john schimdt vs jeremy jones

[CJ Wiley]

Rules and Regulations to Allow the Cream to Rise to the Top

I like call pocket as well CJ, but pool rooms are businesses. Pro caliber players play on the table a small fraction of the time (and often play for free). When you make the playing conditons too difficult the regular patrons don't enjoy it as much and will go elsewhere if given an option. 4-1/4" would be an excellent standard and I'd love to see more rooms with tables with that pocket size. When you go below 4" it just isn't much fun with any game IMO. My hat is off to Diamond for making an effort to standardize a pocket size. Many of the pool rooms of long ago had 4-3/4 to 5" pocket Gold Crowns.

Martin

Yes, Martin, I see your points and they are valid. I also am a golfer and there are golf courses of many different levels of difficulty (someone else mentioned this and I agree). There are municipal golf courses for the general public all the way up to touch country club courses in many cities and towns.

All of these courses have several sets of "tees" that change the level of distance, thus the difficulty of the course. The pro's play on a totally different type of course that is much longer and set up with many more "obstacles" and more difficult "pin placements". The regular golfer get's "torn up" trying to play on the pros course, but there's a waiting list at Pebble Beach and they charge 3-$600 a round (I'm told now).

The point is the pros can have a different set up than amateurs and this is not unusual at all. Many amateurs would be drawn to play under these conditions and other would not and prefer the "front tees". My opinion is the professional tournaments have "de - evolved" in the last 15 years to rules, equipment and tables that "even the playing field."

This isn't the only reason pool has cycled down, however, if we are make changes to improve the overall game this needs to be addressed. At the professional level (in my opinion) the cream should be allowed to come to the top.

My suggestion is, in part, is roll out rules, no jump sticks, 4.25 inch pockets, 10'tables, call pocket, no break cues (or strict restrictions on tips, length, weight, and materials) and suit and vest (or tie) dress codes (these things may not be popular, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it). 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[BeiberLvr]

Indeed. Earl beat him again in Tunica, before Landon roasted Earl.

So Landon is better than Shane? :smile:

To elaborate on what CJ said earlier, I imagine he just meant if Player A beats Player B under those conditions, then Player A was the better player at that time.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Out of sight, out of mind" - THIS MUST CHANGE or nothing will ever change.

CJ:

I'm so GLAD to see someone of your caliber, visibility, and credibility to say this -- all of it. But man, are you ever going to get beat-up about this from the Texas Express crowd!

We got yo' back, tho,
-Sean

As many of you know John McChesney (RIP) was one of the inventors of the Texas Express (as well as Robin A./Randy G.) rules and they were not designed for champion players. The McDermott tour used {Texas Express Rules} to speed up play and they DID want equalizers to get the biggest fields possible. I agree with their strategic business model and it worked very well.

However, at the pro level it's about "quality, not quantity," and the conditions should be vastly more difficult. We can run out as well on 4.25 inch pockets as an amateur player can on 5" inch pockets. It really doesn't make much difference to me, and the fact is I LIKE playing this type Game much better.

We are inclined to miss much more on loose equipment because we don't put ourselves as "deep" into the "zone." This makes me careless and the root cause is I simply don't like to play under those conditions.

Again, I may not speak for all pros, but I noticed John S. agreed with what I said about pocket size and playing conditions and I'm sure he can relate to what I just communicated.

The bottom line is this: Champion players shed a lot of "Blood, Sweat and Tears" reach their level of play and want to be challenged. If the tournaments can only fill 16 spots under these conditions, then so be it, that's the size Pro tournaments should be.

Promoters can then spent 5k to actually advertise the event on TV, Radio, Print, etc. and charge at the door like we always did in Dallas (I usually did over 10k at the door and had TV too).

One of the major reasons for pool's decline{imo} is a lack of true promotion. When a pro tournament comes to a city no even knows it's there except the "die hard" pool fans. (if this offends anyone, well, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it)

My dedication is to the Game and nothing or no one else. The Game is the "Worlds Greatest Game" and should be promoted as such. "Out of sight, out of mind" - THIS MUST CHANGE or nothing will ever change.

