john schimdt runs 266

[AtLarge]

Yes. Many or perhaps even most of the Championships in the 30s and 40s were by challenge matches. I think they were typically to 1200 or 1500 points in several blocks. I'd fill in more details, but Charlie Ursitti's web site appears to be broken. I believe the 182 record run by Procita was in such a Championship match.

And in today's world, we've seen a couple of types of competition where long runs are possible.

• One type is the high-run competitions at such places as the SBE and the DCC, which are used as qualifiers for a single-elimination tournament to follow. Although the high-run portions of these events are not directly player against player, they are a form of competition where it is possible to run as many balls as one can.

• In 2013, Accu-Stats held a "Make It Happen" 14.1 Invitational, which involved a double round-robin format with games to just 75 points. But a player who reached 75 points on a run of at least 50 could continue the run for bonus money. I think Pat Fleming would have allowed any such run to go to its natural conclusion, however long.

While neither of these types of long-run opportunity has the competitive pressure of possibly losing a match to an opponent by missing a shot, they do still carry some pressure beyond what one might feel while running balls in his basement or local room.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Really, what "science" made pool players better today than 50 years ago. The equipment is a little better, but that only make is a little easier on the players today, it does not make them better, per se.

Now, in the other sports, expert conditioning, speed drills, new playing techniques, video analysis, dietary supplements, knowing the right foods to put on the right muscle, much more instructors and work out facilities available for basketball, baseball, football, hockey players, etc. year round.

What has changed in pool in the last 50 years for players. The most significant might be LD shafts. yeah, the balls and cloth are better, again, that helps the player, but the player had to do nothing to get better through the new technology.

So, what exactly are these pool players doing so different today than 50 years ago that makes them superior players?

I didn't say science made them better, I said science proves that people in general are better at everything, as in it is scientifically measurable and demonstrable with most things. Pool has no reason to be any different. In those things where it can be measured for definitive proof, humans are better at it now than they were 50 years ago 99.999999999999% if not 100% of the time. What about pool would make it the exception to the other million skills out there? Nothing.

The reasons humans improve so much is a topic for another thread but as I said before, in many things, and certainly in pool, one of the biggest contributors is something other than instruction, training, diet, equipment, etc. It is simply the breaking of the mental barriers for what is possible, and this changes over time. As a direct result the performances change over time as well.

You think the 4 minute mile was finally broken solely because of diet, training, etc? Those things probably contributed, but one of if not the biggest factor was that as humans got closer and closer to that time, they actually started to believe it was truly possible. At one point people didn't really believe a 4:10 was possible. And then they didn't really believe a 4:09 was possible, and then a 4:08, and so on and so on, until they finally believed a 4 minute mile was possible. And once they believed it was possible, it was achieved. The thing about it though was that a 4 minute mile was possible back when they were still struggling to do a 4:10. Mental barriers are what held them back, not physical ones.

People never have the same mental barriers that they did 50 years prior, therefore their performances are always better than they were 50 years prior.

Again, if anyone could break the record, they would break the record, plain and simple. Who would not want the most notable pool record on the planet, held by the most notable professional pool player, who had the most notable world championships, winning 19.

See previous posts. It isn't worth the significant time, money and effort for a title that brings little real value. Again, if you don't believe this, put up 30k and find out just how wrong you were.

And most of Mosconi's world championships had only one opponent. Still fairly impressive, but not anywhere even close to as impressive as if they have been tournaments with many participants. But nobody disputes that Mosconi was head and shoulders above everyone in his time though. It is just that that has absolutely zero to do with how he would stack up to someone from another era. There are tons of examples of people who absolutely dominated their sport in one era and would be absolutely demolished if transported to a later era. Not saying that is the case with Mosconi, but he wouldn't be running over the top players of today like he did then either, no doubt about that.

Just remember, to be the BEST, you gotta beat the BEST. And right now, the BEST is 526.

No, actually, that run is not the best, and it isn't even 2nd, 3rd, or 4th on the list either. I don't recall what the best is off hand, but any run over 400 on a 9 ft is certainly better than a 526 on a 8 ft with buckets. Mosconi has the highest run on an 8 ft with buckets, but he certainly doesn't have the best run. And nobody has any reason to be playing on 8 fts with buckets and until there is a reason to do so his record will likely stand for eternity even though multiple people have the ability to break it.

And I'll do the $30K for a 526 run as well* Come and take my cheese

*conditions apply

I think there is about a .01% chance that you intend to put up the cash fund but if you are really serious then put it in escrow and turn over the handling of it to someone that is known and trusted such as Bob Jewett to administrate it with full control to include making the determination if the record was satisfactorily broken, making the payout to the player/s if it was, or refunding it back to you once the deadline has passed if it hasn't yet been broken. You will soon find out how wrong you were.

