John Brumback visits Betmore's Basement

[JoeyA]

Joey,
Well, since you insist, I'm going to give up 3 of the secrets that I learned this week that were quite a pleasant surprise (and will not help you a bit JA, you are just going to have to visit the Basement if you want it all).

#1 - It is NOT all about "feel". There are extremely detailed scientific principles involved in John's method. I found it a bit like straight pool - you can readily learn the "principles", but knowing how and when to apply them is the trick.

On many shots you will need to violate certain basic principles and follow a different one. Very complex, but manageable so far for me (I suspect I have much more to learn). If it was all feel then time is all anyone would need; there are definitely shortcuts to proficiency in banks. Many bank players know how to do it, but can't explain exactly why it works; or have gaps in their systems. No gaps were evident in John's methods.

#2 - "Feel" is really important. - I am quite certain that following John's advice will rapidly improve any bank player who follows it. The reason is that your "feel" is based on how you have struck the banks in the past; and comparing to the results achieved in the past. Once you use John's principles of maximizing success, and strike your banks the proper, highest yield way; your "feel" will improve by leaps and bounds. Consistency in striking banks the proper way will enable the student to achieve a higher level of success much more quickly than trying to "figure it out on their own."

#3 - It is NOT simple. - All students of the game understand the basic principles and physics involved with banking; and understand that under real life conditions "angle in = angle out" is not really the way it works. All students also understand the different ways that speed, English, distance from the rail, humidity, and table conditions affect these angles. Knowing how to incorporate these variables into your decisions is complex. Knowing how to vary your technique depending on the score of a game, or the type of game, or on the particular features of your opponent's game is also complex.

It is NOT simple enough to really get any useful information in a medium such as this. As admirable as Freddy's attempts at getting it onto paper are; it just is too difficult to convey in print. I am quite hopeful that John will get some video's out similar to John Schmidt's - that is a great way to get the message (but still not ideal). Until you can get him on the table and show you the stuff, you won't be sure you've "gotten it."

I was quite amazed at the difference even a half inch can make - you look at tapes and think you know where the balls are; but if you move them even a millimeter or two the results can be profoundly different. We spent significant amounts of time positioning and marking the balls perfectly to find the very limits of what is possible with "turning" banks - I don't think a book could ever convey the exactitude of John's play, nor the level of precision required to execute it - his level of precision is unbelieveable.

You are a good liaison man Mr. Betmore. :bow-down::bow-down:

You've communicated some VERY valuable information without giving too much away, enabling the professional players to still be able to earn a day's pay for teaching their craft, yet you satisfy, albeit only temporarily, the weeping and wailing of those who are so jealous of your time with THE BEST BANK POOL PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

Thank you for sharing these well articulated "SECRETS".

JoeyA (should have worked for the CIA when it comes to getting secrets out of people) :wink2:

 

[Williebetmore]

You are a good liaison man Mr. Betmore. :bow-down::bow-down:

You've communicated some VERY valuable information without giving too much away, enabling the professional players to still be able to earn a day's pay for teaching their craft, yet you satisfy, albeit only temporarily, the weeping and wailing of those who are so jealous of your time with THE BEST BANK POOL PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

Thank you for sharing these well articulated "SECRETS".

JoeyA (should have worked for the CIA when it comes to getting secrets out of people) :wink2:

JA,
Thank you for your keeping your tongue firmly in-cheek. The reason I don't try to "pass on" the information I receive is the same reason that medical advice in newspaper and television is always wrong. The subject matter just isn't that simple - by passing it on you falsely reassure half the people with that disease, and falsely alarm the other half - even if nothing in the article is really totally wrong. I try to pass on the general sense of the lesson so that members can decide if they would like to partake. Hell, I probably would totally screw up any examples I tried to give (like "Hey Joey, always shut your eyes and fart before shooting that cross side bank").

I am in no way trying to protect anyone's "secrets." Anything I know about pool, I will share with anyone (though once I was asked to swear not to reveal a specific technique...I felt bad about that one until relieved of the obligation). The sport will never become great without sharing of information.

