John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[CJ Wiley]

"No Spin to Win"

I'm not so sure.


But if you undercut slightly or use a bit too little spin, then you miss the shot. Ignoring half the possible errors doesn't eliminate them or increase your margin of error.

pj
chgo

I, personally don't use "spin" to accomplish what I'm speaking of....I use deflection ....there's a major difference imho

 

[CJ Wiley]

Empty your cup to learn new things

I am glad you are here, this is a serious question because I have sucked for so long and the only time I have seen the little improvements is when I have tried to be "perfect" long frequent practice sessions, long hours of study away from the table, leagues, tournaments, road trips, teaching others, gambling, fishing(I know that's not really helpful), self video and even thinking about pool to fall asleap at night. how/when do you know what that point is and is it possible that no matter how much practice, compeditive play and knowledge you do/attain that there are some people that will never reach "that point?"

You can get better at any time....but sometimes you have to forget everything you've been told to do it....I assure you that some of the things that are commonly taught and believed are not correct in the "real world" of championship pool.....have you ever wondered why there aren't many pros talking about this stuff.....the information is being withheld, but NOT ON PURPOSE.....it's just too much trouble for most pros to try to explain something that makes sense to them, but not to the average player...it's frustrating.....I do it because I like the challenge, but it won't be for that long....when I start back playing seriously I won't talk much about it on here either.....it's just too difficult to conscously talk about something that is usually learned at the unconscious level....I think you know I'm leveling with you....I'm making some high level DVD's right now and this is just good practice for me to be on top of my "teaching game"....I take it seriously

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I, personally don't use "spin" to accomplish what I'm speaking of....I use deflection ....there's a major difference imho

CJ, are we both talking about cue ball deflection (sometimes known as "squirt")? Or do you mean something different?

By the way, it's a pleasure to have you here whether we have the same view of these things or not. Hope you don't mind a little back and forth to clarify your message.

pj
chgo

 

[Living Legend]

You can get better at any time....but sometimes you have to forget everything you've been told to do it....I assure you that some of the things that are commonly taught and believed are not correct in the "real world" of championship pool.....have you ever wondered why there aren't many pros talking about this stuff.....the information is being withheld, but NOT ON PURPOSE.....it's just too much trouble for most pros to try to explain something that makes sense to them, but not to the average player...it's frustrating.....I do it because I like the challenge, but it won't be for that long....when I start back playing seriously I won't talk much about it on here either.....it's just too difficult to conscously talk about something that is usually learned at the unconscious level....I think you know I'm leveling with you....I'm making some high level DVD's right now and this is just good practice for me to be on top of my "teaching game"....I take it seriously

very good post ... anyone who has played any sport at a high level will understand this.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Don't end up in a BAD GAME

CJ, are we both talking about cue ball deflection (sometimes known as "squirt")? Or do you mean something different?

By the way, it's a pleasure to have you here whether we have the same view of these things or not. Hope you don't mind a little back and forth to clarify your message.

pj
chgo

yes, squirt/deflection/veering/ ....whether you know it or not it happens....maybe that's why you're missing shots ....maybe not...but really, how would you know? .... I assure you I KNOW...and if we played I would be able to tell if you were doing it too...and if you weren't adjusting for it you would be "in a bad game" LoL ....touche'??? :thumbup:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

yes, squirt/deflection/veering/ ....whether you know it or not it happens....maybe that's why you're missing shots ....maybe not...but really, how would you know? .... I assure you I KNOW...and if we played I would be able to tell if you were doing it too...and if you weren't adjusting for it you would be "in a bad game" LoL ....touche'??? :thumbup:

I think if he played you he'd be in a bad game anyways - adjustment or not (PJ - I'm picking - I'd get run over too)

CJ-- I use your method to compensate for throw -- aiming to kind of miss the pocket on the thin side which gives me the entire pocket to play with. If it doesn't throw a lot I make it-- if it throws a ton I make it.

In regards to the squirt/deflection, Ron Vitello (a great instructor out of NYC) is coming out with a DVD soon that covers a technique very similar to what you describe. I actually align the CB edge / OB edge or edge/center and use the deflection to pocket the ball.

I can not hit perfect center 100% of the time --- and I can hit perfect center, well, um...sometimes.

I think when some of the posters try what you're saying at the table before engaging in back-and-forths --- you'll have a different audience.

You might want to go in more details and give a particular setup/cut-angle and explain how you align and where your tip placement is before your final stroke.

I think if you DO eliminate 1/2 of the errors (from a particular direction), diagnosing the problem can start from a "baseline" if that makes sense.

 

[Jal]

....if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket...

I appreciate the response but I'm still not sure what you're saying. In the first part of the above statement, you use the terms "off center" and "throw" and "deflection" and it's not clear (to me) what variable/error you're potentially compensating for.