Bob Jewett is highly respected in the straight pool world and in general. He has been doing the straight pool challenges as the Derby for many years and would be a perfect choice to administer this challenge and fund if you or someone else funds it, assuming he is willing.

On a completely separate note unrelated to anything we are discussing, if I am not mistaken Bob often or always puts $10,000 of his own money from his own pocket into the prize fund for the straight pool challenge at the Derby yet he never mentions it nor seeks or gets any recognition for it. Thanks Bob, we all benefit and it has been much appreciated by fans and players alike.

 

[Poolplaya9]

No, that is not true. First off, Charlie Ursitti watched Mosconi run over 600 on a 9' table. Willie put his cue down, though he hadn't missed and the balls were wide open. He wanted to go to dinner. He said, "See. It's no big deal to run 600."

And I've run 1,734. And other people claim to have made or seen runs of up to 900+. None of it is accepted as true or at least not likely enough to be true so as to be accepted as the official record. All we can reasonably go by here is the official record which is considered such because of the reasonable proof associated with it. For the record though, I think it is possible Mosconi could have broken his own 526 record on 8 fts with buckets had he been so inclined. But like today's pros, there was no incentive to do so and it would have never happened to begin with except for the fact that he was paid to go around doing these exhibitions for many years.

Second, Mosconi traveled the country for years and according to just about everyone who ever saw him, ran 100 each and every time, and then stopped. Just think if each time he had kept going. Who knows what "the run" would have ended up being?

If someone were paying one of today's top straight pool pros to go around to pool rooms doing exhibition matches for many many years on the same type of equipment that existed then (much easier and looser than today's equipment) then they would be running 100 almost every time as well and would probably also end up breaking the record in one of the exhibitions at some point too just like Mosconi did.

 

[Poolplaya9]

As to incentive for the run -- there are a whole slew of guys that would give their left nut to be the record holder, the guy who beat Mosconi's run, and with video to prove it. Every single time one of these guys steps up to a table with a video camera rolling you know they are dying to get there. They are not out to run 200, or 300, or even 400. They want the record in the worst way.

If their goal was to beat Mosconi's record they would be taping their runs on 8 ft tables. How often have you heard about them taping runs on 8 ft tables? Was that never, or zero? If people would take the time to think things through with some logic for 3 seconds before they hit submit 98% of the dumb statements on here could be prevented.

Those players are simply trying to tape a high run. Obviously they are trying to run as many as they can, but none of them are thinking they are going to beat Mosconi's run on a 9 ft. They are simply trying to get the best run they can, whatever it is, or beat their personal best 9 ft run or some other goal. If they were "trying for Mosconi's record in the worst way" they would be trying on an 8 ft.

The thing about needing a prize is baloney -- the record is the prize and if that's not enough incentive you don't deserve to break it.

Mosconi didn't try for the record without an incentive either. He got the record while being paid for it. He was being paid to try to impress with his play and runs. Never did Mosconi ever attempt to set or break a high run record just for the sake of a record. Never. You know why? For the exact same reason that today's players don't either--it isn't worth the effort! It wasn't worth it to Mosconi, and it isn't worth it to most any other top player either. Now pay one of today's top players to go around for years doing exhibitions and challenge matches and you will see them incidentally break the record eventually too, just like Mosconi did. Or just put up a large prize and see it happen real quick.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Efren Reyes in 60 years old. Efren Reyes won the 2014 DCC one pocket tournament with 300 people entered, losing zero matches. Plenty of players from the younger generation were in the tournament.

Efren is a today's era player. Your own example is from this year. Efren was playing this year. If this year isn't today's era then I don't know what is. In the sense that we are discussing I think a player's era is defined by when they were actively competing, or at at the very least when they were actively competing near their peak. In either case Efren is still clearly a today's era player. In 50 years from now when people are thinking about the era of 2014, Efren will be one of the players that is thought of.

But apparently today's younger generation is SOO much better

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone talking about how young players are better than old players, at least not in this thread. Eras and ages are two different things. The era from 50 years ago had the same age ranges of players that today's era does.

 

[Poolplaya9]

It wouldn't be that hard to create a large jackpot for this. Have a traveling challenge at every tournament that is played on a specific style of table. $20 to try. You could have prizes for 50, 100, 150 ball runs etc, that would hopefully be donated by sponsors. Soon enough, the jackpot would get to a point that was worth some practice and effort. I hear a lot of people complain about the lack of payoff for breaking the record, but no one does anything about it. I hear the above poster chirping this, and challenging others to put up money. Why don't you organize something like I proposed and then the discussion can be settled once and for all.

