Joshua Filler. Damn!

[Poolplaya9]

That's certainly a reasonable point, and yes, I'm using accomplishments as the measure when I look for the G.O.A.T.
I suspect Filler will become just that.

Other than that you are using the wrong measure for GOAT I agree with the rest that there is a pretty good chance he will also become the most accomplished of all time as well. I have less confidence that he will become the most dominant of his era but there is a small chance.

For the record I think titles and such should also be used when ranking for GOAT but mostly as a "tie breaker" of sorts when you can't otherwise tell who is/was more skilled. Again, how can you be the greatest of all time if you can't beat me? For GOAT, clearly skill is the decider and the rest is just tie breakers.

 

[tomatoshooter]

That's certainly a reasonable point, and yes, I'm using accomplishments as the measure when I look for the G.O.A.T.
I suspect Filler will become just that.

"Best" is capability. If someone showed up to an event and won every lag and ran every rack, you could say he's the best, or best ever. To be the G.O.A.T., you have to sustain an high level of performance for a while, win the most titles, etc.

 

[Fatboy]

I hate how he beats up on the USA but I LOVE his game! Fast and loose!
There's been a lot of talk over the years about how to "save / bring back" pool.
If it was back on TV, with shot clocks and his style of play, I believe it would draw viewers big time.
His comeback against Ruiz was awesome!
...
I'd put Shane, and Shaw in there too of course, but Filler............damn!
Earl must love him!

Yes he has monster talent and then some.

He played Johnny Archer in the finals in Germany one night at the pool room there. I bet on JA, I was the only person betting on JA, I made a list of who wanted to bet how much. Summer 2016

I got ALL the cash, took down the whole rail! Nobody but me bet on JA.

This calls for a pic!

Snapping off rails one at a time since 1985,

Fatboy

 

[Woodshaft]

Yes he has monster talent and then some.

He played Johnny Archer in the finals in Germany one night at the pool room there. I bet on JA, I was the only person betting on JA, I made a list of who wanted to bet how much. Summer 2016

I got ALL the cash, took down the whole rail! Nobody but me bet on JA.

This calls for a pic!

Snapping off rails one at a time since 1985,

Fatboy

Good for Johnny-- love the guy! But any pro can beat any pro in a short race any day. And Josh was 18 then too. Glad you beat the odds that day though! Johnny wouldn't beat Josh in a long race though, then or now lol

 

[Fatboy]

Good for Johnny-- love the guy! But any pro can beat any pro in a short race any day. And Josh was 18 then too. Glad you beat the odds that day though! Johnny wouldn't beat Josh in a long race though, then or now lol

That day/night Filler had zero chance.

JA caught a gear from 95 and nobody could beat him. Was raining all day, tables super wet, brutal conditions. Didn’t miss a ball. There’s no such thing as a lock-but that day was as close as it gets. He didn’t out run the nuts, he had the nuts.

To Fillers credit, I could see his talent that tourney-it was clear he was going to become the best player or damn close to it within a few years-if he stuck with pool and had the discipline. Which turned out to be just what’s happened.

Best
Fatboy

 

[sjm]

Other than that you are using the wrong measure for GOAT I agree with the rest that there is a pretty good chance he will also become the most accomplished of all time as well. I have less confidence that he will become the most dominant of his era but there is a small chance.

For the record I think titles and such should also be used when ranking for GOAT but mostly as a "tie breaker" of sorts when you can't otherwise tell who is/was more skilled. Again, how can you be the greatest of all time if you can't beat me? For GOAT, clearly skill is the decider and the rest is just tie breakers.

Filler is, in my view, exactly as skilled as Earl Strickland was in his prime, but Josh is a more complete player than Earl was, because his decision-making and defensive play are a little above that which Earl displayed. Varner and Sigel were, ever so slightly, better players than Strickland, but neither had more skill than Earl. If titles is to be the tiebreaker between equal talents, Earl Strickland still rates above Filler.

I don't know your age, so I don't know the extent to which you watched Strickland in his prime, so forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know. Earl, especially in 1984-94, used to whitewash champions of the highest order on a regular basis. It was mind-blowing how often Earl beat guys like Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, and Buddy Hall by very lopsided scores like 11-1 or 11-2 and how often he won major titles going undefeated from start to finish. Just like Filler, he mass produced major titles, including five US Open 9-ball titles and three WPA World 9-ball Championships.

I feel strongly, however, that Filler's career will one day eclipse that of Earl Strickland, not because he's more talented but because he's a more rounded player. I must admit that in my years on the forum, this is the first time I've found a poster that thinks more highly of Filler than me. Ultimately, we're in the same camp, and we both understand what we're watching when we watch this remarkable player.

 

[Island Drive]

And some forgot about Earl running that 10 pack + 1 more for the Million at CJ's in Dallas.

