Joshua Filler. Damn!

Pool Player 9, trying to determine who is the best in pool isn't quite as simple as you make it seem. For convenience let's give the top five players in the world a letter, ABCD and E.
A beats CD and E.
A loses to B.
B loses to CD and E.
This can happen. Who is the best player? Despite B having his number I would have to say A is.
Definitely agree that sometimes it can be difficult to determine for ourselves who was better than who and it isn’t always nice and clear cut. I also agree that if and when their primes overlapped that we should be looking at their records against each other and against others to help inform us as to the relative strength of their play. One of the things that makes things tough is that it pretty much never happens that any two players in consideration had their primes line up exactly, and that during those concurrent primes they played all the same events (and the same number of events), so inevitably we have to rely largely and often solely on our judgment of the strength of their games from what we see, i.e. their skill and ability, to be able to make any kind of meaningful comparison about who was better than who.

You missed my point though. It would be ludicrous if you used a formula for choosing the GOAT that came up with one guy as GOAT, but where you yourself, in your own judgment, felt there was somebody else who was clearly, overall on net, a better, stronger, more skilled player. Obviously that would be a silly and faulty formula because it would be nonsensical for you to call one guy the GOAT if you feel somebody else was better (if you think you disagree with this premise then please explain why, but it seems abundantly obvious and I think most would agree if they gave it any real thought). They might have more accomplishments, or might have been more dominant in their era, or might be something else notable and worthy, but they clearly can’t be your GOAT if in your judgment there is somebody you are convinced was better.

This tells us that we have to rely on the strength of their games first and foremost to make the comparison for GOAT because any other method, whether it be how many tournaments they won or how much they dominated in their era or anything else can lead to exactly that nonsensical scenario where you feel that there is somebody else who played the game at a higher level than what some other formula comes up with for the GOAT.

Sometimes we just won’t be able to determine in our own minds who was better than who between players based on the strength of their play, and when that happens we of course have to then go to other criteria to help break the ties. There is plenty of room for debate on what those secondary criteria should be, and how much weight should be given to each. What I can't see any debate for is that the formula must come up with the player with the overall strongest game on net as GOAT, and the only thing that does that and therefore is the only one that makes any sense to use, is to make every effort to go by the strength of their play first and use other criteria as tie breakers as needed.

As to what happens if you simply can't tell who had the strongest game between say the top two players on your list (or any other two players for that matter), then the "how can you be the GOAT when there is somebody else who was better" rule hasn't been broken and none of the above applies in that case. It only fails to make any sense if you (you being anybody) are calling one person the GOAT and yet you believe somebody else was a better player, which means you are clearly using the wrong formula to determine GOAT instead of going by the strength of their games first and foremost like you should have.
 
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Definitely agree that sometimes it can be difficult to determine for ourselves who was better than who and it isn’t always nice and clear cut. I also agree that if and when their primes overlapped that we should be looking at their records against each other and against others to help inform us as to the relative strength of their play. One of the things that makes things tough is that it pretty much never happens that any two players in consideration had their primes line up exactly, and that during those concurrent primes they played all the same events (and the same number of events), so inevitably we have to rely largely and often solely on our judgment of the strength of their games from what we see, i.e. their skill and ability, to be able to make any kind of meaningful comparison about who was better than who.

You missed my point though. It would be ludicrous if you used a formula for choosing the GOAT that came up with one guy as GOAT, but where you yourself, in your own judgment, felt there was somebody else who was clearly, overall on net, a better, stronger, more skilled player. Obviously that would be a silly and faulty formula because it would be nonsensical for you to call one guy the GOAT if you feel somebody else was better (if you think you disagree with this premise then please explain why, but it seems abundantly obvious and I think most would agree if they gave it any real thought). They might have more accomplishments, or might have been more dominant in their era, or might be something else notable and worthy, but they clearly can’t be your GOAT if in your judgment there is somebody you are convinced was better.

This tells us that we have to rely on the strength of their games first and foremost to make the comparison for GOAT because any other method, whether it be how many tournaments they won or how much they dominated in their era or anything else can lead to exactly that nonsensical scenario where you feel that there is somebody else who played the game at a higher level than what some other formula comes up with for the GOAT.

Sometimes we just won’t be able to determine in our own minds who was better than who between players based on the strength of their play, and when that happens we of course have to then go to other criteria to help break the ties. There is plenty of room for debate on what those secondary criteria should be, and how much weight should be given to each. What I can't see any debate for is that the formula must come up with the player with the overall strongest game on net as GOAT, and the only thing that does that and therefore is the only one that makes any sense to use, is to make every effort to go by the strength of their play first and use other criteria as tie breakers as needed.

As to what happens if you simply can't tell who had the strongest game between say the top two players on your list (or any other two players for that matter), then the "how can you be the GOAT when there is somebody else who was better" rule hasn't been broken and none of the above applies in that case. It only fails to make any sense if you (you being anybody) are calling one person the GOAT and yet you believe somebody else was a better player, which means you are clearly using the wrong formula to determine GOAT instead of going by the strength of their games first and foremost like you should have.
You might need medical attention
 
Pool sucks on TV. If you don’t play pool-there’s nothing to watch.