Even in the scenario you propose, where people get to try for a run for a fee such as $20 an attempt, somebody still has to put up and guarantee the full prize fund right from the get go. If the prize fund is 30k, yes after a long, long time you will eventually collect the 30k in fee attempts, but the full 30k has to be put up by someone right from the start in case it is won before the 30k in fees is collected. Who is going to guarantee and put up the 30k right from the start? What if the record gets broken by the very first guy on the very first attempt? So you have collected $20, and now you need to pay out 30k, on the spot. So you still have the same dilemma even when trying to structure it this way. And if you don't start it off with a large prize, I don't think many top players are going to dump very much of their time, effort or money into it.

In any case somebody more connected in the industry would be much better suited for setting up a challenge with a prize fund for breaking the record than I would be for a myriad of reasons. And they would have even more motivation if they were in the camp that believes it isn't possible. A perfect example of a person that meets both criteria is Mr. Bond who is extremely well connected in the industry and is one of the very most vocal every time this topic comes up in the camp of "impossible record" and "nobody today or in the last 50 years had the ability to break the record" and "if they could have they would have but they haven't because they can't". He even continuously attempted to argue with John Schmidt in a recent interview he did with him on this very topic when John was saying all the exact same things that I have been saying.

But like everybody else, it is all lip service. He has the ability to easily organize a prize fund for this but he won't because he doesn't really believe what he is saying nor do any of the others, hence the reason no money ever gets put up. You will continue to get all the lip service, but you aren't ever going to see anyone put any real cash behind it, even when they have the ability to put it up themselves or organize it from others as Mr. Bond does.

The best chance for this is for somebody like predator or cuetec or OB cues or mezz to put up a prize fund that is available only to one of their sponsored players if they can break the record, or for them to make the prize available to anyone as long as their cue/shaft/equipment is used for the record. They might actually get some decent advertising value out of it.

Neither is very good at all though because in both cases most players will be excluded. If say predator puts the offer out only for their sponsored players, then you have excluded the other 99% of players who are not sponsored by predator. And if predator makes it open to anyone as long as they use a predator while setting the record, you still exclude all the players that are sponsored by some other cue manufacturer (which will be most of the top players). Shane Van Boening for example, as a cuetec sponsored player, wouldn't be able to take part in a challenge that required him to use a predator shaft.

 

[KRJ]

Efren is a today's era player. Your own example is from this year. Efren was playing this year. If this year isn't today's era then I don't know what is. In the sense that we are discussing I think a player's era is defined by when they were actively competing, or at at the very least when they were actively competing near their peak. In either case Efren is still clearly a today's era player. In 50 years from now when people are thinking about the era of 2014, Efren will be one of the players that is thought of.



Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone talking about how young players are better than old players, at least not in this thread. Eras and ages are two different things. The era from 50 years ago had the same age ranges of players that today's era does.

God, I think tho protests too much. How much was Willie paid to make his run that night, a hundo, maybe two?? What does that translated into today's dollars?

Again, someone, anyone could do it just for the glory. We know how pool players are not "glory" hounds and all but geez, you'd think there would be at least one

And no, I don't see any human improvements in the last 50 years to benefit pool players other than there are MORE books, and video's available then ever before.

Mental game is a mental game. Folks still have problems with, just as much back then.

 

[Poolplaya9]

God, I think tho protests too much. How much was Willie paid to make his run that night, a hundo, maybe two?? What does that translated into today's dollars?

Again, someone, anyone could do it just for the glory. We know how pool players are not "glory" hounds and all but geez, you'd think there would be at least one

I don't know the total amounts but Willie was paid for years and years for those exhibitions and runs before he finally popped off that 526 on an 8 ft with buckets. Pay any top straight pool player from today for years and years to do exhibitions and they will pop a better run than that within the same years and years that it took Mosconi to do it.

Again, if nobody can best that record, put up the damn prize fund, your money is completely safe. More lip service, no action. If you really believed what you are saying you would put up the prize fund and prove it because there simply wouldn't be any risk for you. But you are full of crap and don't believe a word of it, and neither does anyone else.

I'll say it again, if it can't be done, there is no risk for you, so put up the prize fund.

By the way, what on earth did you post have to do with my post that you quoted?