CJ gave this ck immediately to Earl, outta the blue right after his amazing accomplishment. During his running out, EARL had to stop play, and WAIT, he was very impatient waiting on the required video needed to record the last 5 or six racks. Helfert I think remembers the details.

 

[jay helfert]

Filler is, in my view, exactly as skilled as Earl Strickland was in his prime, but Josh is a more complete player than Earl was, because his decision-making and defensive play are a little above that which Earl displayed. Varner and Sigel were, ever so slightly, better players than Strickland, but neither had more skill than Earl. If titles is to be the tiebreaker between equal talents, Earl Strickland still rates above Filler.

I don't know your age, so I don't know the extent to which you watched Strickland in his prime, so forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know. Earl, especially in 1984-94, used to whitewash champions of the highest order on a regular basis. It was mind-blowing how often Earl beat guys like Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, and Buddy Hall by very lopsided scores like 11-1 or 11-2 and how often he won major titles going undefeated from start to finish. Just like Filler, he mass produced major titles, including five US Open 9-ball titles and three WPA World 9-ball Championships.

I feel strongly, however, that Filler's career will one day eclipse that of Earl Strickland, not because he's more talented but because he's a more rounded player. I must admit that in my years on the forum, this is the first time I've found a poster that thinks more highly of Filler than me. Ultimately, we're in the same camp, and we both understand what we're watching when we watch this remarkable player.

Great report as always. I was there to see Earl in his prime and I used to say, "Earl plays a speed above the rest of the world!" He is the first player I ever said about, "He makes a pool table look like he's playing on a bar table." Earl was putting together five, six and seven packs in every match he played. I saw him come back from scores like 7-2 down to take the lead 9-7 before his opponent even returned to the table. They looked beat down by then, and that includes some of the top guys. Earl actually mesmerized some good players to where it looked like they forgot how to play pool! True story.

 

[sjm]

Great report as always. I was there to see Earl in his prime and I used to say, "Earl plays a speed above the rest of the world!" He is the first player I ever said about, "He makes a pool table look like he's playing on a bar table." Earl was putting together five, six and seven packs in every match he played. I saw him come back from scores like 7-2 down to take the lead 9-7 before his opponent even returned to the table. They looked beat down by then, and that includes some of the top guys. Earl actually mesmerized some good players to where it looked like they forgot how to play pool! True story.

Well said. I, too, saw Earl from day one. Earl possessed a gear that I feel nobody has ever matched, not even Sigel, Varner, Shane or Filler. On some days, it was near impossible to beat him. Sometimes, I think people forget.

 

[jay helfert]

Well said. I, too, saw Earl from day one. Earl possessed a gear that I feel nobody has ever matched, not even Sigel, Varner, Shane or Filler. On some days, it was near impossible to beat him. Sometimes, I think people forget.

Filler is nearly in the same league as far as I'm concerned. He runs out like water, being totally undisturbed by length or angle of a shot. If there is one difference, it was Earl's ability to learn and adapt to the break on each table, thus making it possible for him to string racks. He was the first player I ever saw warm up for a match just by shooting break shot after break shot. Once he had the break down you were dead meat. I even had the distinct pleasure of experiencing it twice in my truncated pool career. In our first match in Memphis I was 3-2 down and feeling okay when I missed a long shot. I sat down for the next six racks! When I shot again I was kicking at a ball. I actually won a game when he was on the hill (a lucky combo on the nine) and he beat me 11-3. Then we played a Bank Pool match in Kentucky, my best game. He beat me 3-0 and I got one ball total in the match, if you can call it that. It was over in something like twenty minutes!

 

[Island Drive]

SJM, next time, or my next time, tho I know you'll seem em first.
Ask em about his thoughts when he was traveling with, Monroe Brock & the ''another tall dark man'', when he showed up at Paramount Billiards in Long Beach CA.
Adam Brostoskis place, best old man I ever knew.

I've always wanted to ask Earl about his thoughts of that moment in time.
Late 70's.

FOR YOU YOUNGSTERS OUT THERE......76-81

The last major gas crisis, run on about 5 yrs.

Personally, I don't think it will last as long, this time around.

 

[Taxi]

Filler is, in my view, exactly as skilled as Earl Strickland was in his prime, but Josh is a more complete player than Earl was, because his decision-making and defensive play are a little above that which Earl displayed. Varner and Sigel were, ever so slightly, better players than Strickland, but neither had more skill than Earl. If titles is to be the tiebreaker between equal talents, Earl Strickland still rates above Filler.

I don't know your age, so I don't know the extent to which you watched Strickland in his prime, so forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know. Earl, especially in 1984-94, used to whitewash champions of the highest order on a regular basis. It was mind-blowing how often Earl beat guys like Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, and Buddy Hall by very lopsided scores like 11-1 or 11-2 and how often he won major titles going undefeated from start to finish. Just like Filler, he mass produced major titles, including five US Open 9-ball titles and three WPA World 9-ball Championships.

