Just for US players
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
supergreenman said:This seems to be the typical response to any field where the US can't compete. As much as some people like to tout Americas "free market" economy they are often the first to complain loudly and ask for tarrifs when us companys can't compete.
This list includes:
farmers
auto makers
soft wood lumber producers
breweries
and many more...
And now you'd like to add Pool players to the list. Typical.
free trade is great for the US (except when they can't compete)
That's not a USA-only thing. Go to China. Harley's sell for nearly 2x what they do in the US because of a 70% import tarriff. Tarriffs usually offset trade deficits.
SpiderWebComm said:
I did not say that Americans were not winning their share of the tournaments now. I'm saying with the purses are so low and so few good paying tournaments we need to keep it ALL for US pool players. I said I would get a lot of flak from this, but I'm not getting as much as I figured. Unless their at work now
Johnnyt
Johnnyt said:I did not say that Americans were not winning their share of the tournaments now. I'm saying with the purses are so low and so few good paying tournaments we need to keep it ALL for US pool players. I said I would get a lot of flak from this, but I'm not getting as much as I figured. Unless their at work now
Don't get me wrong, I wish Americans would win every penny. It's just that if we want pool to be on-par with pro golf, pro tennis and pro (whatever-other-sport), you can't limit fields based on nationality, ever.
Johnnyt said:
This is a good and controversial thread. I don't think that fields should include only Americans. I believe that the Americans should strive to get better if they want to compete and win. The idea of a "Free" country and world allows others to enjoy the liberties to come and play if they want to. However, I think that there should be a limit to how long a non-citizen can be in the country without actually having to become a citizen. This would make foreign players have to pick a couple of tournaments a year over here or make them gain legal citizenship. I also think that any money won over here should be taxed here. Also, if you make money in this country, then you should have to speak the language. I get clients daily that speak no English and complain because we don't speak spanish. Well, news flash clown, this is America. I won't get off on a tangent rant, but I will say that every illegal immigrant should be shipped off immediately. I paid over $28,000 last year in taxes and that was after some very creative accounting to say the least. The fact that anyone working here illegally pays no taxes absolutely tears me up. I think that pool should have at least a few guidelines to combat this.
Johnnyt said:
I definitely see both sides - and am very sensitive to yours. It's my "opinion" that to take the sport to where it needs to be, you have to do things right early on, even if it's a grind for our players. Otherwise the media will question the legitimacy of professional tournament wins if the best players aren't playing (that's assuming the media even KNOWS of the event... which is a problem in itself).
Love them or hate them, the IPT was on to something. They made the finals of Reno look like Wrestle Mania's main-event.... the smoke, the lasers, the ring-announcer, the stack of money (no comment). That's what the casual know-nothing Joe wants to see on T.V. That's why poker took-off. If poker was the usual "casino table game" being televised, it'd be worse than pool as far as T.V. ratings. PRIME EXAMPLE: Phil Helmuth, Mike Mattusow, Devil Fish, etc... Win/Lose, all VERY entertaining!!
The only solution: Make pool popular with the viewing demographics and the pros will make a great living based on their personalities alone, forget their game. How to do that? Do what the IPT did but do it successfully. You're going to lose a lot of money building the market before you can reap the benefits.
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Big differences
Some big differences such as subsidized players and government programs from an early age come into play when dealing with players from some of the countries you mentioned, definitely not a level playing field regardless of the amount of talent all are born with.
Comparing pool to golf and tennis is also an apples and oranges thing. The fiftieth and I think even hundredth ranked player in golf and tennis is making a very nice living at it, no reason to restrict the playing field. As long as there is a living out there the player is free to go as far as their talent can take them. On the other hand the fiftieth ranked pool player and hundredth are simply hobby players. They think they are professionals but I'd bet a pretty penny that they are pursuing an expensive hobby according to the IRS, losing money many more years than not when comparing tournament winnings and expenses.
There are no huge chunks of money anywhere in sight for US pool so it does make sense to see that a substantial portion of what is available here in the US stays here if we want strong US players. As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, there is currently zero incentive for someone in the US to pursue a career in pool and tons of incentive for gifted individuals to select other activities where the money and yes the fame and respect are many times greater.
There are many other events that are only for people from one country or from one area of the world. Why would a US tour or tours set the sport back twenty years? What areas would it harm?
Hu
Some big differences such as subsidized players and government programs from an early age come into play when dealing with players from some of the countries you mentioned, definitely not a level playing field regardless of the amount of talent all are born with.