I will definitely refer you to Mark Wilson's upcoming book on achieving proficiency at pool; it will have ALL the "secrets" you need to become a champion...but you may not like them (hard work is often mentioned). I've seen you play, so I know that you know all about the hard work part. The information is no good without the work. A guy like you would be a force with some Brumback lessons - but he needs to "lay hands" on you to maximize the benefit. JMO.

P.S. - Oh, and another thing; if you would ever make the trip to Betmore's Basement for one of these get togethers you wouldn't have to beg for scraps.

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Thanks for the posts Sir!!!

Always love the stories from your basement, it's enjoyable read

 

[elvicash]

Okay Joey A I will give out a little more info from the tome of knowledge shared by Mr Brumback

Hit the cue ball closer to center most of the time. sometimes you need alot of action on the CB requiring big english but most shots can be made close to the center.

Pay attention to elevation, sometime it is good usually it is detrimental.

Stroke speed is important, medium stroke speed to a bank player is a good table length or more harder than medium speed shot is to a 14.1 player.

Watch the cue ball after contact to get feedback, if it is still spinning vertically (left or right) you did not transfer as much as you can, to transfer more to the object ball you actually need to use less left or right english. When you transfer the most english the CB will be dead after hitting the object ball.

Pay attention to what your playing conditions are cloth, ball cleanliness, humidtiy etc. All of these have a strong effect on banking balls. As straight pool players WBM and I like really clean equipment and that can actually impede some effects you want when banking.

Last of all there are ways to open the pockets and make them play larger, to get that working for you &^%ff;jkfg;k dkfsdsl aw23%$s &^%$ and then you ^%GREklksd ereero and the balls just turn right into the pocket. If you have problems understanding that just call John Brumback he will tell you exactly how to do it.

 

[u12armresl]

I bet John does give good lessons, he has the lets help make this area right type approach and is charismatic.

So Willie, with your new found one pocket knowledge, you ready to play some sets?

 

[JoeyA]

Okay Joey A I will give out a little more info from the tome of knowledge shared by Mr Brumback

Hit the cue ball closer to center most of the time. sometimes you need alot of action on the CB requiring big english but most shots can be made close to the center.

Pay attention to elevation, sometime it is good usually it is detrimental.

Stroke speed is important, medium stroke speed to a bank player is a good table length or more harder than medium speed shot is to a 14.1 player.

Watch the cue ball after contact to get feedback, if it is still spinning vertically (left or right) you did not transfer as much as you can, to transfer more to the object ball you actually need to use less left or right english. When you transfer the most english the CB will be dead after hitting the object ball.

Pay attention to what your playing conditions are cloth, ball cleanliness, humidtiy etc. All of these have a strong effect on banking balls. As straight pool players WBM and I like really clean equipment and that can actually impede some effects you want when banking.

Last of all there are ways to open the pockets and make them play larger, to get that working for you &^%ff;jkfg;k dkfsdsl aw23%$s &^%$ and then you ^%GREklksd ereero and the balls just turn right into the pocket. If you have problems understanding that just call John Brumback he will tell you exactly how to do it.

OUTSTANDING.

You shared some very nice NUGGETS. I took a one hour lesson with John last year and he covered the last paragraph. You need Google to translate and read in between the lines when Williebetmore is giving up the secrets. :grin-square:

Thanks Elvicash!

 

[Maxx]

Okay Joey A I will give out a little more info from the tome of knowledge shared by Mr Brumback

Hit the cue ball closer to center most of the time. sometimes you need alot of action on the CB requiring big english but most shots can be made close to the center.

Pay attention to elevation, sometime it is good usually it is detrimental.

Stroke speed is important, medium stroke speed to a bank player is a good table length or more harder than medium speed shot is to a 14.1 player.

Watch the cue ball after contact to get feedback, if it is still spinning vertically (left or right) you did not transfer as much as you can, to transfer more to the object ball you actually need to use less left or right english. When you transfer the most english the CB will be dead after hitting the object ball.

Pay attention to what your playing conditions are cloth, ball cleanliness, humidtiy etc. All of these have a strong effect on banking balls. As straight pool players WBM and I like really clean equipment and that can actually impede some effects you want when banking.