Say you're cutting a ball to the left. Which side of the pocket do you aim at (bias the pocket), and do you use a touch of inside (left) or outside (right) english? Are you doing this to compensate for possible variations/estimation errors for throw (ball-ball friction), or squirt (I think this is what you mean by "deflection" but I'm not sure), or swerve (i.e., the curved path of the cueball), or a combination of some or all of the above?

Or, is the biasing there because the cue's alignment might be unintentionally parallel shifted off of centerball (i.e., you may have its direction right but could be inadvertently applying english), or the cue's direction may be off as well due to a stroking glitch (i.e., swoop)?

That's a mouthful of questions (sorry). I'm asking because I was gearing up to do some graphs of the cueball's path (intended and unintended) to see if the biasing you're describing does help, but then realized the plethora of possibilities outlined above. Any further clarification would be welcomed.

....I see I'm essentially repeating Dave's request above.

Jim

 

[ronscuba]

I'm a technical person who likes to understand the how's, why's and science behind things.

As a new pool player I am finding sometimes it is best to just try something and observe what happens. Spend less time thinking about the science and just accept the results and use the technique. The scientist in me wants to know why, the pool player in me just cares if the ball goes in and I get position.

I constantly need to balance the 2, but this is part of why I enjoy pool.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think if he played you he'd be in a bad game anyways - adjustment or not (PJ - I'm picking - I'd get run over too)

Don't worry, I have no illusions about beating CJ - but I'd enjoy the hell out of getting slapped around by him.

I think if you DO eliminate 1/2 of the errors (from a particular direction), diagnosing the problem can start from a "baseline" if that makes sense.

Choosing one side of the cue ball to hit doesn't eliminate errors in the other direction - it changes them from "left vs. right" to
"more left vs. less left", which might actually make it a little harder to tell whether you've erred to the left or the right. Maybe it helps with diagnosing another kind of error; I don't know.

And unless I'm missing something, it doesn't reduce the number of possible errors or increase the margin for error; it just shifts the whole calculation to the right or left. In my mind that's like aiming to hit the cue ball in the center but shifting the pocket right or left - you can see that wouldn't be helpful, right?

Hopefully CJ will tough it out here long enough so we can eventually understand each other.

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

Aiming a rifle has nothing in common with aiming a shot in pool.

First, a rifle has a rear sight, a front sight, and there is a target. You can touch these. You can feel these. I've yet to touch or feel any form of sights on a cue and there is no "Hit here" sign on the OB either.

Second, there are times in aiming a rifle, the muzzle is not pointed to where you want to hit. Distance and wind come into play when aiming a rifle also the weight of the bullet and the load of the round.

You may the same type of breathing methods used in shooting in making a shot in pool, but that's it.

I get so tired of the ole golf and pool comparisons. Two different sports with two different goals. A drive in golf has nothing to do with a pool shot. IF anything, putting is closer to shot making in pool, trying to get a ball in the hole the first time.

Thing is, in golf, you got one ball and one hole at a time, plus you do not have to get shape for your next tee shot. Ain't so in pool. You have to use the CB to make a OB and then get position for the next shot. Ain't nothing in playing golf that equals this.

There is nothing a player can do to increase a shots margin of error. To imply otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the geometry of a shot. A shots margin of error is determined by the pocket opening, OB distance from the pocket and OB angle into the pocket. How much of this area that can be used is determined by the OB/CB angle.

As for hitting center pocket- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272971

And just food for thought http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272973

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Aiming a rifle has nothing in common with aiming a shot in pool.

First, a rifle has a rear sight, a front sight, and there is a target. You can touch these. You can feel these. I've yet to touch or feel any form of sights on a cue and there is no "Hit here" sign on the OB either.

Second, there are times in aiming a rifle, the muzzle is not pointed to where you want to hit. Distance and wind come into play when aiming a rifle also the weight of the bullet and the load of the round.

You may the same type of breathing methods used in shooting in making a shot in pool, but that's it.

I get so tired of the ole golf and pool comparisons. Two different sports with two different goals. A drive in golf has nothing to do with a pool shot. IF anything, putting is closer to shot making in pool, trying to get a ball in the hole the first time.

Thing is, in golf, you got one ball and one hole at a time, plus you do not have to get shape for your next tee shot. Ain't so in pool. You have to use the CB to make a OB and then get position for the next shot. Ain't nothing in playing golf that equals this.

There is nothing a player can do to increase a shots margin of error. To imply otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the geometry of a shot. A shots margin of error is determined by the pocket opening, OB distance from the pocket and OB angle into the pocket. How much of this area that can be used is determined by the OB/CB angle.

As for hitting center pocket- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272971

And just food for thought http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272973

Here, everyone, you have a guy who is like an APA 4 or 5 knocking CJ's golf analogies.

