John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

sfleinen said:
CJ:

I agree with the bolded parts, but with one proviso -- not all of us aim "center to edge." As you know, there's a "system" in snooker called Back-of-Ball aiming, where you treat the balls as if they are flat discs.

Although I am a student of this game and open to all knowledge -- including studying Stan's DVD (just today, in fact, I popped it in and reviewed) -- I can confidently tell you that Back-of-Ball aiming in no way/shape/fashion resembles or uses the same aim lines as CTE or Pro/1.

For example, in back-of-ball aiming, you do *NOT* look at "center to edge." Rather, it's a fractional "eclipsing" system, where the edge of the cue ball "connects" or "cuts through" a fraction of the object ball, and vise-versa with the object ball -- that object ball's edge "connects" or "cuts through" a fraction of the cue ball. The beauty about this system is that the visuals, once the foundation is built, is AUTOMATIC -- you see them, you get down on them, and you shoot directly *at* them. No pivoting.

Back-of-Ball aiming does require "homework" on the part of the student -- that he/she commit to memory some common ball-to-ball angle relationships. I.e.: 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 7/8, and "thin" cuts. This is necessary to have a foundation to build on, as the subconscious mind "knows" the adjustments to these foundational ball-to-ball relationships to "finish" the shot.



I think what you're trying to say, CJ, is that in order to play at the top levels, you *have* to be playing from the subconscious. You *CANNOT* have the conscious mind engaged where you're saying things like "this is a half-ball hit, but because of throw, I have to cut just a hair more." Or, "I have my two aim lines -- CTEL and OBA -- and I'm going to come down and Pro/1-pivot into the shot." Thinking like this is a recipe for disaster -- i.e. programming yourself for a MISS.

I think *all of you* -- naysayers and yeahsayers -- are thinking WRONG. That word -- thinking [about aiming] -- is what's keeping this Hatfield and McCoys feud going. And that's all that "thinking" is good for.

-Sean
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I don't believe everyone has to use the center, the edge or the contact points as a rule....I do believe they must connect the cue ball to the object ball in some relative manner.....quarters, eighths, center to edge, edge to center, quarter to a quarter etc, or some kind of eclipse system which is still a fraction at a fraction..... I just prefer to aim ABOVE the shot and then use the center to aim once I"m down....because using the center gives me the most feel and at that point I think you can aim whatever part of the cue ball you want.......when lining up with my body I use the edge of the cue ball.....the same side as the direction I'm cutting the ball...thus I use 2 lines.....one for my body and one for my eyes.....and they both connect to the object ball in a place to create the desired "cut" or angle.
 
Do you use the contact point on the OB that send it to the pocket/target as part of your aiming? We know that if we can contact the contact point on the OB with the contact point on thee CB, then we will send the OB to the pocket/target.

This can be done by aiming the edge of the CB as you say at another point on the OB, say double the distance away from the contact point on the OB to it's edge.

The other line of aim would be with the cue aimed at the center of the CB and parallel to the sight line from the edge of the CB as above.

Many here know and agree with this and perhaps is what you are posting.

Thanks.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
I don't believe everyone has to use the center, the edge or the contact points as a rule....I do believe they must connect the cue ball to the object ball in some relative manner.....quarters, eighths, center to edge, edge to center, quarter to a quarter etc, or some kind of eclipse system which is still a fraction at a fraction..... I just prefer to aim ABOVE the shot and then use the center to aim once I"m down....because using the center gives me the most feel and at that point I think you can aim whatever part of the cue ball you want.......when lining up with my body I use the edge of the cue ball.....the same side as the direction I'm cutting the ball...thus I use 2 lines.....one for my body and one for my eyes.....and they both connect to the object ball in a place to create the desired "cut" or angle.
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Well described-
As usual ( :-) ) very well written posting.

lg
Ingo
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
It sounds like John has some personal issues with aiming systems... and while I agree with him that it takes MUCH MORE than an aiming system to be a great player I DO NOT think he was talking in a logical mode in this transcript....I mean, really, "you could put a bag over Stevie's head and he will still run out"..???..I'm more than skeptical of that and...."he could aim at the wall and still make the ball"......and "if aiming systems worked there would be like 4 Million people that would play like Corey".....I know this was all said in some kind of hyped up emphatic mode, but in that case I wonder why anything else should be taken seriously?