And in case you missed it, since you say that there is no risk of the record being broken, lets see if you are willing to put up the prize fund to back that up. Go ahead, put up the prize fund and prove me wrong. If you do we can side bet on whether the record will be broken, that way you can lose the 30k plus whatever amount we decide to bet.

One more time, put up the prize fund if it can't be done. Still waiting for something besides lip service.

 

[KRJ]

I don't know the total amounts but Willie was paid for years and years for those exhibitions and runs before he finally popped off that 526 on an 8 ft with buckets. Pay any top straight pool player from today for years and years to do exhibitions and they will pop a better run than that within the same years and years that it took Mosconi to do it.

Again, if nobody can best that record, put up the damn prize fund, your money is completely safe. More lip service, no action. If you really believed what you are saying you would put up the prize fund and prove it because there simply wouldn't be any risk for you. But you are full of crap and don't believe a word of it, and neither does anyone else.

I'll say it again, if it can't be done, there is no risk for you, so put up the prize fund.

By the way, what on earth did you post have to do with my post that you quoted?

And in case you missed it, since you say that there is no risk of the record being broken, lets see if you are willing to put up the prize fund to back that up. Go ahead, put up the prize fund and prove me wrong. If you do we can side bet on whether the record will be broken, that way you can lose the 30k plus whatever amount we decide to bet.

One more time, put up the prize fund if it can't be done. Still waiting for something besides lip service.

I'll put my $30K at 2-1 against your $15K. Thus, if someone runs it, they get $15K from me and you get $15K. Oh wait, you were just giving lip service. yeah, I thought so. If they don't, you pay me. Pretty simple, right ?

One table, one week, as many players that want to show up to give it a go. On the same table, same rails, same cloth, same balls, same tip, same chalk, and same temperature. More lip ?

 

[Poolplaya9]

I'll put my $30K at 2-1 against your $15K. Thus, if someone runs it, they get $15K from me and you get $15K. Oh wait, you were just giving lip service. yeah, I thought so. If they don't, you pay me. Pretty simple, right ?

One table, one week, as many players that want to show up to give it a go. On the same table, same rails, same cloth, same balls, same tip, same chalk, and same temperature. More lip ?

More lip service I see. Set up 30k for the player who breaks the record, give a reasonable amount of time for it to be done (a week is laughable, and that was Willie's best in 74 years of playing in comparison), and then get with me and we will bet even on whether they do it or not within that reasonable time frame.

Until then just as I expected, nothing but more lip service from you. When is somebody actually going to contribute something significant to the prize fund instead of just lip servicing about how it can never be beat (which would mean there would never be any risk to their money)? Apparently never.

 

[lfigueroa]

And I've run 1,734. And other people claim to have made or seen runs of up to 900+. None of it is accepted as true or at least not likely enough to be true so as to be accepted as the official record. All we can reasonably go by here is the official record which is considered such because of the reasonable proof associated with it. For the record though, I think it is possible Mosconi could have broken his own 526 record on 8 fts with buckets had he been so inclined. But like today's pros, there was no incentive to do so and it would have never happened to begin with except for the fact that he was paid to go around doing these exhibitions for many years.



If someone were paying one of today's top straight pool pros to go around to pool rooms doing exhibition matches for many many years on the same type of equipment that existed then (much easier and looser than today's equipment) then they would be running 100 almost every time as well and would probably also end up breaking the record in one of the exhibitions at some point too just like Mosconi did.

Charlie Ursitti is a highly credible witness. But, more than one person saw the 526.

No one is going to pay anyone today to travel around the country 300 days out of the year and put on exhibitions. However, that is also one of the reasons Willie was so much better than todays’ 14.1 players — he was playing straight pool everyday on a wide variety of equipment.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

If their goal was to beat Mosconi's record they would be taping their runs on 8 ft tables. How often have you heard about them taping runs on 8 ft tables? Was that never, or zero? If people would take the time to think things through with some logic for 3 seconds before they hit submit 98% of the dumb statements on here could be prevented.

Those players are simply trying to tape a high run. Obviously they are trying to run as many as they can, but none of them are thinking they are going to beat Mosconi's run on a 9 ft. They are simply trying to get the best run they can, whatever it is, or beat their personal best 9 ft run or some other goal. If they were "trying for Mosconi's record in the worst way" they would be trying on an 8 ft.



Mosconi didn't try for the record without an incentive either. He got the record while being paid for it. He was being paid to try to impress with his play and runs. Never did Mosconi ever attempt to set or break a high run record just for the sake of a record. Never. You know why? For the exact same reason that today's players don't either--it isn't worth the effort! It wasn't worth it to Mosconi, and it isn't worth it to most any other top player either. Now pay one of today's top players to go around for years doing exhibitions and challenge matches and you will see them incidentally break the record eventually too, just like Mosconi did. Or just put up a large prize and see it happen real quick.

