Just going to vent some.....
- Thread starter Albatross Cues
- Start date
I can see both sides, customs have generally been viewed as any cue not production built & I also see the op's point in taking it a few steps further in a fitting. How the word is applied is semantics.
I also believe the op is onto something in that it can be a tremendous advantage to have a cue fitted so to speak. This is dependent upon the player actually knowing what he wants as there are many variables to be considered, herein lies the rub in that I believe only a small segment of players have really experimented with all the variables to find what they really like or what suits them or their style of play, most just find one that feels good to them, sometimes it's orchestrated, sometimes it's blind luck.
I am of the belief there are major advantages to having every facet detailed to fit a players likes & style of play.
Many years ago I had my cue made to very specific specs that were not the norm then. I wanted a 60" cue, just under 18.5 oz, 12.75 mm shafts, slightly longer taper than the standard pro taper, a thinner butt, leather wrap & ferrules made of black linen micarta, a 5/16x14 stainless piloted joint & at least 4 oz shafts. My cue maker & I discussed all these variables, why I wanted them but it wasn't a result of a fitting, it was me knowing what I wanted based on experimentation, finding things I liked in each of those variables & having my maker produce a cue incorporating all of them.
In my opinion I got lucky, the cue was not only beautiful, but responsive, when all the variables were put together it performed as I had hoped it would. Truth is it could have gone the other way. While I had assembled all the variables I wanted going in there was no guarantee that when put together they would meld together to feel and play as well as it does.
At the end of the day I think there is merit in the op's premise that there are distinct advantages to tailoring a cue to a customer prior to build but also that the success or lack of success of this venture is directly proportional to the player really knowing what he wants in all of those variables & that he or she came to those determinations through serious evaluation & not just picking something out of thin air without reflection. My cue maker still chuckles about my choice of ferrule material.
I also believe the op is onto something in that it can be a tremendous advantage to have a cue fitted so to speak. This is dependent upon the player actually knowing what he wants as there are many variables to be considered, herein lies the rub in that I believe only a small segment of players have really experimented with all the variables to find what they really like or what suits them or their style of play, most just find one that feels good to them, sometimes it's orchestrated, sometimes it's blind luck.
I am of the belief there are major advantages to having every facet detailed to fit a players likes & style of play.
Many years ago I had my cue made to very specific specs that were not the norm then. I wanted a 60" cue, just under 18.5 oz, 12.75 mm shafts, slightly longer taper than the standard pro taper, a thinner butt, leather wrap & ferrules made of black linen micarta, a 5/16x14 stainless piloted joint & at least 4 oz shafts. My cue maker & I discussed all these variables, why I wanted them but it wasn't a result of a fitting, it was me knowing what I wanted based on experimentation, finding things I liked in each of those variables & having my maker produce a cue incorporating all of them.
In my opinion I got lucky, the cue was not only beautiful, but responsive, when all the variables were put together it performed as I had hoped it would. Truth is it could have gone the other way. While I had assembled all the variables I wanted going in there was no guarantee that when put together they would meld together to feel and play as well as it does.
At the end of the day I think there is merit in the op's premise that there are distinct advantages to tailoring a cue to a customer prior to build but also that the success or lack of success of this venture is directly proportional to the player really knowing what he wants in all of those variables & that he or she came to those determinations through serious evaluation & not just picking something out of thin air without reflection. My cue maker still chuckles about my choice of ferrule material.
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Production cues are made in a factory by a company, and you can go to shops around the world and buy the same cue with that identical design.
Custom cues are made in a workshop by custom cue makers, mostly, but not in all cases to the specs requested by the customer.
There are blurred lines between the two of course.
No way I would consider that a predator / Mezz / Lucasi / etc cue which has been changed, weight, wrap, taper etc as a custom cue, it's a customized production cue. Just as I would not consider a Vollmer made to Michael's own design and specs a production cue.
Custom cues are made in a workshop by custom cue makers, mostly, but not in all cases to the specs requested by the customer.
There are blurred lines between the two of course.
No way I would consider that a predator / Mezz / Lucasi / etc cue which has been changed, weight, wrap, taper etc as a custom cue, it's a customized production cue. Just as I would not consider a Vollmer made to Michael's own design and specs a production cue.
Yay. Another custom vs production cue thread.
90% + of the tournaments/championships have been won with a production cue. Argue with that.
But, custom is better
90% + of the tournaments/championships have been won with a production cue. Argue with that.
But, custom is better
JC
Coos Cues
You can't fit a cue to a customer because it's about how it feels to them, period. And you will never know this or be able to judge it. I see lots of players with nice leather wraps who grip the cue by the butt sleeve for the most part. If you try to "fit" the cue to the customer based on what you think works it will likely be a fail more times than not. It's not wise to try to make a science out of an art in the case of pool cues.
Chris Hightower said something in his book to the effect of "make a cue that looks and feels good to you and there's a good chance it will look and feel good to some others too". That's about all there is to it.
IMO a custom cue is any cue that is one of one in design and materials. All others are production models.
JC
Yay. Another custom vs production cue thread.
90% + of the tournaments/championships have been won with a production cue. Argue with that.
But, custom is better
I'll argue. What percentage of cues produced in the last, say, 50 years are production cues?
If more then 90% does that then prove custom cues to be better?
gr. Dave
You make cues and you don't know the difference between a custom cue
and a production cue???
I know the difference between a legitimate post for discussion and pointless
trolling - guess which category you fall into?
Dale(it needed to be said)
Would you rather have a Tad or Cuetec?