The fact of the matter is EVERYONE has a system for seeing the connection between the cue ball and the object ball to create the desired angle....and this is especially true with spin or deflection involved, the issue is they're simply not aware of what it is.....this sounds strange, but I was one of those players in my teens and early 20's....it wasn't until I was the ESPN World Champion that truly set out to discover EXACTLY what I did when I entered what most people call DEAD STROKE ... and in the process my game had some ups and downs because when you bring conscious attention to a subconscious activity something has to give.....and it's usually in the form of suddenly over thinking......it's like walking up or down stairs, you can do it very quickly and very naturally, but let someone ask you to explain "do you breathe in or out on the even or odd stairs?"..."do you roll your ankle or just pick your foot straight up"....and see what happens.....it's like when I tell you "don't think about your breathing now"...or "DO NOT think about the color BLUE or your RiGhT shoulder as you read this" ... I've spent a lot of time around Tiger Wood's recent swing coach (HANK HANEY) here in Dallas and I'll assure you Tiger has a system for golf....every aspect of it and "does he tune this out when playing?"....the answer is YES.....but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a system for aligning to the shot, aiming his club face, positioning his shoulders, arms, legs etc. through the positioning of his feet.....I assure you he does ALL THESE THINGS in a certain, repeatable fashion....in other words he has a system!

Stan showed me parts of his system in Tunica and I agree that it works...I also believe that it's a chore to convince people of this and it's better not to try....in addition, I do agree with John S. about hitting a lot of balls and practicing, but ONLY if your practice is based around a consistent, repeatable pre-shot routine that takes the WHOLE body, vision and mind into consideration.....I just rebuilt my game it's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle at times....I would find one piece that was out of whack and then another one would cause me to not play well....it's like building any structure, it starts with the FOUNDATION and works it's way up....if your body is not in line your eyes,you are not seeing the correct shot perception and you have to move your head to make up for it...this may work at times...especially good times, however, what about under pressure?....when it really counts....what about in the finals of a tournament, or your league or a big gambling match.....that's when it matters and you can see it when Michael Jordan shoots free throws, when Ben Hogan hits a golf ball, or when Mike Sigel hits a pool ball....they are ALWAYS in the same position, relative to the line of their shot....and it's because they have developed a system to do this time after time after time...... It was also said "anyone out there with their aiming systems can get weight" ....hmmm, I wonder if that's really true? CJ Wiley www.cjwiley.com https://www.facebook.com/CJ.WILEY7
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Kudos,

hits the nail 100% - i have a little hope, that if a fantastic player like CJ writes these very true words, that some people perhaps start to think and believe on his points. Sometimes it helps a lot if *a known person with a very high reputation* says the same things, where other guys also would use it....but never would get heard :D

Great posting!

lg
Ingo
 
Can't wait

cjssecrets4u2 said:
I don't believe everyone has to use the center, the edge or the contact points as a rule....I do believe they must connect the cue ball to the object ball in some relative manner.....quarters, eighths, center to edge, edge to center, quarter to a quarter etc, or some kind of eclipse system which is still a fraction at a fraction..... I just prefer to aim ABOVE the shot and then use the center to aim once I"m down....because using the center gives me the most feel and at that point I think you can aim whatever part of the cue ball you want.......when lining up with my body I use the edge of the cue ball.....the same side as the direction I'm cutting the ball...thus I use 2 lines.....one for my body and one for my eyes.....and they both connect to the object ball in a place to create the desired "cut" or angle.
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Can't wait for your next book. Please empty that brilliant pool mind to us
 
Ratta said:
Kudos,

hits the nail 100% - i have a little hope, that if a fantastic player like CJ writes these very true words, that some people perhaps start to think and believe on his points. Sometimes it helps a lot if *a known person with a very high reputation* says the same things, where other guys also would use it....but never would get heard :D

Great posting!

lg
Ingo
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Actually, this shows the problem where people are more concerned about who says what more than what is said regardless of the who. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.

It is a slap in the face to the little guy who has been saying something for a long time only to become valid when a "known" person gets on the bandwagon.
 
duckie said:
Actually, this shows the problem where people are more concerned about who says what more than what is said regardless of the who. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.

It is a slap in the face to the little guy who has been saying something for a long time only to become valid when a "known" person gets on the bandwagon.
Click to expand...

Are you implying you've been saying the same thing as CJ all along????
 
duckie said:
Actually, this shows the problem where people are more concerned about who says what more than what is said regardless of the who. The truth is the truth no matter who says it.

It is a slap in the face to the little guy who has been saying something for a long time only to become valid when a "known" person gets on the bandwagon.
Click to expand...

Duckie,

One day you will uncover the truth that most people find you annoying. Not because of what you say. Your content is pretty good most of the time. It's how you say it.

Like Dale Carnegie said..."you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar".


Good luck on your quest to be understood..
 
Hungarian said:
Duckie,

One day you will uncover the truth that most people find you annoying. Not because of what you say. Your content is pretty good most of the time. It's how you say it.

Like Dale Carnegie said..."you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar".


