John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

dr_dave said:
I personally think CJ's message is clear and simple and easy to express in words. How does this sound:

When English isn't required for CB positioning or throw, aim to undercut shots by half a pocket (by targeting the point of the pocket on the undercut side) and use a small amount of inside English to create squirt (and overcut) back to the pocket's center.​

This will work well for some people, and it might not for others. The success will depend on accuracy of the off-center aim, exact amount of English, shot speed, cloth conditions, distance between the CB and OB, distance between the OB and pocket, pocket size, and shaft endmass (which determines the amount of squirt the cue creates). Some people don't care about these details and can still get the system to work in all situations. Other people like to understand how and why a system actually works and want to know when it might not work (without adjustment, either consciously or by feel).

Regards,
Dave
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This sounds ok but I believe that some of the success of this system is due to a certain amount of skill that beginning and intermediate players may not yet possess.

That doesn't mean that the technique isn't valid. In this particular case, it just means that the student isn't ready for the teacher just yet.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
The ball must be hit with an accelerating stroke or you will put spin on it....I CUE IT a hair off center, but I DO NOT SPIN IT...
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Just to pick a nit: I can't imagine what kind of "accelerating" stroke can prevent the CB from spinning when it's hit off center. I believe that's physically impossible.

On the other hand, I don't think a little spin on the CB makes much difference for the aiming part of this technique.

pj
chgo
 
dr_dave said:
Do you guys think the following sentence describe's CJ's system accurately?
When English isn't required for CB positioning or throw, aim to undercut shots by half a pocket (by targeting the point of the pocket on the undercut side) and use a small amount of inside English to create squirt (and overcut) back to the pocket's center.​

Thanks,
Dave
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I think that's pretty close but you won't aim it to undercut it to the point where you are aiming a miss...you undercut it to hit it as thick as possible and still make the ball... That way if you actually hit where you aim, it goes, and if you don't, you have a huge margin of error to still make it by.... If aiming at the point of the pocket would miss the ball like it does on some angles you would aim inside of it......
 
I knew what CJ was describing instantly. It's shocking how educated adults are lost after almost 20 pages of discussion on the topic.

As Legend said, I half wonder if PJ knew what he was saying during our last back-and-forth. PJ, if you want to setup a video conference, I'll stream some live video and give you an internet lesson so you're up to speed.
 
The Renfro said:
I think that's pretty close but you won't aim it to undercut it to the point where you are aiming a miss...you undercut it to hit it as thick as possible and still make the ball... That way if you actually hit where you aim, it goes, and if you don't, you have a huge margin of error to still make it by.... If aiming at the point of the pocket would miss the ball like it does on some angles you would aim inside of it......
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I think there's a "style" component to this. Aggressive vs passive. For me, I found the best approach was aggressive--- I aim for the complete miss, 1-ball outside the pocket (the inside edge of the CB is aligned with the outside edge of the pocket) and play from there.

CJ--- how aggressive are you with your initial alignment?
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I think there's a "style" component to this. Aggressive vs passive. For me, I found the best approach was aggressive--- I aim for the complete miss, 1-ball outside the pocket (the inside edge of the CB is aligned with the outside edge of the pocket) and play from there.

CJ--- how aggressive are you with your initial alignment?
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That would be something I would like to hear as well... I can see where you could consider our differences as being in level of aggression.............
 
JoeyA said:
This sounds ok but I believe that some of the success of this system is due to a certain amount of skill that beginning and intermediate players may not yet possess.

That doesn't mean that the technique isn't valid. In this particular case, it just means that the student isn't ready for the teacher just yet.
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To a point, I agree with you here. First and foremost, the shooter HAS to have the skill to reliably aim the shot to the correct part of the pocket, and make it there using center ball consistently. If they can't do that, this system won't help them much. A little, but not much. Second, the whole purpose of the system is to alleviate problems with squirt of the cb.

CJ's point is just to make it squirt the same direction each time. There are valid points to that. This works best for high deflection cues. For low deflection cues, or using BHE, you don't have near as big a problem to start with to where you would really benefit from his system.

For me, with my cue, (LD shaft), I don't have a problem with having to allow for squirt on better than 90% of my shots. I'm more a proponent of learning to hit center ball consistently, instead of saying it's too hard because you prefer to use a long bridge with a long stroke instead of something more accurate.

For some, with the style of play that they choose, this can really help them pocket more balls. For others, it's not necessary at all, and can actually hinder ones game by not utilizing all of the cb for position play.

If it works for you, great! But to say that it is the "right" way to play is in my opinion, misleading, and shows a lack of knowledge in what is actually going on, and how to correct problems. It's a great pill to take to cure the side effects of another pill you are already taking. Or, you can get rid of the pills altogether by just correcting the underlying problem.
 
The Renfro said:
dr_dave said:
Do you guys think the following sentence describe's CJ's system accurately?
When English isn't required for CB positioning or throw, aim to undercut shots by half a pocket (by targeting the point of the pocket on the undercut side) and use a small amount of inside English to create squirt (and overcut) back to the pocket's center.​
Click to expand...
I think that's pretty close but you won't aim it to undercut it to the point where you are aiming a miss...you undercut it to hit it as thick as possible and still make the ball... That way if you actually hit where you aim, it goes, and if you don't, you have a huge margin of error to still make it by.... If aiming at the point of the pocket would miss the ball like it does on some angles you would aim inside of it......
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Sounds good to me.