Making subtle changes to a my standard design is about all that will bappen. I had a customer want a " euro taper" shaft, mistake. I told him it didnt fit my cues but did it anyway. A month later if that, i had to retaper the shaft because it didnt feel right.
I wont change my shaft taper now....period. If you want the butt a little slimmer or a little bigger....ok.....it still feels like my cue. Major changes on the other hand turn your cue into not your cue. Like Eric stated earlier, if the customer doesnt like the cue it becomes the makers fault not the customer. If as a maker you understand what small changes can be made and not change the feel of your cues or hit, then by all means do so but when the suggested changes take things out of your design parameters.....pass.
Thats why they are called custom cues, why else do we have so many cue makers making cues that hit and feel unique?
I wont change my shaft taper now....period. If you want the butt a little slimmer or a little bigger....ok.....it still feels like my cue. Major changes on the other hand turn your cue into not your cue. Like Eric stated earlier, if the customer doesnt like the cue it becomes the makers fault not the customer. If as a maker you understand what small changes can be made and not change the feel of your cues or hit, then by all means do so but when the suggested changes take things out of your design parameters.....pass.
Thats why they are called custom cues, why else do we have so many cue makers making cues that hit and feel unique?
Players change their games all the time.
Just imagine one changing his bridge length. Will he need a new cue?
Players tweak their stroke often. If one went from pendulum to piston,
does he need a new cue?
Just imagine one changing his bridge length. Will he need a new cue?
Players tweak their stroke often. If one went from pendulum to piston,
does he need a new cue?
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Lets clarify, Erfen Reyes....can play with a broom handle or a custom cue or anything for that matter and still be a world beater. Any cue is only as good as the player that wields it.
True words. It's the Indian, not the arrow. However, a smart Indian uses the best arrows he can possibly get.
Speaking of changing his game, Efren won world titles with his $15 61"-21 oz cue. It had a toothpick for shafts too.
Now, he uses normal cues.
Thats why there are so many cue makers today, what is the best for one indian many not be the best for another.
Assuming both are straight and there's no " taper roll" , sorry but I had to go there, I'm in a smartazz mood today.
There are so many "cuemakers" today because of the readily available affordable machinery as well as blanks and all the other parts needed to assemble a cue and the how-to books and DVDs to get the process started.
That's a thread all its own. I believe there are so many cue makers because cue makers begin as cue nuts who have a genuine interest in all things cues. While available machinery & info is a factor, I do not think it's the deciding factor.
It is a separate thread and I was reluctant to post my prior response because of that.
I agree, except that it is the low entrance fee allows those lacking talent or design-sense to build cues.
Aloha Eric
Thank you for taking the time to post this.
I appreciate your insiteful post here and appreciate you professional candor on this.
I completely understand what you are posting here, and agree with the majority of your post. As cue makers we do spend a lot of time money and effort to develope the processes to make a funtional cue, let alone a beautiful one. Test and trial runs, trial and error until the process is something we feel comfortable with. In a way this by itself limits us to our own set of standardization. We all have a specific way in which we prefer to make our cues. Low to high end, pushing the boundaries of our specific skill set in order to make a quality product for the customer.
The idea of a "Custom fitted" cue is just pushing the envelope that much further. Allowing us to move out of our comfort zone or bubble, for lack of a better term. Yes the processes involved will be tough, I do not doubt that for a second. But the customer is the one who will benefit in the end run. And I would never allow a customer to completely design the cue. This would be a headache waiting to happen. But they come to a cue maker for a reason. For the most part they are not aware of the little nuances that make for a good hitting cue, or the woods involved...ect. let alone an "artistic" cue. That is why they hire a cue maker to do it for them.
Now if there was a way to get some qualified instructors to help out in this it would be great. With qualified instruction and the cue maker combined, the fitment of the cue to the person should not be to difficut. They are both able to look at the player/customer and give them the best idea as to what would be the best fit. Maybe even have some test cues developed just for this purpose. It's easy to swap out different shafts. Make a selection of butts and shafts in different lengths, have some weight screws handy and see what works. Most will already know the type of tips/tapers they prefer by this stage in the players advancement, as I don't see the laymen player stepping up and spending this kind of money and time in the early years of their game, but who knows. The other aspects of the cue can be gathered by just asking question of the fit/feel of said test cue during a fitting. Other taper lengths and tip size are mostly person preferance, so it would not be to hard to gather that information.
As far as a collective knowlege base, I see this as an addition to, and not a detriment of. Yes it might take some makers out of their peverbial comfort zone, but isn't this exactly what we are doing to the customer by only offering one standard length? People as a whole like options, and have less trouble spending their money if those said option can become reality. Cues have been relatively unchanged over the past hundred years or so, I just feel that fitting a cue to the player may bring around a much needed change in this area of the game. Then maybe cues would be truly "Custom" for the player.
Again thank you for your post.
Aloha
Will you see each client play and evaluate his needs?
Nobody is preventing you from giving it a go. I encourage you to try anything you take an interest in. My post was more of an answer as to why I do not follow your ideas, as well as some insight to what you may encounter if you go down that path. To me, a 58", 19oz., 13mm, 19in. balance point cue is a baseline standard from which customization begins. If you have no baseline, how do you know where to begin? The vast majority of players are already accustomed to & comfortable with 58" cues. The closest you can keep to that baseline, the more players you will appeal to. It comes around to that old proverb where you can sell an apple for $1 & make some money. I sell an apple for $.50 and make a lot more money. Point being you'll sell a whole lot more 58" cues than a "custom fitted" cue. As noble as your intentions may be, it's a proven failed plan. Just ask Eddie Wheat.