Good luck on your quest to be understood..
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So now we posters are flies?:smile:
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
I don't believe everyone has to use the center, the edge or the contact points as a rule....I do believe they must connect the cue ball to the object ball in some relative manner.....quarters, eighths, center to edge, edge to center, quarter to a quarter etc, or some kind of eclipse system which is still a fraction at a fraction..... I just prefer to aim ABOVE the shot and then use the center to aim once I"m down....because using the center gives me the most feel and at that point I think you can aim whatever part of the cue ball you want.......when lining up with my body I use the edge of the cue ball.....the same side as the direction I'm cutting the ball...thus I use 2 lines.....one for my body and one for my eyes.....and they both connect to the object ball in a place to create the desired "cut" or angle.
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I think a lot of people here would appreciate if you would further explain how you aim with those two lines, where exactly is your body aligned with inner OB edge, how you do it for different cuts, where is your dominant eye, etc.

Please, if you would be so kind, I would really like to hear it out of a pro like you.

Thanks in advance!
 
Mirza said:
I think a lot of people here would appreciate if you would further explain how you aim with those two lines, where exactly is your body aligned with inner OB edge, how you do it for different cuts, where is your dominant eye, etc.

Please, if you would be so kind, I would really like to hear it out of a pro like you.

Thanks in advance!
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This is almost impossible without graphics and visual diagrams .... my aiming system is on my third volume of the ultimate pool secrets , but I'm adding my Alignment System to the new advanced series I'm working on now..... I use the edges on the Cue Ball to align my feet and the center of the cue ball for my visual point ...I don't know all about the CTE system, but it appears that they are doing something like I am, just "inverted"....in other words I use sections of the cue ball to aim at either the center or edge of the object ball.... my theory has always been if I'm going to use specific spots it's easier and more precise to use them on the cue ball because I'm almost always the same distance from it (I make it a point to be the same distance to create the same "visual perceptive").......the object ball can be from a inch to 9 ft. away, so I just use two "relative spots" and I prefer the center (for angles less than half ball) or the edge (for angles thinner than a half ball) ..... as far as "dominant eye" info. I'd recommend you listen to Stan Shuffett's opinions about this,(he gave me some very good input on how I was getting down when I saw him in Tunica, and it was about the relationship of my eye with my cue, not the CB/OB) I teach people how to allow this naturally.....I think you should try to face the shot as much as possible and naturally so you can see a straight line between the balls.....I hesitate to give suggestions about how the dominant eye works because that's one thing I never thought I should tamper with (there's a risk of really getting messed up if you don't completely understand this phenomena) ....and from my experience everyone does it differently according to their personal perception preference.....the 3p's. I will go over all of these things in more detail on my DVD, and as I said, it's essential to have visual graphics to help explain.
 
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cjssecrets4u2 said:
This is almost impossible without graphics and visual diagrams .... my aiming system is on my third volume of the ultimate pool secrets , but I'm adding my Alignment System to the new advanced series I'm working on now..... I use the edges on the Cue Ball to align my feet and the center of the cue ball for my visual point ...I don't know all about the CTE system, but it appears that they are doing something like I am, just "inverted"....in other words I use sections of the cue ball to aim at either the center or edge of the object ball.... my theory has always been if I'm going to use specific spots it's easier and more precise to use them on the cue ball because I'm almost always the same distance from it (I make it a point to be the same distance to create the same "visual perceptive").......the object ball can be from a inch to 9 ft. away, so I just use two "relative spots" and I prefer the center (for angles less than half ball) or the edge (for angles thinner than a half ball) ..... as far as "dominant eye" info. I'd recommend you listen to Stan Shuffett's opinions about this,(he gave me some very good input on how I was getting down when I saw him in Tunica, and it was about the relationship of my eye with my cue, not the CB/OB) I teach people how to allow this naturally.....I think you should try to face the shot as much as possible and naturally so you can see a straight line between the balls.....I hesitate to give suggestions about how the dominant eye works because that's one thing I never thought I should tamper with (there's a risk of really getting messed up if you don't completely understand this phenomena) ....and from my experience everyone does it differently according to their personal perception preference.....the 3p's. I will go over all of these things in more detail on my DVD, and as I said, it's essential to have visual graphics to help explain.
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I like it - fractions on the CB aimed at the center or edge of the OB. I can reverse engineer this, but you will be releasing your diagrams in a future DVD?

Thanks:thumbup:
 
Cj, aiming

Hey CJ
sounds as if two "crazy poolaholics" have the crazy "one approach" to the game! Eye, cue, alignments, foot position...
Sounds 1:1 (at least very close -the fractional part at the CB is a little different) like the new SEE-SYSTEM.

@ CJ: I have sent you a personal message.
I would appreciate an answer of your's! Thank you!

Your blog is a great PLUS for this forum!
 
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Yeah Lamas :)

That s why i enjoy CJ s post so much, too- he has an amazing talent/skill to describe his point of views-and also to explain his thoughts. That s not easy as it seems. In my opinion that s the greatest god given thing, you could have to be a GREAT teacher and instructor.

