For the money, Buddy was the best 9-Ball player for maybe twenty years! Earl didn't want to gamble with Buddy either. He tried once in Shreveport and didn't fare too well. Buddy was The Man here for a long, long time!
Joshua Filler. Damn!
- Thread starter 9andout
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The followup to that payball game story is that I was in dead punch that week, and when I saw Searcy walk into the room I asked him if he wanted to play "our game". I'd played him on a 10 ft. table in San Francisco in 1971 and came out even with the break, although in hindsight he was obviously just lemoning. But I was playing the best pool of my life and figured What The Hell.
Anyway, he asked me what "our game" was, and I lied and told him the 8 and the break. He said "maybe later", but "I've got a little game I want to get in first". Meaning the payball game. So I go take a leak and grab a drink, and by the time I got to the payball table he was already $8400 ahead---it was a 7 player game, and he'd run 2 racks with $50 on the low balls, $100 on the 7, and double on the run, x 6 players = $4200 x 2 games = $8400. Meanwhile six of the best road players in the country were just sitting there stuck in their chairs.
I once literally dodged a bullet in a pool room back in DC, but it was nothing like the bullet I dodged in Dayton that night when Searcy put me off. Sometimes the best games are the ones you don't get in.
Stu, I can only partially agree with you here. Buddy did win tournaments, lots of them, including some of the biggest ones during the 70's and 80's, up unitl the 90's. He won in Lake Tahoe, Dayton, Los Angeles, Chicago and Vegas in fields with all the best players. He also won more bar table tournaments than anyone before or since. That's not even close. Those might be harder to win, playing 9-Ball on those little tables. But somehow he did it week after week, month after month, year after year. Buddy covered more territory (mostly East of the Mississippi) for many years than any other player. He rarely missed an event. He had to, no one wanted to gamble with him any more.
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Thanks, Jay. At 64 years young, I'm comforted by the presence of those who have been around pool longer than me.Stu, I can only partially agree with you here. Buddy did win tournaments, lots of them, including some of the biggest ones during the 70's and 80's, up unitl the 90's. He won in Lake Tahoe, Dayton, Los Angeles and Vegas in fields with all the best players. He also won more bar table tournaments than anyone before or since. That's not even close. Those might be harder to win, playing 9-Ball on those little tables. But somehow he did it week after week, month after month, year after year. Buddy covered more territory (mostly East of the Mississippi) for many years than any other player. He rarely missed an event. He had to, no one wanted to gamble with him any more.
FYI, in a previous thread about my greatest moments ever in pool, I included watching Buddy Hall's win at the 1998 US Open, calling it a how-to-play-pool tutorial. He was 53 years old at the time.
I know how special Buddy was.
Just finished watching this Filler vs. Filler match.
Pia is a very strong player and gave him a run for his money- I know she is a pro, but she shoots better than I previously thought (having watched her play that much). Must be a bit strange playing a pro pool match against your wife! Imagine if they have a kid someday- would be a great combination of nature and nurture. Filler might be the best player ever only to be outdone by their son or daughter!
Pia is a very strong player and gave him a run for his money- I know she is a pro, but she shoots better than I previously thought (having watched her play that much). Must be a bit strange playing a pro pool match against your wife! Imagine if they have a kid someday- would be a great combination of nature and nurture. Filler might be the best player ever only to be outdone by their son or daughter!
sjm, you might remember that in the hot seat match of that 1998 tournament, Buddy got robbed in the 19th game when Tang Hoa didn't hit a rail on a safe shot, and the ref missed it. I was sitting right in line with the long rail and it was easy to see that the ball never reached it. But since only a few of us had that favorable vantage point, and since we were honor bound to keep our mouths shut, Buddy was left with nothing but a jacked up bank shot on the 6 ball at an awkward angle. At that point the match was tied, and it looked like the ref's missed call might cost Buddy the match.