Snooker is a running score based game like basketball.

Simple as that.

And a million more threads to come on this topic

That's a fair point on the running score, never thought of that. Straight pool for TV it is!!
 
Filler is nearly in the same league as far as I'm concerned. He runs out like water, being totally undisturbed by length or angle of a shot. If there is one difference, it was Earl's ability to learn and adapt to the break on each table, thus making it possible for him to string racks. He was the first player I ever saw warm up for a match just by shooting break shot after break shot. Once he had the break down you were dead meat. I even had the distinct pleasure of experiencing it twice in my truncated pool career. In our first match in Memphis I was 3-2 down and feeling okay when I missed a long shot. I sat down for the next six racks! When I shot again I was kicking at a ball. I actually won a game when he was on the hill (a lucky combo on the nine) and he beat me 11-3. Then we played a Bank Pool match in Kentucky, my best game. He beat me 3-0 and I got one ball total in the match, if you can call it that. It was over in something like twenty minutes! :oops:
I was watching Earl warn up before a match one time. For some reason, he was shooting nothing but long, straight in shots. He put the object ball between the side pockets and the cue deep in the jaws (he was setting them up dead straight). He was jacking up, hitting 100MPH and stopping the cue. He shot that same shot for 20-30 minutes. Probably was making 4/5. It was impressive to watch.
 
You don't think decision making and defensive play are skills? And that they are part of a person's overall pool skills and abilities? Really?

Maybe we are defining skill differently but for the world of me I can't imagine how you could possibly be defining it that would not include their decision making and defensive play as being part of their skill for the game, part of what makes their ability what it is. .

This is exactly why we spent numerous hours deriving formulas to creat metrics such as DSR, CSP, SA, RDL so on so forth (It's quite a very long list and we got tired of writing research papers nobody was reading). Hell, we even analyzed a few games by David Alcaide during a tournament which showed the rate of his defensive success to games won during the match. All the code was saved (DSR during game, match versus specific games won) and automated for future analysis (and for posterity too of course!)
 
This is the point that you continually avoided having to address for what has all appearances of being so that you would not have to put at risk a view that you have some emotional attachment to. Perhaps it was just that you never really understood what i was trying to say, but it really is as straight forward and simple as the second half of that first sentence.
Wow, emotional attachment --- I nearly fell off my chair on that one. As my posts over the years have made abundantly clear, Earl may be my least favorite player ever, and I'm not sure I've ever rooted for him except at the Mosconi Cup. That said, my dislike for the man's abrasive style doesn't obscure my understanding of his greatness. I saw his prime up close and feel amply qualified to pass judgment on it. I, similarly, respect your right to make judgments on the careers of the greats. Time to put this debate to rest. You have continually attacked my ability to make logical judgments, and I'm letting it go, because I'm OK with it.
 
That's a fair point on the running score, never thought of that. Straight pool for TV it is!!
It’s big point, took me years to actually notice it. It’s very obvious once you think about it, but I had never thought about it.

Basketball is a game I mite be the worst player ever at. I’m not a player, I’m completely useless. I can’t catch, throw a free throw. Hitting the backboard I can do 1 out of 5 tries. Forget dribbling the ball. I just trip and fall. It’s comical how bad I am at BB. So what’s the point?

Point is I can watch BB, not having a clue about how to do what the players are doing and still gain entertainment from it. And that is following the score.

14.1 = 1 ball 1 point. Kinda vanilla

Snooker 7 black, 6 pink, 5 blue…….1 red. Every other shot. So the score can move quickly when someone is on the black real good or be slow in a tactical frame. There’s variance at the rate points are scored. Much like American football.

Sorry I can’t explain soccer or why anyone likes it. Not my jam…..

So I think running score games with variance at which scoring happens is a very very powerful way to hold or engage a audience.

Pool lacks that.

As a pool player I can watch the slowest grindy 1P wedge game and love it. But I know what’s going on and that took me years to learn. I’m a trained rail bird. People who don’t know how to draw the rock-not their fault just don’t have much to watch. I do. Maybe curling is like this. For me it seems dumb, but some people seem to love it. It’s in the Olympics and a thread here making fun of it for the last dozen years.

All I got guys and girls
Fatboy<——-off to zzzzz, I’m a pro🛏
 
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Wow, emotional attachment --- I nearly fell off my chair on that one. As my posts over the years have made abundantly clear, Earl may be my least favorite player ever, and I'm not sure I've ever rooted for him except at the Mosconi Cup. That said, my dislike for the man's abrasive style doesn't obscure my understanding of his greatness. I saw his prime up close and feel amply qualified to pass judgment on it. I, similarly, respect your right to make judgments on the careers of the greats. Time to put this debate to rest. You have continually attacked my ability to make logical judgments, and I'm letting it go, because I'm OK with it.
Well said Stu. I don’t know Earl well, but he’s always been very polite and nice to me when we have spoke or i have seen him.