DUCKIE>>>>> YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW SO STOP WRITING THESE MATTER-OF-FACT POSTS ON STUFF YOU DON'T KNOW. Everyone here is having a nice peaceful conversation with a CHAMPION trying to understand his technique and philosophies.

Jesus, having someone like you come over the top of CJ Frickin' Wiley like you know something he doesn't is like watching a deer die. Scram.

Can't wait to see Duckie play on ESPN and come out with his Secret of Pool DVD *puke*

P.S. You CAN increase margin of errors on shots. It's for you to figure that out over time, as you progress well beyond your current level of play.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Don't worry, I have no illusions about beating CJ - but I'd enjoy the hell out of getting slapped around by him.


Choosing one side of the cue ball to hit doesn't eliminate errors in the other direction - it changes them from "left vs. right" to
"more left vs. less left", which might actually make it a little harder to tell whether you've erred to the left or the right. Maybe it helps with diagnosing another kind of error; I don't know.

And unless I'm missing something, it doesn't reduce the number of possible errors or increase the margin for error; it just shifts the whole calculation to the right or left. In my mind that's like aiming to hit the cue ball in the center but shifting the pocket right or left - you can see that wouldn't be helpful, right?

Hopefully CJ will tough it out here long enough so we can eventually understand each other.

pj
chgo

I believe I know what he's doing but I don't want to step on his toes and allow him to speak.... unlike Duck's interjections.

 

[8pack]

"they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)"

Yes, you are reading it incorrectily...I'm saying that the balls are being deflected/thrown in EXCEPT on straight in shots OR while slow rolling.

And the other comment is correct if you want to play with the "game telling you what to do"...I'm suggesting there's a better way....a way where YOU tell the game what to do....thus, being in more control of the outcome.

I think all players will come to the agreement to run a table you will always find yourself thick or thin of the aiming line ,center ball hit just wont get it done so you are spinning or deflecting the ball alot during the game.(nothing new)But there are times center ball hit is required on a lot of shots.
(I'm suggesting there's a better way)I address the shot as needed ,shape may require me to come thick on the ball, maybe thin on the ball,maybe rite at the ghostball just depends.

Help me out here ,what is it im doing wrong if you thinks theres a better way?

 

[LAMas]

I, personally don't use "spin" to accomplish what I'm speaking of....I use deflection ....there's a major difference imho

In another thread, I was looking at the pros shoot from above from/in a Sky box.

For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT.

Their aiming seems unconscious (they see the line to the pocket) and with more attention to the application of english and compensating for shaft deflection.

Thank.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In another thread, I was looking at the pros shoot from above from/in a Sky box.

For slight thick cuts (almost straight in), it looks like the are using a little english, but it appears that they are using the shaft deflection to effect the shot, and at other times, they are using english to effect CIT.

Their aiming seems unconscious (they see the line to the pocket) and with more attention to the application of english and compensating for shaft deflection.

Thank.

Regarding the part in blue above: how can you possibly guess whether they're trying to use shaft deflection or english to affect the shot? (And, by the way, how does "shaft deflection" affect the shot?)

pj
chgo

 

[sfleinen]

Here, everyone, you have a guy who is like an APA 4 or 5 knocking CJ's golf analogies.

DUCKIE>>>>> YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW SO STOP WRITING THESE MATTER-OF-FACT POSTS ON STUFF YOU DON'T KNOW. Everyone here is having a nice peaceful conversation with a CHAMPION trying to understand his technique and philosophies.

Jesus, having someone like you come over the top of CJ Frickin' Wiley like you know something he doesn't is like watching a deer die. Scram.

Can't wait to see Duckie play on ESPN and come out with his Secret of Pool DVD *puke*

P.S. You CAN increase margin of errors on shots. It's for you to figure that out over time, as you progress well beyond your current level of play.

LMAO!! I can't stop laughing.

Care to take bets on the phraseology he'll use in his f-u reply? "Go suck an egg"? "Go pound sand"? Other variation?


-Sean

 

[The Renfro]

Sean you do realize Duck likely doesn't know who CJ is or anyone other pro player for that matter except for the Cranfield guy he got the Arrow from in the 1951 Almanac...

 

[Shaky1]

I'm trying to figure out how you use deflection without side spin?
Doesn't one cause the other? Or do you mean cut induced throw when you say deflection?

 

[The Renfro]

A little inside goes a long way to deflecting the cue ball without generating much english... By the time of contact even if the english remains on the cue ball if it is inside it gets wiped out by the spin cause by going across the face of the object ball so you get center ball paths instead of inside english paths......

 

[SpiderWebComm]

LMAO!! I can't stop laughing.

Care to take bets on the phraseology he'll use in his f-u reply? "Go suck an egg"? "Go pound sand"? Other variation?


-Sean

I hate saying those things but it is what it is. He was implying CJ doesn't understand pool geometry. Makes my eyes bleed reading that crap.

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