I feel strongly, however, that Filler's career will one day eclipse that of Earl Strickland, not because he's more talented but because he's a more rounded player. I must admit that in my years on the forum, this is the first time I've found a poster that thinks more highly of Filler than me. Ultimately, we're in the same camp, and we both understand what we're watching when we watch this remarkable player.

I'm not sure I'd put Earl above the Buddy Hall of the 70's, when he was giving all comers the 7 and sending them home broke. Tournaments are only part of the equation. The Buddy of the 70's and the Filler of today would make for a great matchup, especially if you could alternate the playing conditions between the two eras. Some of those backroom tables that Buddy played on back then weren't much better than some of the ones that the Filipino players were gambling on when they were first learning the game.

 

[sjm]

I'm not sure I'd put Earl above the Buddy Hall of the 70's, when he was giving all comers the 7 and sending them home broke. Tournaments are only part of the equation. The Buddy of the 70's and the Filler of today would make for a great matchup, especially if you could alternate the playing conditions between the two eras. Some of those backroom tables that Buddy played on back then weren't much better than some of the ones that the Filipino players were gambling on when they were first learning the game.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, tournaments ARE the entire equation. Put all the top players in the same place at the same time --- the last guy standing is the best.

Buddy was both a great player and a great gambler, and I am well familiar with his great dominance in action in the Shreveport days, but I'm not putting him in the same conversation as his contemporaries Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, because they consistently outachieved him in competition.

There are many threads on AZB about who the best gamblers are/were, but this isn't one of them.

 

[Fatboy]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, tournaments ARE the entire equation. Put all the top players in the same place at the same time --- the last guy standing is the best.

Buddy was both a great player and a great gambler, and I am well familiar with his great dominance in action in the Shreveport days, but I'm not putting him in the same conversation as his contemporaries Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, because they consistently outachieved him in competition.

There are many threads on AZB about who the best gamblers are/were, but this isn't one of them.

This isn’t one of those threads.

Maybe with the exception of Gorst everyone is playing for 2nd. Time will tell.

That night in Germany was the last time I saw JA play like he did in the 90’s. I’ve see him catch gears since then and play a few good matches then fade-age related fade. But that day he started strong, and it’s got stronger. By the time he reached the finals. Nobody in the world was going to beat him. Had nothing to do with Filler.

Filler is quickly becoming that player that JA was that day. And it’s a amazing evolution to watch.

Pretty cool stuff, I wonder who’s next. He’s a once every 20 years player-while the rest of us struggle for a lifetime.

Best
Fatboy<——-either ya have it or ya don’t. Sometimes you just have to find it…..

 

[Taxi]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, tournaments ARE the entire equation. Put all the top players in the same place at the same time --- the last guy standing is the best.

Buddy was both a great player and a great gambler, and I am well familiar with his great dominance in action in the Shreveport days, but I'm not putting him in the same conversation as his contemporaries Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, because they consistently outachieved him in competition.

There are many threads on AZB about who the best gamblers are/were, but this isn't one of them.

If you want to go only by tournament results, then sure, Earl's the man, Nick and Sigel aren't far behind, and Filler (or Gorst) will likely pass everyone. No argument there.

Just out of curiosity, though, what's your time frame for tournaments? AZB tournament results go back only to 1985, whereas Buddy was at his most dominant in the 70's, especially in the early 70's. And yet in most of the tournaments back then, Buddy often didn't participate, while Jimmy Rempe was acquiring his "King James" moniker. But ask anyone who saw those two match up who was the dominant of the two. (I should add here that I'm talking only about 9 ball.)

 

[sjm]

If you want to go only by tournament results, then sure, Earl's the man, Nick and Sigel aren't far behind, and Filler (or Gorst) will likely pass everyone. No argument there.

Just out of curiosity, though, what's your time frame for tournaments? AZB tournament results go back only to 1985, whereas Buddy was at his most dominant in the 70's, especially in the early 70's. And yet in most of the tournaments back then, Buddy often didn't participate, while Jimmy Rempe was acquiring his "King James" moniker. But ask anyone who saw those two match up who was the dominant of the two. (I should add here that I'm talking only about 9 ball.)

Thanks for the reply, Taxi.

I have been attending tournaments since 1976, so 46 years is my time frame, meaning I've seen the entire nine ball era up close. I would agree with you that Buddy Hall was a stronger player than Jim Rempe at nine-ball. I've only suggested that Earl was the most skilled and gifted player of the nine-ball era until Filler, noting that I felt Varner and Sigel were just slightly better players than Earl.

Buddy Hall, however, is the best nine ball position player pool has ever seen, and that's pretty impressive when you consider some of the players that have followed since.