Hope your well, I’m in Europe again, holding it down. I was in London 3-4 weeks ago before I went home and came back. Funny the older I get the more I like London-it’s growing on me.

Ok back to pool,

Best
Eric 😄
 
It’s big point, took me years to actually notice it. It’s very obvious once you think about it, but I had never thought about it.

Basketball is a game I mite be the worst player ever at. I’m not a player, I’m completely useless. I can’t catch, throw a free throw. Hitting the backboard I can do 1 out of 5 tries. Forget dribbling the ball. I just trip and fall. It’s comical how bad I am at BB. So what’s the point?

Point is I can watch BB, not having a clue about how to do what the players are doing and still gain entertainment from it. And that is following the score.

14.1 = 1 ball 1 point. Kinda vanilla

Snooker 7 black, 6 pink, 5 blue…….1 red. Every other shot. So the score can move quickly when someone is on the black real good or be slow in a tactical frame. There’s variance at the rate points are scored. Much like American football.

Sorry I can’t explain soccer or why anyone likes it. Not my jam…..

So I think running score games with variance at which scoring happens is a very very powerful way to hold or engage a audience.

Pool lacks that.

As a pool player I can watch the slowest grindy 1P wedge game and love it. But I know what’s going on and that took me years to learn. I’m a trained rail bird. People who don’t know how to draw the rock-not their fault just don’t have much to watch. I do. Maybe curling is like this. For me it seems dumb, but some people seem to love it. It’s in the Olympics and a thread here making fun of it for the last dozen years.

All I got guys and girls
Fatboy<——-off to zzzzz, I’m a pro🛏

Another set of great points. I LOVE snooker, but I had never thought of it through this lens.
 
Well said Stu. I don’t know Earl well, but he’s always been very polite and nice to me when we have spoke or i have seen him.

Hope your well, I’m in Europe again, holding it down. I was in London 3-4 weeks ago before I went home and came back. Funny the older I get the more I like London-it’s growing on me.

Ok back to pool,

Best
Eric 😄
I also don't know him well, but on those rare occasions we've chatted, I've always been polite and respectful, and have always wished him good luck. He has always been courteous to me, as well. My problem is how he has, far too often, mistreated players, refs, sponsors, tournament directors and others who combine to produce the professional pool product. Some AZBers like to call it "Earl being Earl" but I call it disrespectful.

Like you, all visits tolled, I've spent many years of my life in Europe, most of it in England.
 
I also don't know him well, but on those rare occasions we've chatted, I've always been polite and respectful, and have always wished him good luck. He has always been courteous to me, as well. My problem is how he has, far too often, mistreated players, refs, sponsors, tournament directors and others who combine to produce the professional pool product. Some AZBers like to call it "Earl being Earl" but I call it disrespectful.
As per usual we are on the exact same page!

Your friend
Eric😃
 
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This was always the problem with Earl. His outrageous and abrasive style. He even pissed off Efren on occasion. Basically it was a form of sharking that he got away with because no Tournament Director would ever disqualify him -- he was too popular. Ive also heard away from the Table he's a great guy. But everyone for the past 40 years has hated to play him because of his shenanigans. And like SJM said, there is no denying his talent in his prime. Tremendous 9 ball player. And intimidating. I think his boorish behavior was just nerves.
 
The sky is the limit with this guy, he controls the next 24 months. He may win everything he enters. He is that good. fun to watch. the next SVH to the game. fluid motion. Girlfriend for motivation.
 
The sky is the limit with this guy, he controls the next 24 months. He may win everything he enters. He is that good. fun to watch. the next SVH to the game. fluid motion. Girlfriend for motivation.
He's on a good run & has loads of talent, but you may want to pump the brakes a bit. 6 months ago, all the chatter was about how Albin was playing some of the best pool we'd ever seen. I still think he, SVB, and Fedor would be even money or minor dogs against Filler. If Josh won even half of the tournaments he entered, that would (and should) be considered extremely dominant.
 
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I also don't know him well, but on those rare occasions we've chatted, I've always been polite and respectful, and have always wished him good luck. He has always been courteous to me, as well. My problem is how he has, far too often, mistreated players, refs, sponsors, tournament directors and others who combine to produce the professional pool product. Some AZBers like to call it "Earl being Earl" but I call it disrespectful.

Like you, all visits tolled, I've spent many years of my life in Europe, most of it in England.
I believe Earl suffers from something that is beyond his control. I won't go into here in the thread, but I'll just say that he is not alone in this regard.

As far as his "outbursts," this is why people surround his table. Some pool enthusiasts enjoy seeing raw emotion. Pool promoters love him. Not everybody wants to sit back and watch emotionless tournament-soldier robots playing mum pool. Pool purists have their likes and dislikes, as do other people who enjoy seeing the raw emotion. This conflict exists more so in American pool than European pool, which is why some Americans root for non-American players on a regular basis, which is okay. To each their own, of course. I like players from around the world and have my favorites, but I will always root for the home team in international competitions. USA, ALL THE WAY!

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Filler was using a wood shaft last time I watched him. Does anyone know if he still is and, if so, which specific model it is? Thanks!
 
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