If a player is complaining because the conditions are too tough I would personally question if they were a bona fide pro or not. I say this because if you have Shane, Earl, Johnny, Efren, Bustemante, Hatch, Mike, Dennis O./Hatch, or even myself in a tournament you will NEVER hear us talk about the tournament conditions being "too tough," if anything we want them tougher.

This will create a desire to improve and learn the real techniques (TOI-for my critics)) to play championship speed. The Game wants the cream to rise to the top, and it should get it's wish! 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Less players with longer races is a great formula.

So Landon is better than Shane? :smile:

To elaborate on what CJ said earlier, I imagine he just meant if Player A beats Player B under those conditions, then Player A was the better player at that time.

Yes, a race to 15 doesn't mean much. Nothing against Landon, he's an accomplished player, it he better than Shane and Earl? Not yet. :smile:

In golf they play 72 holes and it's probably the same in pool. A race to 72 would be a great test to see who's best. Less players with longer races is a great formula (provided there's a promotional campaign included). In the Johnson City Days the tournaments went on for weeks I'm told. It was a bit before my time, but they did a lot of things right.

I know it's different now, but the pro scene is broke and we must figure a way to fix it. Fundamental laws of promotion, advertising and common sense will go a long way in finding the solutions.

 

[bender_lu]

My suggestion is, in part, is roll out rules, no jump sticks, 4.25 inch pockets, 10'tables, call pocket, no break cues (or strict restrictions on tips, length, weight, and materials) and suit and vest (or tie) dress codes (these things may not be popular, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it). 'The Game is the Teacher'

Hi CJ.

i agree on a LOT with you, concerning jump sticks for example. I also like larger tables, during my studies is used to play 9 ball on a snooker table since there was no normal poolroom with good tables. Run outs close to impossible... :thumbup:

The problems are: you organize tournaments on 10 footers (id love it) but who can train on a 10 footer? noone because no poolrom has them. they take a lot of space, the owners would have to reinvest A LOT and they would not bring much money because noone except serious players would play on them.

I enjoy that i can play under the same or very similar conditions as the top pros because its easier for me to "see" the differences in greatness and maybe different equip would create a sort of gap between the basis and the pros?!

Btw, the most fun game you may fin is 8 ball on a snookertable (of course, ball sized like snookerballs)

Very challenging and fun :thumbup: Keep the good work up! Im at the poolhall

 

[jalapus logan]

I will take CJ's side in this. The real players love tight pockets because they feel that it truly distinguishes an A player from a true professional. I've watched shortstops take an easy ghost game on a tight pocket table and get robbed. 4 or 4.25 pockets on a nice playing 9 footer is a real test of skill and isn't just a break contest which is what bar box has become.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

This has become an interesting debate, IMO, and I'm surely not going to undermine people who play first rate pool like cj and is. However, really small pockets reduces the ability of any player of any caliber to put an object ball in either the left or right side of the pocket. Because of this, certain cue ball paths are eliminated and creative pattern play is reduced. The creative part of the game is what keeps me interested in pool, not just pure shot marking. Speaking of shot making, small pockets also reduce even pro players willingness to attempt a low % shot, which reduces part of the thrill from the game.

All of this is only my opinion of course. But it seems to me that the real $ is in viewership, not matching up. And viewers will be reduced if real tight pockets become the norm. Pool can be boring enough as it is. Why make it more so?

 

[CJ Wiley]

A true professional should be able to make a living playing their game/sport

This has become an interesting debate, IMO, and I'm surely not going to undermine people who play first rate pool like cj and is. However, really small pockets reduces the ability of any player of any caliber to put an object ball in either the left or right side of the pocket. Because of this, certain cue ball paths are eliminated and creative pattern play is reduced. The creative part of the game is what keeps me interested in pool, not just pure shot marking. Speaking of shot making, small pockets also reduce even pro players willingness to attempt a low % shot, which reduces part of the thrill from the game.

All of this is only my opinion of course. But it seems to me that the real $ is in viewership, not matching up. And viewers will be reduced if real tight pockets become the norm. Pool can be boring enough as it is. Why make it more so?