 

[sjm]

SJM, next time, or my next time, tho I know you'll seem em first.
Ask em about his thoughts when he was traveling with, Monroe Brock & the ''another tall dark man'', when he showed up at Paramount Billiards in Long Beach CA.
Adam Brostoskis place, best old man I ever knew.

I've always wanted to ask Earl about his thoughts of that moment in time.
Late 70's.

FOR YOU YOUNGSTERS OUT THERE......76-81

The last major gas crisis, run on about 5 yrs.

Personally, I don't think it will last as long, this time around.

Best guess is that I'll next see him at the US Open in Atlantic City, but I don't know Earl very well and we rarely chat.

 

[Taxi]

Thanks for the reply, Taxi.

I have been attending tournaments since 1976, so 46 years is my time frame, meaning I've seen the entire nine ball era up close. I would agree with you that Buddy Hall was a stronger player than Jim Rempe at nine-ball. I've only suggested that Earl was the most skilled and gifted player of the nine-ball era until Filler, noting that I felt Varner and Sigel were just slightly better players than Earl.

Buddy Hall, however, is the best nine ball position player pool has ever seen, and that's pretty impressive when you consider some of the players that have followed since.

sjm, you've seen far more tournaments than I have over time, and I always enjoy reading your opinions and perspective.

Here's my slightly different perspective: My "introduction" to Buddy Hall came in the very early 70's, a few years before you came onto the scene. At the time, Weenie Beanie's Jack 'n' Jill in Shirlington, VA, was maybe the leading action room in the country, packed with road players 24/7, and Buddy swept through that room like wildfire. In maybe his most celebrated matchup, he beat Rempe in a 10 ahead freezeout for $25,000 in a match where the table time came to something like 55 cents! I also saw him win the 9 ball and the all-around title at Joe Burns' Dayton tournament in 1974,* when every major player in the country was taking part in it. One of the non-tournament highlights I remember that week was watching Buddy and Siegel playing 9 ball opposite handed, and if you didn't know they were doing that, you would've sworn you were watching two champions playing with their "natural" hand. I only wish that the great players of later years, the Asians and the Europeans, could be transplanted to that tournament to see how they would've done. I'd pay serious money to be in that crowd.

* What an incredible tournament that was. The highlight wasn't even the tournament itself, but a nonstop $50 / $100 payball ring game where the late Denny Searcy took down one champion after another over the course of several days, leaving only himself and Jimmy Reid with more money than they brought into the game. That was a match that even Sports Illustrated made mention of, in a long article that appeared there a few years later, a terrific profile of Danny D. I envy all the great events you've been lucky enough to attend.

 

[PoolBum]

Well said. I, too, saw Earl from day one. Earl possessed a gear that I feel nobody has ever matched, not even Sigel, Varner, Shane or Filler. On some days, it was near impossible to beat him. Sometimes, I think people forget.

Earl's top gear is the best I've ever seen as well. Shane is the closest I've seen to Earl's top gear. I tend to rate players based on their all-around game, though, and I think Sigel and Varner were both better all-around players (i.e., with all disciplines considered) than Earl, and that Varner was the best all-around player of the three. Reyes to me comes out slightly better than Nick on that scale. Filler certainly has the all-around game to challenge the best of all time, IMO.

 

[sjm]

sjm, you've seen far more tournaments than I have over time, and I always enjoy reading your opinions and perspective.

Here's my slightly different perspective: My "introduction" to Buddy Hall came in the very early 70's, a few years before you came onto the scene. At the time, Weenie Beanie's Jack 'n' Jill in Shirlington, VA, was maybe the leading action room in the country, packed with road players 24/7, and Buddy swept through that room like wildfire. In maybe his most celebrated matchup, he beat Rempe in a 10 ahead freezeout for $25,000 in a match where the table time came to something like 55 cents! I also saw him win the 9 ball and the all-around title at Joe Burns' Dayton tournament in 1974,* when every major player in the country was taking part in it. One of the non-tournament highlights I remember that week was watching Buddy and Siegel playing 9 ball opposite handed, and if you didn't know they were doing that, you would've sworn you were watching two champions playing with their "natural" hand. I only wish that the great players of later years, the Asians and the Europeans, could be transplanted to that tournament to see how they would've done. I'd pay serious money to be in that crowd.

* What an incredible tournament that was. The highlight wasn't even the tournament itself, but a nonstop $50 / $100 payball ring game where the late Denny Searcy took down one champion after another over the course of several days, leaving only himself and Jimmy Reid with more money than they brought into the game. That was a match that even Sports Illustrated made mention of, in a long article that appeared there a few years later, a terrific profile of Danny D. I envy all the great events you've been lucky enough to attend.

Great story, Taxi, and thanks for sharing. We've both got some great memories of watching some phenomenal pool up close and personal over the years, and it sounds like you've enjoyed it every bit as much as I.