People might not agree on whether or not the system is beneficial to all people (either theoretically or in practice at the table), but we at least now have an accurate description of the system (I think).

Regards,
Dave
 
No Spin or everything does not work properly

dr_dave said:
Do you guys think the following sentence describe's CJ's system accurately?
When English isn't required for CB positioning or throw, aim to undercut shots by half a pocket (by targeting the point of the pocket on the undercut side) and use a small amount of inside English to create squirt (and overcut) back to the pocket's center.​

Thanks,
Dave
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How many times do I have to say "you don't use English"....can anyone go back and count how many? LoL ...this is getting comical :dance:
 
Creating Positive Change even if there's some kicking and screaming LoL

West Point 1987 said:
Check this out...I might be seeing things, but it seems like Efren is using a little inside on nearly all his cut shots. I could be seeing things, but watch the cue ball after contact. Lots of kill and evidence of inside on most of his cut shots. Could it be that the wet conditions of an outside table make this a preferred, more reliable technique? I've watched Efren's technique closely for many, many years, and I admit he uses outside slow spin for a great number of his shots, maybe more than most folks. But seems like he's using CJ's technique here quite a bit...not every time, but a lot...which if you recall CJ said he learned from Mike Lebron who in turn was learning it from Filipinos...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc14fGCe2k8
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Of course Efren does this....I was clear that it's essential to be a world class player to do this in some way....it's clear that no one that isn't a champion even knows this exists....please don't confuse the messanger with the message....I'm just trying to bring another level to everyone's pool games and I'm not asking for anything except maybe just a "thank you" once in a while and I"ve got many of them so far thank you....I know it may come as a shock that a professional pool player is giving the most valuable thing he has and expects nothing in return, but I believe in being the "sample example" if you really want to create positive change...Aloha :dance::dance::dance:
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
How many times do I have to say "you don't use English"....can anyone go back and count how many? LoL ...this is getting comical :dance:
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lol ... you have no idea how comical it can get in these aiming threads :grin: You have been mostly spared there godly knowledge out of a fear of being banned lol
 
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Pool is really an art form....like martial arts and golf

The Renfro said:
That would be something I would like to hear as well... I can see where you could consider our differences as being in level of aggression.............
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Aggression in Pocket Billiards equates to ACCELERATION......80% of all balls missed in pool AND golf (short game) is do to deceleration..... remember:dance: a lot of my experience comes from golf and working with Hank Haney and 23 years of martial arts training under numerous top level artists....these things are common in other "arts" and that's what pool really is....an art form
 
Comedy Chanel presents "The Three Part Pocket Shirtless Show" LMAO

Living Legend said:
lol ... you have no idea how comical it can get in these aiming threads :grin: You have been mostly spared there godly knowledge out of a fear of being banned lol
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This is better than anything on the Comedy Chanel .... I am determined to teach those that want to learn no matter what....without that I think it would be better to just play straight pool with Lou for $20 a game :canoodle: Lou Dobbs that is ;)
 
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Comedy Chanel presents "The Three Part Pocket Shirtless Show" LMAO

Living Legend said:
lol ... you have no idea how comical it can get in these aiming threads :grin: You have been mostly spared there godly knowledge out of a fear of being banned lol
Click to expand...

This is better than anything on the Comedy Chanel .... I am determined to teach those that want to learn no matter what....without that I think it would be better to just play straight pool with Lou for $20 a game :canoodle: Lou Dobbs that is ;)
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Aggression in Pocket Billiards equates to ACCELERATION......80% of all balls missed in pool AND golf (short game) is do to deceleration..... remember:dance: a lot of my experience comes from golf and working with Hank Haney and 23 years of martial arts training under numerous top level artists....these things are common in other "arts" and that's what pool really is....an art form
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Perhaps this is a subject for another thread, if you are so inclined...could you discuss what you mean by "acceleration" a bit more? Acceleration of the stroke, or the ball as it moves toward the pocket?

I am a very rank novice, so I apologize in advance if this is too obvious. I'm really enjoying these discussions, and I'm finding them very helpful, in terms of trying to get this stuff into my brain in any event. (Getting them into practical application on the table, well that's the rub, isn't it?)
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This is better than anything on the Comedy Chanel .... I am determined to teach those that want to learn no matter what....without that I think it would be better to just play straight pool with Lou for $20 a game :canoodle: Lou Dobbs that is ;)
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:grin: i hope you didnt mean Lou F because he is constantly reminding us of all the world champions he has played at the us open! he even played efren and may post a pic too! so you might get a game :rolleyes:
 
Explaining Squirt on the cue ball to someone that really wants to improve

Patrick Johnson said:
Since you don't know what I was saying, it's not surprising that you wonder.

pj
chgo
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Let me explain the EFFECT SQUIRT HAS ON THE CUE BALL in a way that would make sense to the Player that really wants to improve :eek:
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