Last of all there are ways to open the pockets and make them play larger, to get that working for you &^%ff;jkfg;k dkfsdsl aw23%$s &^%$ and then you ^%GREklksd ereero and the balls just turn right into the pocket. If you have problems understanding that just call John Brumback he will tell you exactly how to do it.

As per John's tips in the banking thread i have been watching the first 2 tips; closer to center ball and keeping the cue level.
It has helped me already, I was using too much english, and my cue was elevated when it didn't need to be.
I guess less is more!

 

[John Brumback]

Just a report for Joey A...like I promised. I'll post some photo's later if I can.

John Brumback, the bank pool legend and newly elected (but not yet inducted) member of the Bank Pool Hall of Fame, was gracious enough to visit for 2 days of bank pool lessons (with some one pocket strategy and technique interspersed). John was the one GIVING the lessons...just to clarify.

Elvicash was able to attend for most of the lessons, and I'm hopeful that he got as much out of it as I did. We had a TREMENDOUS couple of days with great pool, great instruction, great food, and great conversation. Had several really enjoyable meals with the local pro players; all quite impressed with John's level of play and accomplishments.

I think that between elvicash and I, the two of us have read probably every pool book written. What John covers in his lessons is not available from any of the sources we have seen. We were very pleased that he was willing to share. There is NO substitute for hands-on training when it comes to high level banking.

I think it would be quite safe to assume that no one on the planet knows any more about bank pool than John. He was extremely pleasant and knowledgeable. I learned more about banks in 2 days than I thought possible ("if you knew what you didn't know, then you wouldn't 'not know it'" as Danny D. always says).

He was quite persuasive in presenting the principles of maximizing your success rate on a large variety of banks. He also covered the differences in bank technique required when playing different games or when the score of a game demands a specific change in strategy. My bank game improved enormously in only a couple of sessions (not to say it was great before, but it wasn't terrible).

I have always rated my pool lessons by how I feel afterwards. If I feel like a "kid with a new toy", and just can't wait to get to the table to work on the new material; then the lesson was a resounding success in my book. Further, if I feel that there is no way I could have learned the material on my own in a thousand years of self-directed practice, then I'm ECSTATIC about the lessons. Also, lessons are 10 times better if you get the feeling that the instructor is sincerely interested and enthusiastic in teaching, and is truly a "pool fanatic."

Johns lessons qualify on all the above counts as some of the best I've had (and I've had exposure to quite a number of great instructors - Jeanette Lee, George Breedlove, Mark Wilson, Jerry Briesath, Danny DiLiberto, Grady Mathews, Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland, and sjm). He really went overboard, teaching into the wee hours of each morning even though he didn't "have to."

If you are interested in learning basic, intermediate, or advanced bank techniques, bank pool strategy, one pocket strategy or damn near anything else about pool - DEFINITELY take some lessons from John. A big TWO THUMBS UP.

Due to the recent influx of requests for lessons...For anyone interested you can get In touch with me by emailing me at jhbpool1@aol.com
Hope It's ok for me to put this out here. Thanks, John B.

 

[JoeyA]

Due to the recent influx of requests for lessons...For anyone interested you can get In touch with me by emailing me at jhbpool1@aol.com
Hope It's ok for me to put this out here. Thanks, John B.

John,
You have EVERYONE's OK to do a little "advertising" in this forum.
Thanks for posting in the forum and we're all wishing you a successful and prosperous NEW YEAR!

Just don't tell all of your "SECRETS". When I do some pool commentary with you, I will need some "FRESH SECRETS". :wink:

AZ Billiards Main Forum needs more pros like you posting.

Thanks for what you bring to pool!

 

[Williebetmore]

So Willie, with your new found one pocket knowledge, you ready to play some sets?

U-man,
Hey, I always have been....just not with that big sandbagger JoeyA.

 

[John Brumback]

John,
You have EVERYONE's OK to do a little "advertising" in this forum.
Thanks for posting in the forum and we're all wishing you a successful and prosperous NEW YEAR!