It is unquestionable that there are guys out there that would love to hold the record. Why aren’t they trying on 8’ tables? Maybe it’s just not so easy ;-)

Mosconi kept going that night because the crowd in attendance urged him to keep going. That’s all. Unlike today’s players Mosconi didn’t go into a room, with a table set up perfectly, and a recording camera rolling, because it didn’t matter to him — he could run balls at will. Running 600 balls? No big deal.

Lastly, there's been lot's of money up for grabs for beating the record at the DCC for years.

Lou Figueroa

 

[KRJ]

More lip service I see. Set up 30k for the player who breaks the record, give a reasonable amount of time for it to be done (a week is laughable, and that was Willie's best in 74 years of playing in comparison), and then get with me and we will bet even on whether they do it or not within that reasonable time frame.

Until then just as I expected, nothing but more lip service from you. When is somebody actually going to contribute something significant to the prize fund instead of just lip servicing about how it can never be beat (which would mean there would never be any risk to their money)? Apparently never.

OK, give me a time frame that you think it reasonable. But you are putting up $15K if it is not done in an agreed time frame.

And because you don't seem to understand, most records eventually can be beaten, and this record is no exception, what you fail to understand, is this is the record until someone beats it. I NEVER said it could not be beat, not once, ever. You fail to grasp that, but words have meanings.

And no amount of bribes should be necessary to do it on such a "gaffe" table. Yet, it still stands.

Yet, I'll send my $30K to Jay Helfert, you send $15K. He will be the judge, jury and executor of the "estate".

 

[iusedtoberich]

Shakes head

A thread about a nice run by Schmidt turns into Mosconi bashing and now who has a bigger d--- to put up cash.

Carry on!

 

[KRJ]

It is unquestionable that there are guys out there that would love to hold the record. Why aren’t they trying on 8’ tables? Maybe it’s just not so easy ;-)

Mosconi kept going that night because the crowd in attendance urged him to keep going. That’s all. Unlike today’s players Mosconi didn’t go into a room, with a table set up perfectly, and a recording camera rolling, because it didn’t matter to him — he could run balls at will. Running 600 balls? No big deal.

Lastly, there's been lot's of money up for grabs for beating the record at the DCC for years.

Lou Figueroa

I would gladly pay $30K for the record. A one time $30K donattion to assist pool development to kids across the country. In exchange, every pool player in America signs off that I am officially "Mr. 527". Just tell me where to send the check

 

[KRJ]

Shakes head

A thread about a nice run by Schmidt turns into Mosconi bashing and now who has a bigger d--- to put up cash.

Carry on!

I agree. And I tipped my hat to John as well. I can like both players without knocking one of them.

And thus, my last post here unless someone sends in $15K to Jay. If not, there is not much else to talk about

 

[Bob Jewett]

Even in the scenario you propose, where people get to try for a run for a fee such as $20 an attempt, somebody still has to put up and guarantee the full prize fund right from the get go. If the prize fund is 30k, yes after a long, long time you will eventually collect the 30k in fee attempts, but the full 30k has to be put up by someone right from the start in case it is won before the 30k in fees is collected. Who is going to guarantee and put up the 30k right from the start? ..

At the high run competition at the BCAPL in Las Vegas, Mark Griffin and I were putting up the $20k prize for a 526. The entry was $20 for four tries with prizes for the highest runs actually shot.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Don't look now but I think someone just got called out. lol

RJ - you the man. I'm gonna come find you on league night get you a beer or three. You have the full support of ABR should poolplaya9 decide to put his money where his pie hole is.

But I wouldn't worry. He's gonna think real hard about the actual difficulty of running that many balls without a single missed shot.

 

[liakos]

You guys are nuts! I'll have to video myself of running 527! It's so easy im a B player and know how easy it is! I'll have it done by Thursday! I'm working till tomorrow night, so I'll need a couple shots at it

By the way, awesome run John!!!

 

[Mr. Bond]

At the high run competition at the BCAPL in Las Vegas, Mark Griffin and I were putting up the $20k prize for a 526. The entry was $20 for four tries with prizes for the highest runs actually shot.

Knowing there is 20k, sitting there, with my name on it, I myself, if I thought I had any real chance of beating that record, would practice my brains out before the event, come in hot and blow several hundred, if not thousand dollars trying to smoke that record.

And I suspect many have done the same, who are light years better than me. Anyone could train for that event and go for the gold... Could it really be that hard?