I understand where your're coming from, it just seems you don't realize how well we play on 4.25 or even 4 inch pockets. A champion player can beat the "ghost" on 4 inch pockets giving up 7/5 on the money. Also, the shot making is more impressive when you see it done on this type equipment.

It's like in golf a 480 yard par 4 is a "bogey hole" for even a really good golfer, but for a pro they are going to average par. It's the same thing in pool. I've played many times on 4.25 inch pockets and average missing one ball every two hours. My opinions on the equipment and suggestions I made on the previous post is for champion caliber players.

I believe right now we should only take the top players and market them in tournaments of no more than 8-16 players. This way we can pay them ALL enough money to live comfortably instead of trying to feed a 32 or ever 64 man tournament where 80% of the players would starve if it was their only income. I know it's not like this now, and none of us (pros) "like" this now.

A true professional should be able to make a living playing their game/sport and pool is no different. If we can only afford to pay 4 players, then that's what we need to start with. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I recommend each pool room just get ONE 10' table.

Hi CJ.

i agree on a LOT with you, concerning jump sticks for example. I also like larger tables, during my studies is used to play 9 ball on a snooker table since there was no normal poolroom with good tables. Run outs close to impossible... :thumbup:

The problems are: you organize tournaments on 10 footers (id love it) but who can train on a 10 footer? noone because no poolrom has them. they take a lot of space, the owners would have to reinvest A LOT and they would not bring much money because noone except serious players would play on them.

I enjoy that i can play under the same or very similar conditions as the top pros because its easier for me to "see" the differences in greatness and maybe different equip would create a sort of gap between the basis and the pros?!

Btw, the most fun game you may fin is 8 ball on a snookertable (of course, ball sized like snookerballs)

Very challenging and fun :thumbup: Keep the good work up! Im at the poolhall

I recommend each pool room just get ONE 10' table. It would be very popular with games like golf, one pocket, and ring games would be played regularly. I had one in my pool room for 17 years and it was busy more than any other table on the average.

 

[john schmidt]

As many of you know John McChesney (RIP) was one of the inventors of the Texas Express (as well as Robin A./Randy G.) rules and they were not designed for champion players. The McDermott tour used {Texas Express Rules} to speed up play and they DID want equalizers to get the biggest fields possible. I agree with their strategic business model and it worked very well.

However, at the pro level it's about "quality, not quantity," and the conditions should be vastly more difficult. We can run out as well on 4.25 inch pockets as an amateur player can on 5" inch pockets. It really doesn't make much difference to me, and the fact is I LIKE playing this type Game much better.

We are inclined to miss much more on loose equipment because we don't put ourselves as "deep" into the "zone." This makes me careless and the root cause is I simply don't like to play under those conditions.

Again, I may not speak for all pros, but I noticed John S. agreed with what I said about pocket size and playing conditions and I'm sure he can relate to what I just communicated.

The bottom line is this: Champion players shed a lot of "Blood, Sweat and Tears" reach their level of play and want to be challenged. If the tournaments can only fill 16 spots under these conditions, then so be it, that's the size Pro tournaments should be.

Promoters can then spent 5k to actually advertise the event on TV, Radio, Print, etc. and charge at the door like we always did in Dallas (I usually did over 10k at the door and had TV too).

One of the major reasons for pool's decline{imo} is a lack of true promotion. When a pro tournament comes to a city no even knows it's there except the "die hard" pool fans. (if this offends anyone, well, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it)

My dedication is to the Game and nothing or no one else. The Game is the "Worlds Greatest Game" and should be promoted as such. "Out of sight, out of mind" - THIS MUST CHANGE or nothing will ever change.

If a player is complaining because the conditions are too tough I would personally question if they were a bona fide pro or not. I say this because if you have Shane, Earl, Johnny, Efren, Bustemante, Hatch, Mike, Dennis O./Hatch, or even myself in a tournament you will NEVER hear us talk about the tournament conditions being "too tough," if anything we want them tougher.