Just don't tell all of your "SECRETS". When I do some pool commentary with you, I will need some "FRESH SECRETS". :wink:

AZ Billiards Main Forum needs more pros like you posting.

Thanks for what you bring to pool!

Joey A!! I really do appreciate you and all you have done for me, and the nice compliments!!!!!!!!!! When and where are you and I going to get to do
some commentary?? I would really like to do some on some bank pool matches some time!! If I ever get the chance..you and I will share some "secrets"
Thanks again Joey A.John B.

 

[u12armresl]

Ok.

I'd say I'm ready, but I have round 5 of me vs. back surgery in the next 2 weeks, so practice up and I will be ready for you soon.

Or maybe we could play a partners game with you and Elvicash and me and a partner. Still one pocket though.

Have a good new year.

 

[sjm]

Watching Brumback play bank pool is one of the highlights of any Derby City Classic for me. Wow, only three more weeks of waiting to go!

Glad to hear you had such a positive experience.

 

[satman]

Before I get off here

U-man,
Hey, I always have been....just not with that big sandbagger JoeyA.

It saddens me that I couldn't make it. I do appreciate the invite. Maybe next year, if your basement ain't full. I may have to stay for the banquet this year, just to watch John get inducted.



John, you're right, I don't think I have met anyone who loves pool more than Willie either. I used to say I did, but I think he has started edging me out of that spot.

 

[JoeyA]

The Big Easy

U-man,
Hey, I always have been....just not with that big sandbagger JoeyA.

Look... the grapevine has already reported to me that you want action with JoeyA.

Don't be shy about it.

Everyone wants action with JoeyA. JoeyA is from the Big Easy.

 

[elvicash]

Played in a bar box tourney this weekend. I got 9th -12th not so great but the bank knowledge came in handy, I pocketed most and controlled whitey.

John thanks again for the help I am banking better.

 

[Robert Raiford]

Watch the cue ball after contact to get feedback, if it is still spinning vertically (left or right) you did not transfer as much as you can, to transfer more to the object ball you actually need to use less left or right english. When you transfer the most english the CB will be dead after hitting the object ball.

It's not literally true from a physics perspective that the CB will be dead (i.e. have no sidespin) after transferring maximum sidespin to the OB. It's true that the amount of spin gained by the OB is equal to the amount lost by the CB, but the CB can only transfer a small percentage (about 36% max) of its spin even under ideal high-friction conditions. The CB will always retain most of its spin.

However, the idea may serve as a useful reminder to some that you achieve max spin transfer with less than max english. You can transfer up to 36% of the CB spin up until the point where the CB starts slipping against the OB instead of adhering to it. Once you have a slipping contact, you start transferring less. That's why if the CB spins a lot after contact, it probably wasn't max spin transfer (lots of leftover CB spin indicates a sliding contact).

Robert

 

[u12armresl]

Ok, sounds good.

Brickyard I take it? We could probably play doubles one pocket also you and Elvi and I can probably find someone from here or there to be on my team.

Race to 7 or 10 for all the cheese.

U-man,
Hey, I always have been....just not with that big sandbagger JoeyA.

 

[vagabond]

Just a report for Joey A...like I promised. I'll post some photo's later if I can.

John Brumback, the bank pool legend and newly elected (but not yet inducted) member of the Bank Pool Hall of Fame.... .

Addition to the above:No one should underestimate his prowess in 9 ball.
For those who dwell on fundamentals on stroke etc, John`s bridge is one of the best among the pros.

 

[Williebetmore]

For those who dwell on fundamentals on stroke etc, John`s bridge is one of the best among the pros.

V,
You are a smart and perceptive guy....err wait, you knew that.

Those who think pro's just spring from the womb running racks due to their natural talent are gravely mistaken. John told me about the lengths he went to to develop his bridge (doing finger stretching exercises every spare minute to get his bridge wider and more stable). He pointed out inadequacies in my bridge, and I've changed both my open and closed bridges with help from John (and Mark Wilson). Very funny you should mention it.

Though the changes seem small and possibly insignificant to many average players; it is the continual small refinements that keep you progressing towards a pro level. Its not the BIG jumps, its the many very SMALL jumps that improve your game. JMO.