Comparing pool to golf and tennis is also an apples and oranges thing. The fiftieth and I think even hundredth ranked player in golf and tennis is making a very nice living at it, no reason to restrict the playing field. As long as there is a living out there the player is free to go as far as their talent can take them. On the other hand the fiftieth ranked pool player and hundredth are simply hobby players. They think they are professionals but I'd bet a pretty penny that they are pursuing an expensive hobby according to the IRS, losing money many more years than not when comparing tournament winnings and expenses.
There are no huge chunks of money anywhere in sight for US pool so it does make sense to see that a substantial portion of what is available here in the US stays here if we want strong US players. As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, there is currently zero incentive for someone in the US to pursue a career in pool and tons of incentive for gifted individuals to select other activities where the money and yes the fame and respect are many times greater.
There are many other events that are only for people from one country or from one area of the world. Why would a US tour or tours set the sport back twenty years? What areas would it harm?
Hu
SpiderWebComm said:
I too see both sides. If Americans could only shoot in American tournaments, then the reverse would be the complaint, that they needed more international exposure and weren't allowed the opportunity.
Just a comment about the $5 million figure....wouldn't some of those tournaments have been built up exactly because it had international fields? Sponsorship, audience size and participation of locals has swelled because they may see or play Efren, for instance.
OTH, the Canadians walk away with a lot of BCA Nationals and regionals money, however, they have their own Canadian regionals and nationals as well that Americans aren't allowed to play in. It isn't fair that they have double the opportunities.
State championships are the same way...the state champion doesn't even have to live in their state.
Actually, I will be running a State Mixed Scotch Doubles tournament in August and we won't require residency in WA either. 
It would be nice to see a couple of tournaments that were truly all US players, and then keep everything else open, including the tours.
Too bad a foundation couldn't be formed to assist our players with travel expenses and other intangibles like promotion, representation, etc.
Just a comment about the $5 million figure....wouldn't some of those tournaments have been built up exactly because it had international fields? Sponsorship, audience size and participation of locals has swelled because they may see or play Efren, for instance.
OTH, the Canadians walk away with a lot of BCA Nationals and regionals money, however, they have their own Canadian regionals and nationals as well that Americans aren't allowed to play in. It isn't fair that they have double the opportunities.
State championships are the same way...the state champion doesn't even have to live in their state.
Actually, I will be running a State Mixed Scotch Doubles tournament in August and we won't require residency in WA either. It would be nice to see a couple of tournaments that were truly all US players, and then keep everything else open, including the tours.
Too bad a foundation couldn't be formed to assist our players with travel expenses and other intangibles like promotion, representation, etc.
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Im 100% for a US Open national championships, I think all countries should have one to find out their best players, it happens in most other sports. As for closed regional tours, I can see both sides if done for the right reason. The two biggest tours on the planet are the EuroTour and the Guiness tour, 1 is open to anyone, 1 is closed to Asians. take your pick which is better or right or wrong.
Saying its just not fair seems a little bit of a stretch to say the least. Not many European players have expenses paid, NONE of the Brits do thats for sure. It didn't stop Appleton flying around the planet playing all comers or Boyes or Foldes flying to about 10 IPT qualifiers in the USA, I don't recall them crying about it. They paid believed in themselves, and got the rewards.
!
Sponsor or no sponsor how can it be harder for Americans based IN AMERICA to compete than Asians or Europeans who have the additional flight and travel expenses/hassles? Geez most the best players in the world are filipinos and most of them reached that level from down right poverty!
If they can do it why can't anyone?
Thats why I really admire young Shane VB, he's got his head down, put in the work, challenged everyone and ducked nobody over the last few years. He doesn't cheat or anything he justs gets on with it and is now seeing the rewards. I bet he absoloutely LOVES the challenge the foreign aliens bring and wouldnt have it any other way. Bravo SVB.
Just my 2 Guatemalan thingys
EDIT
Forgot to add if you closed the tour all the top players in the world would walk into the USA on a o class visa in a heart beat so would still be able to play. It's much more harder than that in Asia. SO it wouldnt really acheive anything if the money was big that is
Saying its just not fair seems a little bit of a stretch to say the least. Not many European players have expenses paid, NONE of the Brits do thats for sure. It didn't stop Appleton flying around the planet playing all comers or Boyes or Foldes flying to about 10 IPT qualifiers in the USA, I don't recall them crying about it. They paid believed in themselves, and got the rewards.
!
Sponsor or no sponsor how can it be harder for Americans based IN AMERICA to compete than Asians or Europeans who have the additional flight and travel expenses/hassles? Geez most the best players in the world are filipinos and most of them reached that level from down right poverty!