This will create a desire to improve and learn the real techniques (TOI-for my critics)) to play championship speed. The Game wants the cream to rise to the top, and it should get it's wish! 'The Game is the Teacher'

good points cj.
break sticks,luck,big pockets,suck . 14.1 long races on tight pockets would fix those issues.
i played 2 14.1 events in august and i think i made around 5000 balls and my opponents around 3500 and not a single ball lucked in.
also never a jump shot also no break ques were needed.
i know this will never happen but when i hear of pros that only play nine or tenball i kinda question too how are they considered top pros when they wont or dont play 1 pocket,14.1 and rotation pool.
theres a reason in my opinion why every year at the world 14.1 tourney the winners are names like hohmann,ortmann,cohen,feijen,schmidt because those are the best in the field playing a game of virtually no luck.
most pros think everytime they lose at 10ball its because table needs to be bigger and pockets smaller.they just need to quit playing lucky games by lucky rules. again 14.1 addresses all those issues.
i actually think the 10ball ghost on 4.25 pockets would be a good way to go.
anyway cj keep up the good work and i agree on basically everything your saying for the record.

 

[jalapus logan]

I understand where your're coming from, it just seems you don't realize how well we play on 4.25 or even 4 inch pockets. A champion player can beat the "ghost" on 4 inch pockets giving up 7/5 on the money. Also, the shot making is more impressive when you see it done on this type equipment.

It's like in golf a 480 yard par 4 is a "bogey hole" for even a really good golfer, but for a pro they are going to average par. It's the same thing in pool. I've played many times on 4.25 inch pockets and average missing one ball every two hours. My opinions on the equipment and suggestions I made on the previous post is for champion caliber players.

I believe right now we should only take the top players and market them in tournaments of no more than 8-16 players. This way we can pay them ALL enough money to live comfortably instead of trying to feed a 32 or ever 64 man tournament where 80% of the players would starve if it was their only income. I know it's not like this now, and none of us (pros) "like" this now.

A true professional should be able to make a living playing their game/sport and pool is no different. If we can only afford to pay 4 players, then that's what we need to start with. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to participate in these forums. Your thoughts are appreciated for sure.

I think that we can all agree that the end goal is to increase the "pie" available for all of pool to share. That translates to more $ for players, venders, room owners, etc. That is the goal imo. I feel like I am pool's target market. Pool is my primary past time and I am one of pro pools few fans it seems. Moreover, I have $ to burn and I burn quite a bit of it on pool. To me, in order to get me to spend my $, it will not be changing the game like bonus ball. Nor will it be decreasing pocket sizes from what I honestly feel are challenging enough on a diamond pro table. What I do want to see, is a variety of the historically appreciated games played. This is why I love the DCC so much. Lots of variety to watch: banks, 1pkt, 14.1, 9 ball.

I hear what you pros are saying about reducing slop and I agree with that. Call pocket for sure. But I just can't see where even 9 ball as played on a 9 foot diamond pro table is not challenging enough and I feel like the data support my position. Specifically, AZB member atlarge has been kind enough to compile data on TV table matches from a number of tourneys throughout the years. If I recall correctly, his data show that pros tend to run out 9 ball somewhere about 20% of the time. It that too high? It all depends on your opinion of course, but for me as a fan who will spend $, I do not think that it is too high and I will pay to watch aggressive play. I think that it is exciting to watch packages get put up. And packages do not happen very often. I go to the DCC each year and the largest package I saw was a two pack by Adam Smith. Granted, I only have time to attend on the weekends so I always have to miss much of the action (boo).

In any event, I support your efforts and I feel that you are one of pool's good guys. Thanks btw, for your Mosconi cup efforts. What a great event! I hope that you are able to attend the derby this year. Great tourney and a great opportunity, imo.

Cheers,

JL

 

[jalapus logan]

I recommend each pool room just get ONE 10' table. It would be very popular with games like golf, one pocket, and ring games would be played regularly. I had one in my pool room for 17 years and it was busy more than any other table on the average.