Only Buddy took a few deep breaths, studied the shot for what seemed like an eternity, and them calmly banked the 6 ball cross corner off the long rail. He then finished off the rack and broke and ran the final rack to give himself a spot in the final. And a few hours later, he repeated his win over Tang Hoa to take home the cheese, only that match was a lot more lopsided.
In all the years I've been dealing with Accu-Stats, the only time I've been disappointed in them is that they didn't record that hot seat match, even though it was on the TV table. Maybe because it took place during the dinner hour, I don't know. But after Buddy finished off that final match with something like a 13-4 win, I got him to give me his BreatheRight nose bandage to give to my wife. It was the most, er, unusual souvenir she ever got in her life, and it was my favorite U. S. Open ever.
I spoke to JA last night. We were talking about the greatest 9 ball player of all time. We don’t talk about pool much, He said “Buddy” was the best 9B player during his own career. Earls high gear is another topic all together. But overall Buddy got the nod.
Pretty solid endorsement.
I can’t disagree. He never shot a hard shot, he didn’t get lucky like the other guy
Best
Fatboy <———-Buddy’s been one of my pool heros forever! I’ve only spoke to him a couple times. And yeah I was star struck the first time(only time that ever happened to me in pool)
Yup, I remember that hot-seat match and the final. It was one of the best US Opens by my assessment.
Raph Cleary
Active member
This is the truest post on how to “save pool” I’ve read in years. Game, pocket size, ball color, rules, mean nothing.
You need players that are fun and FAST to watch! Filler, Shaw, Earl, Schmidt, Luc Salvas, etc.
The slow players with no expressions are as boring to watch as anything.
You need players that are fun and FAST to watch! Filler, Shaw, Earl, Schmidt, Luc Salvas, etc.
The slow players with no expressions are as boring to watch as anything.
Don't forget the guy who played faster than all of these --- Tony Drago.
That Hall/Rempe match up…..my old buddy Pittsburg John was there….many people considered Rempe the favorite.
John figured he’d bet on the guy who was active in back room action over the tournament player…..
…..he won a small fortune betting on Buddy.
Right you are. Tang gave Buddy a scare in the hot seat match before losing 11-9. That's probably why Buddy made a saver with him in the finals (25K for first and 12.5K for second). I think Tang beat Rempe or Mika to get back in the finals. I remember we went back to our room at the Red Roof Inn (we had a 2-3 hour break before the finals) and Tang was excited about being in the finals of the U.S. Open. I knew he was not ready to win yet, so I was glad when Buddy offered the saver (4k). A lot of people don't know how good Tang really was back then. He had two 4ths on the camel Tour and made the top ten on Tour each year for good bonuses. He was a fearless money player and beat a lot of big names for the cash. Morro Paez was the Mexican money game king and try as he might, he could never beat Tang. No one could beat Tang in L.A. back then. He won all the money at the first Hard Times Jamboree in Sacramento, sweeping both the One Pocket and 9-Ball divisions for a nice score (about 10K). The field was stacked too with all the top Filipinos. Finally, I remember the shoe box under his bed stuffed with Benjamins.
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You asked me to play at Yankee Doodles and I turned you down. I had heard about your tussle with young Earl and wanted no part of you. I got high with him at his motel in Long Beach and he told me about the tall man (you). Ha Ha
You don't think decision making and defensive play are skills? And that they are part of a person's overall pool skills and abilities? Really?
Maybe we are defining skill differently but for the world of me I can't imagine how you could possibly be defining it that would not include their decision making and defensive play as being part of their skill for the game, part of what makes their ability what it is. When I say skill I am talking about their ability to play, as in how good of a player they are. As in if you could time warp them when they were at their peak into the same place and have them play say three races to eleven every day for a month, who would have won the most sets at the end of the three months?
Once again you are going by their records and accomplishments instead of just comparing their games and what you are doing is analyzing who the "most accomplished of all time" is, not who "the greatest of all time" is. It really is as simple as I laid out in a previous post. If there is or ever was anybody that could have said "how can you be the greatest of all time if you didn't play better than me and wouldn't have been able to beat me" then you are not the greatest of all time, period, end of story.