@CJ : looking forward for your new texts :-)
(hope they ll make their way to germany then finally :p "insider" )

lg
Ingo
 
Ratta said:
Yeah Lamas :)

That s why i enjoy CJ s post so much, too- he has an amazing talent/skill to describe his point of views-and also to explain his thoughts. That s not easy as it seems. In my opinion that s the greatest god given thing, you could have to be a GREAT teacher and instructor.

@CJ : looking forward for your new texts :-)
(hope they ll make their way to germany then finally :p "insider" )

lg
Ingo
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I appreciate that and I think you'll like some of the things I've been working on....there's so much to this game and in a way I'm kind of glad I had to go through all the torture it takes to rebuild my game again....I sure appreciate it more now...before I had played so much under pressure I just took it for granted as far as the level of play I could maintain....now, after going over all the different "pieces to the puzzle" I have a new found respect for the game....it's a perfect game, and incredibly challenging to understand and uncover that perfection.....but what's life without a challenge ..... Aloha
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This is almost impossible without graphics and visual diagrams .... my aiming system is on my third volume of the ultimate pool secrets , but I'm adding my Alignment System to the new advanced series I'm working on now..... I use the edges on the Cue Ball to align my feet and the center of the cue ball for my visual point ...I don't know all about the CTE system, but it appears that they are doing something like I am, just "inverted"....in other words I use sections of the cue ball to aim at either the center or edge of the object ball.... my theory has always been if I'm going to use specific spots it's easier and more precise to use them on the cue ball because I'm almost always the same distance from it (I make it a point to be the same distance to create the same "visual perceptive").......the object ball can be from a inch to 9 ft. away, so I just use two "relative spots" and I prefer the center (for angles less than half ball) or the edge (for angles thinner than a half ball) ..... as far as "dominant eye" info. I'd recommend you listen to Stan Shuffett's opinions about this,(he gave me some very good input on how I was getting down when I saw him in Tunica, and it was about the relationship of my eye with my cue, not the CB/OB) I teach people how to allow this naturally.....I think you should try to face the shot as much as possible and naturally so you can see a straight line between the balls.....I hesitate to give suggestions about how the dominant eye works because that's one thing I never thought I should tamper with (there's a risk of really getting messed up if you don't completely understand this phenomena) ....and from my experience everyone does it differently according to their personal perception preference.....the 3p's. I will go over all of these things in more detail on my DVD, and as I said, it's essential to have visual graphics to help explain.
Click to expand...

That sounds very interesting, but of course is hard to grasp without graphics, pictures...

Are you willing to make one and share it here?....just asking :)

Best regards!
 
Mirza said:
That sounds very interesting, but of course is hard to grasp without graphics, pictures...

Are you willing to make one and share it here?....just asking :)

Best regards!
Click to expand...

I'm working on it this week...the trouble is I'm getting ready to play in the Texas State Championship next week and if I get too analytical it is sure to make playing tougher than it already is.....the one thing about the aiming system in particular is once you learn it and "make it yours" you must turn up your feel and turn down your vision....because visually you are just trying to make a solid connection between the OB and the CB, and then the game's 90% feel from that point on....too much thought makes this very difficult....that's why pro players are very careful not to discuss these type systems....it just makes it a challenge to go into "the zone".
 
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cjssecrets4u2 said:
I'm working on it this week...the trouble is I'm getting ready to play in the Texas State Championship next week and if I get to analytical it is sure to make playing tougher than it already is.....the one thing about the aiming system in particular is once you learn it and "make it yours" you must turn up your feel and turn down your vision....because visually you are just trying to make a solid connection between the OB and the CB, and then the game's 90% feel from that point on....too much thought makes this very difficult....that's why pro players are very careful not to discuss these type systems....it just makes it a challenge to go into "the zone".
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Well said.

Roger
 
I use sections of the cue ball to aim at either the center or edge of the object ball.... my theory has always been if I'm going to use specific spots it's easier and more precise to use them on the cue ball because I'm almost always the same distance from it (I make it a point to be the same distance to create the same "visual perceptive").......
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Thank you so much. A player consistent in their [body] distance to the cue ball and consistent with feet and hands is set to deliver not only a repeatable stroke but is aligned for easy aim.

Every student wants to draw the ball further or break harder, but those and many other things come from having the feet and thus the body and arms the right distance to aim from up high, then get into the stance and stroke.

For many players, once the high stance or full [low] stance is in place, slight adjustments with the eyes (and not the hands and stick) bring the ball to the wide part of the pocket before the stroke is taken. Even a player who pivots their stick and not the body has to commit to holding still and looking at the shot... that's the 90% feel you are speaking about, in my understanding.
 
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