I hear you. But the real challenge is getting pool rooms to open up, period...yikes:sad:

Pool rooms keep shuttering their doors all over and my area is no exception. In the last several years, we lost The Green Room, The Rack Club and the Diamond Billiards Pub. Thank god I have two tables in my basement or I am afraid I'd have to take up golf...:banghead:

 

[jalapus logan]

good points cj.
break sticks,luck,big pockets,suck . 14.1 long races on tight pockets would fix those issues.
i played 2 14.1 events in august and i think i made around 5000 balls and my opponents around 3500 and not a single ball lucked in.
also never a jump shot also no break ques were needed.
i know this will never happen but when i hear of pros that only play nine or tenball i kinda question too how are they considered top pros when they wont or dont play 1 pocket,14.1 and rotation pool.
theres a reason in my opinion why every year at the world 14.1 tourney the winners are names like hohmann,ortmann,cohen,feijen,schmidt because those are the best in the field playing a game of virtually no luck.
most pros think everytime they lose at 10ball its because table needs to be bigger and pockets smaller.they just need to quit playing lucky games by lucky rules. again 14.1 addresses all those issues.
i actually think the 10ball ghost on 4.25 pockets would be a good way to go.
anyway cj keep up the good work and i agree on basically everything your saying for the record.

John, you are the man! I hope you are able to attend the DCC this year, as your name is one of just a few that is missing from my cue case ha ha ha. Seriously though, I do enjoy watching you play and I appreciate your achievements in 14.1 for sure. Keep it up!

 

[CJ Wiley]

All other games will benefit if we get something consistent on TV

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to participate in these forums. Your thoughts are appreciated for sure.

I think that we can all agree that the end goal is to increase the "pie" available for all of pool to share. That translates to more $ for players, venders, room owners, etc. That is the goal imo. I feel like I am pool's target market. Pool is my primary past time and I am one of pro pools few fans it seems. Moreover, I have $ to burn and I burn quite a bit of it on pool. To me, in order to get me to spend my $, it will not be changing the game like bonus ball. Nor will it be decreasing pocket sizes from what I honestly feel are challenging enough on a diamond pro table. What I do want to see, is a variety of the historically appreciated games played. This is why I love the DCC so much. Lots of variety to watch: banks, 1pkt, 14.1, 9 ball.

I hear what you pros are saying about reducing slop and I agree with that. Call pocket for sure. But I just can't see where even 9 ball as played on a 9 foot diamond pro table is not challenging enough and I feel like the data support my position. Specifically, AZB member atlarge has been kind enough to compile data on TV table matches from a number of tourneys throughout the years. If I recall correctly, his data show that pros tend to run out 9 ball somewhere about 20% of the time. It that too high? It all depends on your opinion of course, but for me as a fan who will spend $, I do not think that it is too high and I will pay to watch aggressive play. I think that it is exciting to watch packages get put up. And packages do not happen very often. I go to the DCC each year and the largest package I saw was a two pack by Adam Smith. Granted, I only have time to attend on the weekends so I always have to miss much of the action (boo).

In any event, I support your efforts and I feel that you are one of pool's good guys. Thanks btw, for your Mosconi cup efforts. What a great event! I hope that you are able to attend the derby this year. Great tourney and a great opportunity, imo.

Cheers,

JL

Yes, 9 Ball is still a great game, if played by the right rules. The 10 Ball break became somewhat of a joke once Shane showed everyone the "trick" to it (and it takes a lot of practice, but once you learn it makes 10 Ball easier than 9 Ball to break and run out).

ROLL OUT RULES, with call pocket and one "two way safe" and one "two way shot" a game. These are the best rules for 9/10 Ball and I will argue that point (in a professional format ) with anyone on earth.

I like the 14.1 as far as the "no luck" element, it's just not going to be something we could put on TV. I played in one major Straight Pool event in my life and got 2nd (Efren beat me in the finals, I beat him in the winners side), I just think for a future on TV it MUST be 9 BALL.

