'm talking about the 'double elimination' random draws.

The Women Pros are testing their formats to keep the top players wining by seeding their tournaments and also changing the format of the tournaments.
Double elimination random draws only favor the lucky.

I like these changes for helping encourage the growth of professional pool.

1. 10 Ball
2. All Ball Fouls
3. Seeding the top ranked players
4. Single Elimination with 2nd tournament for losers of the 1st and 2nd rounds.
5. Round Robin during the last 16 players with two groups of 8.

Or, 9 Ball with the old 'roll out' rules.
Or, organized qualifier tournaments that will only provide 16 player spots TOTAL.

More City vrs City challenge tournaments using different games (14.1, 1Pkt, 10Ball and 8 Ball) Pool Rooms owners should love this idea. Regional tournaments bring out the 'loyalists' in their customer base and can also be a big crowd pleaser.

Standardized RULES that all leagues and tournaments use so everyone will be on the 'same page' when it come to player expectations when entering a tournament.

The only reason that the BCA adopted the World Standard Pool Associations rules was because of the interest at the time that there was going to be a chance of an Olympic spot for Pocket Billiards.

Changing the game from 9 ball to 10 ball is a start, but there has to be more and it had better come quick and with the support of a lot of players and promoters or not only is 9 Ball dead... but so is the opportunity for any of the new players to see any kind of a future in this game.
 
There's nothing original in Jerry's essay. He doesn't make a single argument or point that hasn't been made on this forum often.

As a fan and as a player, I'm very cool with both 9-ball and 10-ball. Still, any suggestion that the hard break doesn't entail a huge amount of luck is unreasonable.

For pro pool to have any chance of success, it has to mean something to the average league or bar player. One thing that the IPT had right was the choice of 8-ball. The fact that countless errors were made in the management of the IPT in no way proves that the choice of 8-ball was in error. Far fewer, but some, recreational players play 9-ball, so this is the second choice if the pros have any chance of connecting with the amateur players. Almost no amateurs play 10-ball, so if the pros want to completely disenfrancise the fans, this is the perfect choice. 10-ball also has a slower pace than both 8-ball and 9-ball.

8-ball and 9-ball both have a long history of having the cream rise to the top in the biggest events. The "too much luck," "too much slop" and "races too short" arguments are belabored here on the forum, but the fact remains that the most elite are the ones who've been winning the biggest titles for decades.

I say "Who cares what the pro players want?" The further pro pool drifts from the games played by the league and bar players, the less the fans will care about the pro game, a salient point as we've been reading that the pros won't be at the Riviera this year, which menas that some 10,000 amatuers who normally see them won't see them this year.

The best argument I've read is that "if you want to make the break less important in the pro game, tighten the pockets." The runouts are too easy, and that's the problem with the pro game. Supertight equipment would put the emphasis back on offensive execution, defensive execution and strategic play. Tighten the pockets to the point that only the most elite will run out with regularity and you'll weed out the best without switching to a game that would disenfranchise the average fan.

It would be just fine with me if I were to read a "10-ball is dead" article at some point.
 
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So ten ball is the game of the future eh. I think ten ball is advantageous for the big breakers who can crush the break shot and have a better chance of fluking a ball randomly into a pocket (boy that takes skill).

If nine ball is considered a break contest at least it is a fair one, where if both players take the time to master the required skills they both have a chance to win. I don't know how many matches I have seen where one player is consistently pocketing a ball on the break ( eight nine or ten ball) and the other one comes up dry on their turns making for some very lopsided matches.

If someone like Efren who is considered to have a weak break runs up against someone like Hillbilly or Shane, your telling me that Efren's over all ability will over come the fact that these guys can run four or five racks on him and he can't fire back with more than one or two racks, Puuulease. Efren will get run over and might never win another tourny.

You can have all the skill in the world but if you can't fluke a ball on the power break you can't win. Wouldn't it be something to see Efren resort to safety breaking in ten ball to negate someone elses power break advantage and put more stratagy into the game, OH! how foul the power break purists would cry then, but if it was Efren it would be ok, heaven forbid Corey try this EEK!


Bern
 
Alternate breaks! But 9 Ball at the pro level still comes down to who makes a ball on the break.
 
Matchroom decided, based on recent WPC imo, to change the breaking rules for coming Mosconi Cup. Check details in "Mosconi Cup Alert" thread.
 
Vahmurka said:
Matchroom decided, based on recent WPC imo, to change the breaking rules for coming Mosconi Cup. Check details in "Mosconi Cup Alert" thread.
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Again I don't like this either, if you have to do that to the game, change the game. They pros figured something out that I think is actually pretty special, but now that they have, move on.
 
sjm said:
The best argument I've read is that "if you want to make the break less important in the pro game, tighten the pockets." The runouts are too easy, and that's the problem with the pro game. Supertight equipment would put the emphasis back on offensive execution, defensive execution and strategic play. Tighten the pockets to the point that only the most elite will run out with regularity and you'll weed out the best without switching to a game that would disenfranchise the average fan.
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Wow, SJM I never thought of this idea before. Very very clever! I like it. Anything that would put the cream of the crop in the winner's circle would be great. It'd be a nice change to the mickey mouse run outs we saw at the World Championships. Excellent idea!
 
GG11 said:
Wow, SJM I never thought of this idea before. Very very clever! I like it. Anything that would put the cream of the crop in the winner's circle would be great. It'd be a nice change to the mickey mouse run outs we saw at the World Championships. Excellent idea!
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wow sarcasm in a women is sexy, you comming to the west coast anytime soon??? lol, jk, sort of....
 
im curious why people don't want players to use a soft break? it's a shot like any other shot (the break i mean). if a player wants to use his discretion and perhaps have a much lesser chance of scratching on the break by hitting them soft, then he should definitely be able to do that. that was just the one thing i read that i strongly disagree with..... you can't tell a guy how hard to break them!
 
enzo said:
im curious why people don't want players to use a soft break? it's a shot like any other shot (the break i mean). if a player wants to use his discretion and perhaps have a much lesser chance of scratching on the break by hitting them soft, then he should definitely be able to do that. that was just the one thing i read that i strongly disagree with..... you can't tell a guy how hard to break them!
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It's because nine ball is traditionally played with a hard break and no ball is particularly likely to go in. That's because in the past, the rack wasn't tight. I think the change to shoot from the break box and require 3 balls above the head string or pocketed will only be effective for a short time until the players solve those requirements as well.
 
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