As in if you and my (just to pick any two players) prime selves were to play three races to eleven each day for three months, and I would come out on top, then I am a better player than you regardless of what titles you have won or anything else. How can you be the greatest of all time if you can't beat me? Don't you agree that you can't be the greatest of all time if there is somebody else that plays/played better and would (have) beat you? Clearly you aren't the greatest of all time if that is the case although you could certainly be the most accomplished of all time, or the most dominant of your era, or something else, but those are very different things from the greatest of all time.
I've been around for all of the players you mentioned. Something that is important to know though (and to do something about) is that all humans have a natural tendency to let how good players of the past played in comparison to their contemporaries skew and inflate how skilled we view them as having been when we try to compare them to those from another era. Among other things I think you still have a tendency to fall victim to this a bit as well. You really have to fight hard to not be influenced by how much better they were than the others from their era and isolate their game away from that and see how their game alone in isolation would stack up against someone else. For example, we have to completely forget how much Strickland dominated others in his prime (part of the time anyway), and we have to forget how much Filler is dominating those in his prime (a good part of the time anyway), and just compare their isolated games and games alone and determine who was more skilled, as in who would have beat who if they played three races a day for three months in their primes. How much they dominated their peers in their time, or how many or what titles they won, and anything else simply isn't relevant to that (unless/until they are tied in skill/ability and you need something a tie breaker).
For the record, if we time warped Earl in his prime and Filler in his prime and had them play 3 races to 11 every day for 3 months, Filler would win, because Filler is more skilled, the better player, however you want to say it. Therefore it quite simply is not possible for Earl to be the greatest of all time because there is somebody else that was better than him (how can you be the greatest of all time if you can't beat me?). I also think Filler in his prime beats SVB in his prime as well, and some would argue that they are both currently in their primes and Filler is doing just that in real time and we are getting to watch it, but my opinion is that SVB while still very near is just past or at least off his prime.
Sometimes it is real hard to figure out who would have won in their primes though and it is too close to a tie to be able to tell, like maybe you can't figure out who would have won at the end of three sets a day for three months if Sigel and Hall were time warped from their primes (just an example, pick any two you have a hard deciding who would have won between), and that is when you now have to start looking at things like titles and other factors in order to break the tie in the pecking order for GOAT. Your ability as a player is what makes you the greatest of all time, but there is plenty of room for debate on what things should be used as tie breakers and how much weight we should give each of those things when two players are equally skilled/play at the same level as we must use some secondary criteria/s to break the tie.
"How can you be the greatest of all time when there was somebody else more skilled than you, that played better than you, that would have beat you?" You can't.
Please, let's have a more civil debate. Obviously, you think I'm clueless, telling me that I have no idea what being the GOAT means and that I don't understand the criteria for the assessment of skill. I greatly respect your opinions on these matters, and I'm not saying you are wrong, just that there's room for interpretation in each case.
From my vantage point, decision making affects how much you get out of whatever skills you have. Give me too equally skilled players in their youth, and I'm betting that the one who does a better job of adding good conceptualization and defensive habits over time will end up being the better player. Such learning will, sometimes, come down more to work ethic and instruction than skill/talent.
Finally, based on the responses I've seen to this point, most feel Earl was more skilled than Filler but, and this is scary to say, Filler is still developing as a player and it's mind-numbing to think how much better a player he will become before he hangs up his cue.
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Let's hope Filler's money fest of late will motivate others to try their hand at pool. In October, he won $10,000 at the American 14.1 and $16,000 at the International Bigfoot and in December he won $30,000 at the Mosconi. Add these to his year to day earnings (per the AZB money Llist) of $119,000 and Filler has won $175,000 in eight months of pro pool competition. Josh is, quite simply, on fire, and is helping to validate pro pool as a lucrative career.