If they can do it why can't anyone?
Thats why I really admire young Shane VB, he's got his head down, put in the work, challenged everyone and ducked nobody over the last few years. He doesn't cheat or anything he justs gets on with it and is now seeing the rewards. I bet he absoloutely LOVES the challenge the foreign aliens bring and wouldnt have it any other way. Bravo SVB.
Just my 2 Guatemalan thingys
EDIT
Forgot to add if you closed the tour all the top players in the world would walk into the USA on a o class visa in a heart beat so would still be able to play. It's much more harder than that in Asia. SO it wouldnt really acheive anything if the money was big that is
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First off Being Pro American is NOT the same as being racist. So whoever called you that does not know of what they speak.JAM said:
I see nothing wrong with adding an All American Open to the existing tournament schedule. Just as long as existing tournaments are not changed.
Once again...I'm not saying that the touraments should be closed forever. I'm saying for now. Who knows maybe if the top 100 players were making a living here thet WOULD start their own organization. In the long run it has to be the pro players, not the promoters or TV sponsors that bring pool to the next level. But if more money is not put into the pot in US pool there will be no level or any great pool players to watch. Johnnyt
ShootingArts said:
This is freaking unbelievable....I cannot believe all the BS I am reading here. We (and yes I am a New Yorker) should then request all other sports organizations in the US a name change to "American PGA Tour, American NBA, American MLB, American WNBA, etc....
The reason why American players cannot play in oversees events is because mostly are sanctioned by the Federation of that particular country; therefore, these organizations (lets say the APBU, CPB, EPB, etc) may not allow American players in their tournaments because it is for that organizations' membership only.
Excuses, excuses, excuses. The Americans dominated the pool world because they were the only ones doing Pool tournaments at one time but when the other countries started their own leagues, organizations, and were obviously entering all "Open" events in the U.S., it was demonstrated that the "Americans" were no longer the "rulers" of the sport. Now the "Americans" are crying "wolf" because they can no longer handle the "international" field. What a freaking pity.
"If you cannot stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen......
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juegabillar said:
I did not say that the US players can't or don't hold their own with players from other countries. There is just not enough money in tournaments here to spread it all around the world anymore. Pool isn't golf, baseball, or any of the other sports you mentioned...were talking just pool here. And like someone else mentioned...there is plenty of money in those sports for everyone. Johnnyt
I don't see a problem with one tournament that's US only to see who the top player in our country is, but I don't think we should stop the overseas talent from playing others. I think a major problem with a US only tournament is sponsors. I don't think Brunswick, Olhausen, Diamond etc... would want to piss off the foreign players.
Why can't we, as a pool community sponsor our own to play overseas and compete. I'm not wealthy but I'd be willing to dump $20 a month into a pool to help sponsor an American player or more for tournaments. Let's help build our young talent so that one day we will have a dominant player again. Let's face it, if we had one player totally dominating pool in overseas tournaments pool would get back on the map. Look how tennis has fallen in America now that there isn't a Sampras, Agassi, Mcenroe(sp?) or Williams sister at the top... Americans love nothing more than seeing one of their own dominating. If the players from the Philipines were having average finishes here in the US they wouldn't be so popular at home either.
I don't know who could be responsible for the money, maybe Jay Helfert or someone else trusted and respected in this web community but if someone is willing to step up I'll paypal my donation ASAP to get it started.
Shane
Why can't we, as a pool community sponsor our own to play overseas and compete. I'm not wealthy but I'd be willing to dump $20 a month into a pool to help sponsor an American player or more for tournaments. Let's help build our young talent so that one day we will have a dominant player again. Let's face it, if we had one player totally dominating pool in overseas tournaments pool would get back on the map. Look how tennis has fallen in America now that there isn't a Sampras, Agassi, Mcenroe(sp?) or Williams sister at the top... Americans love nothing more than seeing one of their own dominating. If the players from the Philipines were having average finishes here in the US they wouldn't be so popular at home either.
I don't know who could be responsible for the money, maybe Jay Helfert or someone else trusted and respected in this web community but if someone is willing to step up I'll paypal my donation ASAP to get it started.
Shane
Follow the money.
The money in the USA attracts Asian and European players for now - esp. the women. The money and frequency of tourneys in Asia seems to be on the rise and may keep the Asians at home so that the USA and European players can keep more of the money - if it's about the money.
The money in the USA attracts Asian and European players for now - esp. the women. The money and frequency of tourneys in Asia seems to be on the rise and may keep the Asians at home so that the USA and European players can keep more of the money - if it's about the money.