All other games will benefit if we get something consistent on TV and that's my mission this year. I've been involved in a LOT of televised events (over 70 to date) and understand the formula. I will welcome anyone that wants to be on the "TV Team," I will assure you it will happen again. The fact of the matter is several stations are starving for something new and refreshing and pool can offer that as long as the characters in the "Pool Show" are brought out and developed. Not necessarily a "Reality TV Show," however that's the correct "track" to be on. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Keith Jawahir]

One rule that I'm a huge fan of is a rule that Earl used in TAR 20, which is that the 10 ball has to be the last ball off the table. If it gets combo'ed in, it spots up and the player keeps shooting.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Game its self can only do so much, it needs the real "pool characters" produced

I hear you. But the real challenge is getting pool rooms to open up, period...yikes:sad:

Pool rooms keep shuttering their doors all over and my area is no exception. In the last several years, we lost The Green Room, The Rack Club and the Diamond Billiards Pub. Thank god I have two tables in my basement or I am afraid I'd have to take up golf...:banghead:

When pool lost it's presence on TV/ESPN the game dropped in a matter of years. "Out of sight, out of mind" Steaming video has it's place, but it's not ESPN. We averaged over a million viewers a show in the 90s and there's no reason we can't do that again. There's certainly a big enough demand, if the show is entertaining. The Game its self can only do so much, it needs the real "pool characters" to be groomed and produced. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[watchez]

A
One of the major reasons for pool's decline{imo} is a lack of true promotion. When a pro tournament comes to a city no even knows it's there except the "die hard" pool fans. (if this offends anyone, well, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it)

CJ - I like a lot of what you say but this is far from the truth. It is not one of the major reasons for the decline in pool. With social media and the internet, pool tournaments are promoted more now than anytime in your lifetime. We all know the major reason for the decline in pool - it will just take someone with the guts to say it and do something about it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the sudden rise in poker's popularity seems to make this case.

CJ - I like a lot of what you say but this is far from the truth. It is not one of the major reasons for the decline in pool. With social media and the internet, pool tournaments are promoted more now than anytime in your lifetime. We all know the major reason for the decline in pool - it will just take someone with the guts to say it and do something about it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to and I don't think I'm off base saying the following:

You can take all the "social media and internet" and add it together and you will get only a fraction of the exposure for pool in the 90s (I received over 600 international hours on ESPN). TV is important to a sport/game's vitality, and the sudden rise in poker's popularity seems to make this case.

The key issue with social media is it's only people that are already pool players of some level (league, recreational, tournament), and there's no "media machine" to draw and expose non players. Pool needs to be shown as a viable entertainment option for the general public to go to a billiard club, buy equipment, etc. I can't imagine that social media draws in as many as probably discontinue the game.

The industry is down 40% because of a few reasons, and I'd have to put lack of ESPN exposure as number one. My opinion is just my opinion and I, like Dennis Miller "could be wrong." What, in your opinion is the major reason? We can agree to disagree, I'm curious what you think is wrong.

 

[watchez]

You said the major reason for the decline in pool is the lack of promotion when a tournament comes to town and no one even knows it is there - what does that have to do with ESPN? I'll answer for you - zero.

To lead you to the answer to my other point since you have your blinders on and won't admit what is wrong, I'll give you a related subject matter. How popular do you think the Tour De France will be now?

 

[Black-Balled]

... How popular do you think the Tour De France will be now?

Big as ever, baby! Just not here is the USA.

 

[CJ Wiley]

how many rooms are doing that these days??? ....did I hear ZERO?

You said the major reason for the decline in pool is the lack of promotion when a tournament comes to town and no one even knows it is there - what does that have to do with ESPN? I'll answer for you - zero.

To lead you to the answer to my other point since you have your blinders on and won't admit what is wrong, I'll give you a related subject matter. How popular do you think the Tour De France will be now?

I ran 4 commercials a night on ESPN for many years when I had CJ's Billiard Palace and it did make a difference. I consistenly did over 10k at the door and had crowds of up to 800 people (total) on my biggest day.

If you need proof of what I'm saying, here's some of the actual commercials I used: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=CJ+wiley&page=2 Scoll down and you'll see several that I used to promote my Pool Room, Pro Players and Tournaments that were coming to town......how many rooms are doing that these days??? ....did I hear ZERO?

As far as the Tour de France, I've never watched it and I guess you're talking about Lance Armstrong in some reference. Are there pool players on steroids? Alex, Shane or maybe Darren A.? I'm not sure about that one.